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Patriots 2023 Season Thread
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Post by jmei on Oct 24, 2023 14:22:10 GMT -5
Couple random thoughts:
J.C. Jackson trade proving to be a good one so far. He's been their best CB and has been legitimately above average against some good opposing WRs. They still really lack depth but that should change when Jo. Jones gets healthy. They probably still need to restructure his contract ($14.4M cap hit next year is too much even for this version of Jackson) but he might stick around and is young enough (will be 29 next year) to be part of a good defensive core.
Their big offseason moves on offense (extending D. Parker, signing Smith-Schuster and Gesicki, what they did with the OL) have still stunk, but they have a nice little defensive core between Bentley, Duggar, Peppers, Wise, Barmore, Uche, White, etc. (not to mention Judon and Gonzalez). That unit remains too good for this team to really bottom out this season.
Locking in Onwenu at RT alone is worth whatever worse draft position they might be in. It's disappointing that it's taken so long to put him back there but better late than never. Ditto for more Bourne/Douglas and less Parker/Smith-Schuster.
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Post by texs31 on Oct 24, 2023 16:38:57 GMT -5
NE waiving Cunningham. Earlier reports suggested a Flowers activation so they needed the spot.
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Post by texs31 on Oct 24, 2023 16:41:16 GMT -5
NE waiving Cunningham. Earlier reports suggested a Flowers activation so they needed the spot. And now Flowers is getting waived so . . . |
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Post by texs31 on Oct 24, 2023 16:51:47 GMT -5
Some speculation it's Raeger who could now get the promotion.
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Post by GyIantosca on Oct 24, 2023 17:18:57 GMT -5
I hate doing this but his G.M. WORK is really not impressive. He basically added nothing to the offense line. I dont really understand. I not impressed with the wide recievers. Basically poor building. They need BB to just concentrate on being a coach. Bedard said Groh is a good college football talent evaulator. But there missing a pro-personnel guy.Or Groh hasnt mastered that part of the job.
These last 2 years i'm really shaking my head at some of these decisions.
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Post by texs31 on Oct 24, 2023 18:39:46 GMT -5
And yet, if Coach BB had put Onwenu at RT earlier (at least when he was healthy) we probably wouldn't be as upset at the lack of additions.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Oct 24, 2023 18:51:04 GMT -5
And yet, if Coach BB had put Onwenu at RT earlier (at least when he was healthy) we probably wouldn't be as upset at the lack of additions. that really is the funny part of this- we had the solution to make the line tolerable right in front of us. I’d say the majority of the fan base wanted it too. And with a tolerable line this offense seems to be relatively functional- especially when Bourne and Douglas are both out there There are some reasons for optimism. We may have dug too deep of a hole though |
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 24, 2023 20:16:49 GMT -5
And yet, if Coach BB had put Onwenu at RT earlier (at least when he was healthy) we probably wouldn't be as upset at the lack of additions. that really is the funny part of this- we had the solution to make the line tolerable right in front of us. I’d say the majority of the fan base wanted it too. And with a tolerable line this offense seems to be relatively functional- especially when Bourne and Douglas are both out there There are some reasons for optimism. We may have dug too deep of a hole though It’s probably fair to say that everyone being hurt over the summer hurt their ability to make these proper evaluations in time. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 24, 2023 20:57:45 GMT -5
that really is the funny part of this- we had the solution to make the line tolerable right in front of us. I’d say the majority of the fan base wanted it too. And with a tolerable line this offense seems to be relatively functional- especially when Bourne and Douglas are both out there There are some reasons for optimism. We may have dug too deep of a hole though It’s probably fair to say that everyone being hurt over the summer hurt their ability to make these proper evaluations in time. Onwenu has experience and played RT darn well before. They asked him last Wednesday per reports, that's how he looked after a few practices. I think Bill deserves a lot of blame on this one, most of us wanted this last year! |
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 25, 2023 5:18:12 GMT -5
It’s probably fair to say that everyone being hurt over the summer hurt their ability to make these proper evaluations in time. Onwenu has experience and played RT darn well before. They asked him last Wednesday per reports, that's how he looked after a few practices. I think Bill deserves a lot of blame on this one, most of us wanted this last year! I’m on of those people who wanted him there and wanted to keep Mason so I get it but the entire line being injured all summer certainly hurt their ability to see everyone and evaluate their best places. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 25, 2023 8:03:16 GMT -5
I just don't understand what injuries to other players have to do with anything at RT. They moved on from Reiff at RT in preseason, Sow was horrible. They traded for players, Lowe was horrible. Harris was pulled after a game or two.
