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Predicting The 2024 Opening Day Roster
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Post by Jimmy on Dec 23, 2023 10:26:53 GMT -5
I’m going to try again with Yammamoto off the market. This time I will also try to be UNDER the luxury tax threshold - personally I think it makes more sense to go over next year (with Sale off the books and another year of prospect development) rather than this year with a team that looks like it still has a long way to go. Per Red Sox Payroll, $47M to spend. MOVES: • Red Sox acquire Brandon Drury ($8.5M AAV) for Brayan Mata • Red Sox sign Jordan Montgomery 6/$150M w. Opt Out after Y3 ($25M AAV) • Red Sox acquire Braxton Garret (pre-arb) for Jarren Duran, Nick Yorke, and Tanner Houck • Red Sox sign Justin Turner (to the same exact contract he had last year, ~$12M AAV) [...] Thinking you can get Brandon Drury for an unproven relief pitcher with injury concerns and no options who had a 6.33 ERA and ten walks per 9 in AAA last year is interesting. He’s compiled a total of 3.9 WAR in 9 years in the league and making $9M on an expiring contract, point was it’s not going to cost a Top 10 prospect, fill in whatever name you’d like
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 23, 2023 12:00:11 GMT -5
I wonder if Langeliers or Gelof would be available in a trade with Oakland.
Langeliers had a 105 wRC+ in the 2nd half of the year, and is a RHB with a huge Pulled FB% making him a good fit for Fenway like Duvall. He would be an upgrade over Wong and he’s under control until 2029. If the bat develops far enough, if he was pushed off of C by Teel he could play some LF and DH.
Gelof has some pop, played a slightly above average 2B last year, has speed, and is a line drive hitter who I would consider more park neutral.
Neither would be cheap by any means, and Oakland might not want to trade them, but they’re not competing anytime soon.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Dec 23, 2023 12:08:10 GMT -5
I wonder if Langeliers or Gelof would be available in a trade with Oakland. Langeliers had a 105 wRC+ in the 2nd half of the year, and is a RHB with a huge Pulled FB% making him a good fit for Fenway like Duvall. He would be an upgrade over Wong and he’s under control until 2029. If the bat develops far enough, if he was pushed off of C by Teel he could play some LF and DH. Gelof has some pop, played a slightly above average 2B last year, has speed, and is a line drive hitter who I would consider more park neutral. Neither would be cheap by any means, and Oakland might not want to trade them, but they’re not competing anytime soon. Gelof would be cool but he’s probably still too cost-controlled for the A’s to even really consider it. I’d be pretty out on Langeliers, would seem like a very marginal upgrade over Wong if an upgrade at all and I don’t know if I’d like the bat enough anywhere outside of catcher.
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keninten
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Post by keninten on Dec 24, 2023 1:55:27 GMT -5
I like the Sox opening day roster better than the yankees right now. Especially the pitching staff both in the pen and rotation. The lineup favors us at 3B and 1B. It`s a push at SS and C. They have a big advantage in the OF and 2B which is where the Sox are trying to improve. I also like the better depth the Sox have. Plus our payroll is in better shape. I`m still pretty optimistic this off season can go good.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 24, 2023 2:04:34 GMT -5
Adding to that lineup, Rosenthall and other sources say the Sox are indeed in on Teoscar. We shall see, but he mashed at Fenway and another 25-30HR couldn’t hurt despite the K/BB issues. As a righty OF/DH is he as good a fit as Justin Turner?
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Dec 24, 2023 8:18:32 GMT -5
Thinking you can get Brandon Drury for an unproven relief pitcher with injury concerns and no options who had a 6.33 ERA and ten walks per 9 in AAA last year is interesting. Drury makes all sense in the world for a rebuilding team to move but the Angels often don't make much sense so I'm not convinced he's even available but I agree certainly not for Mata alone. This guy suggests the Angels could move 2b/UTIL Luis Rengifo, who played more 2b than anything last year: "Rengifo, 27 in February, is coming off the best season of his career in 2023. After entering the All Star break with a mediocre .219/.312/.326 slash line, the switch-hitter caught fire down the stretch with a .318/.374/.587 the rest of the way until his season came to an end due to a torn biceps tendon that ended up requiring surgery. With Rengifo expected to be ready for Spring Training, however, it’s easy to see why rival clubs would be interested in his services. Overall, Rengifo posted a solid 114 wRC+ while playing passable defense all around the diamond, with time spent at second base, third base, shortstop, and all three outfield spots over the course of the 2023 season. That positional flexibility paired with a solid bat would make Rengifo a worthwhile addition for most any team, and the fact that he can be controlled for two seasons surely makes him all the more enticing for rival clubs, and the presence of Brandon Drury could allow the Angels to replace Rengifo at the keystone fairly seamlessly." www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/12/several-angels-players-reportedly-drawing-trade-interest.html
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Post by costpet on Dec 24, 2023 9:52:12 GMT -5
I wonder why so many people are intent on trading Duran. When going good, he sparks the whole lineup. Perfect lead off hitter. His defense improved last year. Any kind of contact could be a double. If he’s injury free, he’s a big asset. So, leave him alone.
