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9/18-9/20 Red Sox @ Rangers Series Thread
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Post by yuchangclan on Sept 20, 2023 15:45:09 GMT -5
Crazy how much Alex Verdugo's season is saved by his first month and a half. He's .254, .302, .408, .710 since May 22nd. When the season started, it looked like he was ready to finally have that big breakout season and silence all his critics(myself included). But the last couple months have just been a brutal slog for him. I’m hoping the new regime trades him to a team where he’s a better fit. I’ve seen enough.
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Post by manfred on Sept 20, 2023 15:47:20 GMT -5
That’s a bit unfair. You could as easily say “just ask the Angels about having tying up their entire payroll in two of baseball’s best players who can't stay on the field… that must be a mistake.” Right. But that doesn’t make it a universal. How are the Dodgers looking?
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Post by incandenza on Sept 20, 2023 15:47:36 GMT -5
I don't know. I keep looking at renderings of the new Rays ballpark and I'm not fired up. The neighborhood looks cool I guess. But the inside of the park still kind of looks like a mall where boy bands cut their teeth. Sorry to put this in a game thread. It's just there's not much to say about this game. Disagree that the neighborhood looks cool. It's the kind of development that looks fun and quirky in renderings but in person is going to seem sterile and lifeless because the structures aren't coherently organized and nothing in the proposed designs of the buildings is going to offer a feeling of accommodation and comfort that defines all good urbanism. (Sorry, I just... have opinions on this topic.)
Agree on the boy band mall aesthetic of the stadium itself. Well put.
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Post by yuchangclan on Sept 20, 2023 15:56:19 GMT -5
Trade deadline was August 1 - team was 57-50 today is Sept 20 - team will be 75-78 - so, team has gone 18-28 since the trade deadline This has always been and will continue to be a myth. Just ask the angels that “buying” does anything to help the team It may, or may not, be a myth. I don’t think the 2023 Angels conclusively prove anything, however. That’s like me saying the Braves acquiring Fred McGriff at the deadline in 1993 conclusively proves that it DOES work. It’s probably more about the “who” involved in these deals that makes a difference. How about the Sox moving Nomar for Cabrera/Mientkiewicz in 2004? Did that work out?
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Post by fenwaydouble on Sept 20, 2023 16:00:01 GMT -5
Right. But that doesn’t make it a universal. How are the Dodgers looking? But I don't think the point was really that deadline buying is universally useless. It's just that it's dumb to argue that deadline buying is universally good and that the reason we suck right now is that we didn't buy at the deadline. People can say Bloom didn't give the team enough reinforcements, but that argument would be a lot stronger if the team was right in the mix and losing heartbreakers. Instead, they're getting their teeth kicked in every night. I'd have a lot more sympathy for the players if they looked even mildly interested in trying to win baseball games.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 20, 2023 16:01:35 GMT -5
I am amazed at the pretzels some of you twist yourselves into to deny reality. Me saying the team success plummeted two years in a row after the trade deadline is what happened. I said nothing about cause and effect, or made any comparison other teams. The records are the records.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,121
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Post by cdj on Sept 20, 2023 16:03:31 GMT -5
Bearclaw Astros game was the dagger, nothing else
Gotta be what, 6-15 since then (without looking)?
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Post by ephus on Sept 20, 2023 16:05:16 GMT -5
SILVER LINING ALERT. In his last three games, Rafaela has only struck out 3 times in 14 at bats. This grasping at short-sample-size straws brought to you by desperate need to salvage something positive.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 20, 2023 16:05:51 GMT -5
Great loss!
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Post by fenwaydouble on Sept 20, 2023 16:07:31 GMT -5
This has always been and will continue to be a myth. Just ask the angels that “buying” does anything to help the team It may, or may not, be a myth. I don’t think the 2023 Angels conclusively prove anything, however. That’s like me saying the Braves acquiring Fred McGriff at the deadline in 1993 conclusively proves that it DOES work. It’s probably more about the “who” involved in these deals that makes a difference. How about the Sox moving Nomar for Cabrera/Mientkiewicz in 2004? Did that work out?I'm glad you posted this, because I was just thinking about this deal today. I was old enough in '04 to be a passionate fan but not old enough to have a deep understanding of what was going on out there. Just scanning through Fangraphs pages, it's not at all clear that Cabrera and especially Mientkiewicz helped down the stretch more than Nomar would have - he had better second half numbers than Cabrera, and Mientkiewicz pretty much sucked.