It's easier to find good OG than RTs, given how Onwenu looked before and how he looks after a few practices after like 1.3 years of the RT killing you I don't understand giving Bill a break!
They went out and drafted two OG and a center, no OT. That only made sense if Onwenu to RT was in play.
This should have been done last year after Wynn got injured. Just blows my mind, the Patriots had to Bottom out for this to happen. People talking about firing Bill, worst start of his career, offense in shambles for 1.3 years before he did what most people wanted to start last year.
This is a rare case of Bill the coach hurting Bill the GM, usually its the other way.
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Post by rjp313jr on Oct 25, 2023 8:23:54 GMT -5
Well you had a player who didn’t want to play at RT. That same player also wasn’t available the entire offseason including week 1 so you had zero opportunity to see the line in full together. Lowe also just got here and Anderson missed the entire offseason as well so i reject the premise that they knew those guys would fail so miserably.
It’s entirely fair to say they didn’t have a chance to evaluate the line properly before the season due to injuries.
And again, I never wanted Onwenu to move back to guard from right tackle but it’s clear he prefers to play guard.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 26, 2023 5:56:36 GMT -5
Where is this Onwenu doesn't want to play RT? Josh McDaniels in Mac Jones rookie year asked why it took so long to move Onwenu to RT with Trent Brown out doesn't mention that. Per recent reports, when asked to move he had no problem with it. Years of Patriot beat reporters talking about moving him there, I haven't seen one of them say he doesn't want to play there. Which is something Mike Reiss and Evan Lazar should know if it's common knowledge.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 26, 2023 6:10:30 GMT -5
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Oct 26, 2023 6:59:47 GMT -5
Playing devil's advocate. Agreed they don't pick, but Trent Brown went through the same thing and he's someone who doesn't care about speaking his mind. Wasn't his whole thing is that he was under paid to play LT when he said he was signed to play guard? I think 99% of players are going to just say what they think is right to avoid any distractions. He might publicly say one thing, but internally he could be annoyed. Not saying that's the case, just that I take what players say publicly as a grain of salt. |
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Oct 26, 2023 7:52:19 GMT -5
Playing devil's advocate. Agreed they don't pick, but Trent Brown went through the same thing and he's someone who doesn't care about speaking his mind. Wasn't his whole thing is that he was under paid to play LT when he said he was signed to play guard? I think 99% of players are going to just say what they think is right to avoid any distractions. He might publicly say one thing, but internally he could be annoyed. Not saying that's the case, just that I take what players say publicly as a grain of salt. I don’t believe Trent had any plans to play guard, I think he was expecting to play RT instead of LT though |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Oct 26, 2023 9:37:17 GMT -5
Playing devil's advocate. Agreed they don't pick, but Trent Brown went through the same thing and he's someone who doesn't care about speaking his mind. Wasn't his whole thing is that he was under paid to play LT when he said he was signed to play guard? I think 99% of players are going to just say what they think is right to avoid any distractions. He might publicly say one thing, but internally he could be annoyed. Not saying that's the case, just that I take what players say publicly as a grain of salt. I don’t believe Trent had any plans to play guard, I think he was expecting to play RT instead of LT though Maybe that's what it was. I remember him complaining about being underpaid and being lied to about the position he would be playing. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 26, 2023 12:38:46 GMT -5
Yeah Trent Brown needs to go! He signed with Patriots because we gave him biggest offer in free agency and raved about how much he likes playing for Bill. He was signed to that huge contract by Raiders to play LT and ended up playing a bunch of RT. Did he give money back? His play gets better the minute he gets more money. Is that what last year was? Poor play because he felt underpaid?
Onwenu is on rookie deal and playing RT and RG at crazy high levels does nothing but help him in free agency
Want an example how PFF grades aren't perfect, look at this weeks. They rate everyone crazy high on OL. Very good pass blocking, best of year. That being said, poor run blocking against one of the worst teams at stoping the run in the league. Might have looked good for our team, but well below the numbers they were giving up on the year.
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Post by jmei on Oct 26, 2023 15:52:14 GMT -5
Eh, Onwenu was generally a pretty good guard as well and I think the jury is still out on whether he's a better RT or RG. It was really only the fact that their other RT options were almost unplayably bad that forced their hand into moving him to RT.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 27, 2023 7:14:15 GMT -5
In 12 games his rookie year he was the 8th highest rated OT per PFF. That's the whole point of moving him to RT. For the most part for the last two years RT has killed you. It's easier to find OG than OT.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Oct 27, 2023 14:22:54 GMT -5
PFF is not a trump card. They are a useful data point. No more.