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Post by chaimtime on Dec 24, 2023 13:02:27 GMT -5
I wonder why so many people are intent on trading Duran. When going good, he sparks the whole lineup. Perfect lead off hitter. His defense improved last year. Any kind of contact could be a double. If he’s injury free, he’s a big asset. So, leave him alone. You need to trade something to get something and I’d rather trade him than Casas, Bello, Mayer, Anthony, or Teel. If one of Rafaela or Duran can get a deal for a good young pitcher done, I’m not losing sleep over it, as much as I like both of those guys.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Dec 24, 2023 13:28:31 GMT -5
I wonder why so many people are intent on trading Duran. When going good, he sparks the whole lineup. Perfect lead off hitter. His defense improved last year. Any kind of contact could be a double. If he’s injury free, he’s a big asset. So, leave him alone. When our highest paid player routinely jogs to 1st base it is a joy to watch a player "hump it" every time the ball is put in play. I'm willing to pay for that experience with the occasional outfield miscue. Plus, he might get better.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Dec 24, 2023 13:51:46 GMT -5
I wonder why so many people are intent on trading Duran. When going good, he sparks the whole lineup. Perfect lead off hitter. His defense improved last year. Any kind of contact could be a double. If he’s injury free, he’s a big asset. So, leave him alone. When our highest paid player routinely jogs to 1st base it is a joy to watch a player "hump it" every time the ball is put in play. I'm willing to pay for that experience with the occasional outfield miscue. Plus, he might get better. With his physical blessing of speed, Duran should be a gifted outfielder. What he could be taught is the thinking part of the game, slow the game down in his mind. I think, through observation, that he really struggles with that in CF. Too many options to process perhaps. Maybe RF could be a better fit. Maybe Dewey Evans could come in and work with him like he did with Verdugo last year. This time last year, Duran was right there with Dalbec as a DFA candidate. Then something special happened. Count me in for keeping him around to see where that magic leads him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 24, 2023 13:57:39 GMT -5
I wonder why so many people are intent on trading Duran. When going good, he sparks the whole lineup. Perfect lead off hitter. His defense improved last year. Any kind of contact could be a double. If he’s injury free, he’s a big asset. So, leave him alone. I get why he's considered tradeable but he is one of the few that I really have come to enjoy watching. He plays the game at 120 MPH. Singles are a threat to become doubles. Walks or singles are threats to become stolen bases. The guy could even score from 2b on a wild pitch. He is electrifying to watch. Guys with his kind of useful speed are not plentiful and without him the Sox are mostly station to station. Hamilton does have his speed but is not likely to be a regular unless he hits and fields enough to claim the 2b job which I'm doubtful of as I think the Sox will go in a different direction. My only real worry about Duran is that he can easily get hurt with the way he plays. Ellsbury got hurt occasionally, especially when guys ran into him, but his speed felt more controlled while Duran plays like a guy whose hair is on fire and more prone to risking his navy seal body to injury. Hope he stays healthy because he has shown the ability to adapt and learn and has become an enjoyable player to watch
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Post by SlugLife on Dec 26, 2023 9:03:10 GMT -5
I wonder why so many people are intent on trading Duran. When going good, he sparks the whole lineup. Perfect lead off hitter. His defense improved last year. Any kind of contact could be a double. If he’s injury free, he’s a big asset. So, leave him alone. As someone who very much wants to trade Duran, I would summarize it this way: 1. He's a classic "sell high" player who we've already seen bottom out in Boston 2. The future core of this team is young, left-handed hitters (Devers, Casas, Mayer, Anthony, Teel) and Duran has a noticeable platoon split 3. He's not a strong enough defender in center field, he doesn't have the arm for right field, and his best position, left field, is one of the few positions where the Sox could add a right-handed power hitter to balance the future left-leaning core At a time when the franchise has pressing needs, he's exactly the kind of redundant young talent you look to move for starting pitching or right-handed power. Teams that might be in the market for a cost-controlled left fielder include Cleveland, Seattle, Houston, LAA, Oakland, Miami, Pittsburgh, San Diego, and Washington.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 26, 2023 9:45:34 GMT -5
I see both sides of the Duran argument. The Red Sox need to undo some of the LH heaviness of the lineup and replacing an OF spot could be a way to do it. They also need to get some of the bad defense off the field. Replacing Duran with a better defender would help there too.
They are short on options for either of these two goals because Raffy and Casas are big offensive performers who aren't going anywhere. Abreu showed promise as a potential high-OBP, moderate slugging bat with decent defense in his short time with the ML team.