Are we sure this trade really moved the needle? Would be curious to hear whether people believe it really did provide a necessary vibe shift or whether the legend of the Nomar trade has gotten overblown just because they happened to win without him.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 20, 2023 16:12:03 GMT -5
This has always been and will continue to be a myth. Just ask the angels that “buying” does anything to help the team It may, or may not, be a myth. I don’t think the 2023 Angels conclusively prove anything, however. That’s like me saying the Braves acquiring Fred McGriff at the deadline in 1993 conclusively proves that it DOES work. It’s probably more about the “who” involved in these deals that makes a difference. How about the Sox moving Nomar for Cabrera/Mientkiewicz in 2004? Did that work out? So Atlanta rebuilding the whole outfield wasn't the reason that they won their last title. I call BS.
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 20, 2023 16:17:00 GMT -5
It may, or may not, be a myth. I don’t think the 2023 Angels conclusively prove anything, however. That’s like me saying the Braves acquiring Fred McGriff at the deadline in 1993 conclusively proves that it DOES work. It’s probably more about the “who” involved in these deals that makes a difference. How about the Sox moving Nomar for Cabrera/Mientkiewicz in 2004? Did that work out?I'm glad you posted this, because I was just thinking about this deal today. I was old enough in '04 to be a passionate fan but not old enough to have a deep understanding of what was going on out there. Just scanning through Fangraphs pages, it's not at all clear that Cabrera and especially Mientkiewicz helped down the stretch more than Nomar would have - he had better second half numbers than Cabrera, and Mientkiewicz pretty much sucked.
Are we sure this trade really moved the needle? Would be curious to hear whether people believe it really did provide a necessary vibe shift or whether the legend of the Nomar trade has gotten overblown just because they happened to win without him.
Yeah, that trade sucked. I remember hitting refresh trying to figure out who the awesome prospect we must be getting was going to be.
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Post by scottysmalls on Sept 20, 2023 16:42:24 GMT -5
Crazy how much Alex Verdugo's season is saved by his first month and a half. He's .254, .302, .408, .710 since May 22nd. He's a had a weird year. Two absolutely ice cold months and otherwise a really good hitter. wRC+ by month: April - 130 May - 112 June - 130 July - 26 August - 119 September - 25 That's like JBJ level cold streaks, those are worse than Trevor Story has been this year, it's just his hot months have only been really good instead of face-melting. Every player gets hot and cold months, but going below 30 multiple times is definitely abnormal.
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Post by yuchangclan on Sept 20, 2023 16:46:41 GMT -5
It may, or may not, be a myth. I don’t think the 2023 Angels conclusively prove anything, however. That’s like me saying the Braves acquiring Fred McGriff at the deadline in 1993 conclusively proves that it DOES work. It’s probably more about the “who” involved in these deals that makes a difference. How about the Sox moving Nomar for Cabrera/Mientkiewicz in 2004? Did that work out?I'm glad you posted this, because I was just thinking about this deal today. I was old enough in '04 to be a passionate fan but not old enough to have a deep understanding of what was going on out there. Just scanning through Fangraphs pages, it's not at all clear that Cabrera and especially Mientkiewicz helped down the stretch more than Nomar would have - he had better second half numbers than Cabrera, and Mientkiewicz pretty much sucked.
Are we sure this trade really moved the needle? Would be curious to hear whether people believe it really did provide a necessary vibe shift or whether the legend of the Nomar trade has gotten overblown just because they happened to win without him.
Nomar had mostly checked out and was a sullen malcontent on the ‘04 team(rings a bell). And while Mientkiewicz wasn’t much more than a reliable glove at 1B, Cabrera brought a great attitude and energy to the ‘04 team. He was a perfect fit and exactly what they needed. In fact, they blew it letting him walk after that season and signing Renteria instead.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Sept 20, 2023 17:03:48 GMT -5
Bobby has an OPS above .900 just saying lol Glad to see him have a good game. HE always seemed like a hard worker to me. We on this board (me included) had pretty much written off Duran before this year. Hope Dalbec has a Duran like year next year if he is still in the system.
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Post by foreverred9 on Sept 20, 2023 17:12:38 GMT -5
I am amazed at the pretzels some of you twist yourselves into to deny reality. Me saying the team success plummeted two years in a row after the trade deadline is what happened. I said nothing about cause and effect, or made any comparison other teams. The records are the records. I still think it's important to clarify that the plummeting didn't start until the Bear Claw game. 13-12 post-deadline and pre-Bear Claw, 6-16 since. Only the LA Angels are worse.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 20, 2023 17:52:32 GMT -5
I am amazed at the pretzels some of you twist yourselves into to deny reality. Me saying the team success plummeted two years in a row after the trade deadline is what happened. I said nothing about cause and effect, or made any comparison other teams. The records are the records. I still think it's important to clarify that the plummeting didn't start until the Bear Claw game. 13-12 post-deadline and pre-Bear Claw, 6-16 since. Only the LA Angels are worse. Yes, but most of those were Royals, Tigers and Nationals - I still think looking at the big picture this team was not set up for success for 2 years running now. The fans deserve better. Anyway, I'm feeling "better" about nailing my 79 win prediction...sadly
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 20, 2023 18:42:43 GMT -5
I still think it's important to clarify that the plummeting didn't start until the Bear Claw game. 13-12 post-deadline and pre-Bear Claw, 6-16 since. Only the LA Angels are worse. More like Monkey Paw game, we got Bloom fired at long last but the team is now cursed.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,836
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2023 20:15:14 GMT -5
I didn't realize the Red Sox had an afternoon game (which says a lot about my 2023 level of interest), so I didn't watch. But I'm not thrilled to see that Cora left Bello in to give up eight runs. In fact, I'm disappointed that Bello is still being sent out there at all.