Btw, from this past week: CLE Denzel Ward grades a 66 but (Redzone only) I saw him beat for a 59 yard TD (that I doubt went to his account) in 1st Q. His team gave up 38 points, so I expect he had more unfavorable activity.
Closer to home, Brian Baldinger did a video breakdown highlighting what a good job J Bentley did shadowing Josh Allen, preventing some scrambles and providing effective support in others. Yet PFF said he was our 2nd worst defensive player?
So if PFF says Big Mike is a great RT, I'll say, Okay. But when BB decides he should be better moved inside, I'll say, Yup. I'll not say, But PFF said.
Not to pile on PFF, but I was curious that through Week 6 we had like three of the bottom 5-6 DTs out of 100+? So, if our DTs are that terrible how are teams not gashing us on the ground? And if out DTs are that terrible (100-something in a 32 team league is "terrible") and 4 of out top 5 CBs have missed extensive time, plus no Judon (and now Uche or K White) how are we a top 9 defense (yards per game)?
My contention is they might be earnest about their work but they truly don't know what the assignment was (often, not always).
Case in point: last night's Hail Mary attempt, TB v BUF:
I just listened to very astute, former NFL QB Rich Gannon, explain what a poor job the receivers did, especially Godwin (didn't turn around to locate the ball) after explaining what a good job Baker Mayfield did throwing the ball. He broke it down as a former QB who, presumably, sat in many meetings & practices on how to execute the play. So he KNOWS.
Earlier, I read a thread (below) from former NFL WR Donte Stallworth detailing the responsibilities of each of the WRs on the play and explaining that Godwin did EXACTLY what he was supposed to do. He's the catch the ricochet guy, who's supposed to be facing the other receiver. Donte, as a former NFL receiver, and one who ran these Hail Mary routes, KNOWS.
So who's right, Gannon or Stallworth? And if these guys don't KNOW, how the heck is PFF supposed to grade that play?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 28, 2023 10:39:11 GMT -5
PFF is like DRS, it can be rather bad in small sample sizes. In larger ones it's very good and almost never wrong on the general value of a player. It rates Onwenu very well at both positions. Maybe he's better at RG, it doesn't matter unless you have a very good RT. OT that are good are harder to find than OG, that's just a fact. This isn’t something crazy, he passes the eye test at both positions. His impact on the game is bigger at RT because we have had garbage there. That's likely the best pass protection from our OL in the last two years against a very good team and defense. The debate isn't what position he might be slightly better at, it's what is best for the team.
Did anyone notice any difference when Onwenu came back and played RG? I don't think he's fully healthy and he was playing his worst football this year. He hasn't been the road grader in the run game he's known for. His pass protection at RT looked awesome. Brown missed a few snaps last game and Lowe was letting guys by every down, you noticed him out for even a few plays!
Bentley was picked on in the passing game by Allen. I also mentioned Bills are not using Allen to run as much, trying to establish a true running game instead. Allen didn't take off till that last TD drive, game on the line. So if you are grading Bentley like he's stopping Allen running and not looking at everything else, that's the person doing its problem. A PFF grade looks at everything, they grade each play. Doesn't mean Bentley didn't do somethings well, he was picked on in the passing game. It's like grading Bryant based on run D, his strength and overlooking his pass D, where he allows like 80% completion rate and QB rating of 110.
Teams do things differently, we know this, Patriots do many things differently than other teams. That's all the Gannon and Stallworth comments prove. They're both right about what their teams did. Which ones right or better? That's personal opinion, otherwise everyone would do things the same way. Both those former players know 100% what their teams taught WR to do in that situation and it was clearly different.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Oct 28, 2023 13:35:18 GMT -5
Bentley got beat by Cooks for a big gain (on a great route & better throw -- it's not like he was wide open) but he was hardy "picked on." Baldy agrees:
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Oct 28, 2023 13:35:53 GMT -5
More Baldy on Bentley:
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 29, 2023 10:29:28 GMT -5
Allen does a great job going after Bentley in Coverage. Going off memory Bentley was targeted like 5 times, bunch of completions to Bills rookie TE along with that pass to RB. It wasn’t one pass and was easily the most he's been targeted and allowed yards all season. |
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