I mean he gave up six in the second inning and Cora sent him out there for the third? Cora might say the staff is so cooked that he can't afford to take a starter out after two innings. That's total BS. They can always call someone up for a few days to throw some garbage innings.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Sept 20, 2023 20:30:11 GMT -5
I was wondering when we've experienced this sort of stretch of downer seasons, 2019-2023 excepting the late season surge of 2021
2012, 2014-2015 (but we had that out of nowhere 2013)
1992-1997 wasn't pretty (except for 1995)
That's really it, starting looking at 1967 (which is when I jumped on the Red Sox train)
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,836
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2023 20:34:23 GMT -5
Bobby has an OPS above .900 just saying lol Glad to see him have a good game. HE always seemed like a hard worker to me. We on this board (me included) had pretty much written off Duran before this year. Hope Dalbec has a Duran like year next year if he is still in the system. They'll have a lousy-fielding 1B who hits LH, a lousy-fielding 3B who hits LH and probably a LHH DH (Yoshida). Bobby D. has a career 131 wRC+ vs. LHP. And which three positions is he capable of playing? Did someone say 1B, 3B and DH? Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! It just seems like a perfect fit.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Sept 20, 2023 20:36:15 GMT -5
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,836
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2023 20:40:51 GMT -5
I was wondering when we've experienced this sort of stretch of downer seasons, 2019-2023 excepting the late season surge of 2021 2012, 2014-2015 (but we had that out of nowhere 2013) 1992-1997 wasn't pretty (except for 1995) That's really it, starting looking at 1967 (which is when I jumped on the Red Sox train) They were under .500 in 1983, but people, including those who filled road ballparks when the Red Sox were in town, remained interested in them because it was the last chance to see Yaz. They didn't contend in '84 or '85. Then we had '86, but '87 was one of the crappiest, most unpleasant seasons in my lifetime. The stench of the previous year's WS meltdown just didn't dissipate.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Sept 20, 2023 20:54:01 GMT -5
Glad to see him have a good game. HE always seemed like a hard worker to me. We on this board (me included) had pretty much written off Duran before this year. Hope Dalbec has a Duran like year next year if he is still in the system. They'll have a lousy-fielding 1B who hits LH, a lousy-fielding 3B who hits LH and probably a LHH DH (Yoshida). Bobby D. has a career 131 wRC+ vs. LHP. And which three positions is he capable of playing? Did someone say 1B, 3B and DH? Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! It just seems like a perfect fit. Depends on if Turner comes back. If he does not, then your suggestion is basically that Dalbec replaces Turner. I have always liked Dalbec. But I thought he was pretty bad defensively at first. Moreover, he has not hit well in the Majors and thus having him replace Turner would mean there is a big risk in a significant drop on in production. Not everyone can rise from the ashes like Duran. I would prefer they resign Turner, trade Dalbec, and hope Blaze Jordan is ready to fill Turner's role when Turner retires. But of course Turner would have to agree to stay.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,836
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 20, 2023 21:00:49 GMT -5
They'll have a lousy-fielding 1B who hits LH, a lousy-fielding 3B who hits LH and probably a LHH DH (Yoshida). Bobby D. has a career 131 wRC+ vs. LHP. And which three positions is he capable of playing? Did someone say 1B, 3B and DH? Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! It just seems like a perfect fit. Depends on if Turner comes back. If he does not, then your suggestion is basically that Dalbec replaces Turner. I have always liked Dalbec. But I thought he was pretty bad defensively at first. Moreover, he has not hit well in the Majors and thus having him replace Turner would mean there is a big risk in a significant drop on in production. Not everyone can rise from the ashes like Duran. I would prefer they resign Turner, trade Dalbec, and hope Blaze Jordan is ready to fill Turner's role when Turner retires. But of course Turner would have to agree to stay. Well, not really replace Turner. Yoshi would be the DH most of the time. But against LHP you could work Bobby D. in at DH and either sit Yoshi or put him in LF (Yikes! I know.) to rest one of the many LHH OF on the roster. Or you have Bobby D. play 1B or 3B to give Casas or Devers a day off. It's just difficult to find a RHH hitter who mashes against LHP but who isn't good enough overall to play every day. Bobby D. is cheap and fits the need.
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