The DH spot should be an obvious spot to add a RH bat. But that's clogged with Yoshi, who has an untradeable contract.
Duran is also cheap and electrifies the offense when he's right. With our SP needs, which will cost money to solve because the farm isn't going to produce anything big there in the near future, it'd be tough to trade a cost-controlled talent like Duran.
But one of Duran, Little Raffy or Abreu is likely to be traded by the time Roman Anthony is ready. SP projects that as mid-2025.
So, to be forward-looking it's worthwhile, IMO, to shop Duran and see what we can get for him before he hits arb.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 26, 2023 10:38:23 GMT -5
Duran is in line for major regression, I wouldn’t not be surprised at all if he isn’t even a 1 WAR player next year
My hunch is the whole league feels this way which is probably why we haven’t traded him
His BABIP was extremely high, his xWOBA was pretty low nothing to me says he will be improving or repeating what he did last season
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Post by teddyballgame9 on Dec 26, 2023 10:44:58 GMT -5
Does anyone know more about Duran’s defensive profile at 2B? To me it solves two problems, it allows Rafaela to play CF/RF while keeping Durans speed in the line up. It’s cost effective and allows that money that would go towards the Merrifield of the world to be spent on pitching. I think we could live with a Duran/Valdez platoon and Duran is still a 4/5th OF. I’m guessing since they haven’t mentioned trying this, there must be a reason but not sure if anyone has more insight on defense in the infield?
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 26, 2023 10:53:01 GMT -5
Duran is in line for major regression, I wouldn’t not be surprised at all if he isn’t even a 1 WAR player next year My hunch is the whole league feels this way which is probably why we haven’t traded him His BABIP was extremely high, his xWOBA was pretty low nothing to me says he will be improving or repeating what he did last season Definitely all true. His BABIP was extraordinarilly high at .381. While I suspect that BABIP will be a strength for him due to his speed, that number is not sustainable. He's like too many other guys we have on the field in that his defensive deficiencies cannibalize his offensive value. B-Ref and FG have him at 2.1 and 2.4 WAR respectively. I would expect those numbers to be higher for a CF who had a 121 OPS-plus and 120 wRC+ and was 24 for 26 in SB. It's a tough call whether to shop him or keep him. The offensive energy he brings is tantalizing. But there are reasons to move him. I also agree with your point about other teams seeing him as a regression candidate.
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Post by chaimtime on Dec 26, 2023 11:12:38 GMT -5
Duran is in line for major regression, I wouldn’t not be surprised at all if he isn’t even a 1 WAR player next year My hunch is the whole league feels this way which is probably why we haven’t traded him His BABIP was extremely high, his xWOBA was pretty low nothing to me says he will be improving or repeating what he did last season Definitely all true. His BABIP was extraordinarilly high at .381. While I suspect that BABIP will be a strength for him due to his speed, that number is not sustainable. He's like too many other guys we have on the field in that his defensive deficiencies cannibalize his offensive value. B-Ref and FG have him at 2.1 and 2.4 WAR respectively. I would expect those numbers to be higher for a CF who had a 121 OPS-plus and 120 wRC+ and was 24 for 26 in SB. It's a tough call whether to shop him or keep him. The offensive energy he brings is tantalizing. But there are reasons to move him. I also agree with your point about other teams seeing him as a regression candidate. Thats a 3.5/4 WAR pace over 600 PAs, I don’t think your thesis stands up. Ideally he’d take another step forward defensively but it’s not like he’s totally abject out there. The BABIP isn’t sustainable, but he hit the ball hard with average whiff/chase numbers. If he can do that the speed will help his production play up from the batted ball numbers. I don’t think the path to putting up a .270/.325/.425 line is especially hard to make out. And I think it’s worth keeping in mind that a suite of rule changes were made specifically to benefit players like him. It’ll probably take some time to accumulate enough data for the projection systems and expected stats models to catch up with those changes.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 26, 2023 11:48:45 GMT -5
I get the thought of dealing Duran it takes something to get something and he's seemingly expendable but I do question how much value he has. If he can be the headliner for a young starter then I'm all for it. I don't know that he brings that back yet though.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Dec 26, 2023 11:59:57 GMT -5
One thing I've changed my stance on a lot in recent years, partially due to insight here and on the podcasts is how high/low a trade value can really go.
Another team isn't look at a guys stat line and thinking "OMG this guy is really good" without knowing their warts, knowing what has gone wrong, could go wrong, or what lies beneath. Sure, Durans value might be at an all time high, it could also be at a low too.
With that said, I'm not against trading Duran, as I'm not against trading anyone for the right price, but trading away from our outfield depth does concern me a little. While we have talent, there's also a lot of question marks all around. I don't think Duran is going to get back in return what some think he may. You're certainly not getting a young cost controlled ACE for him, now could he be the secondary piece in such a trade for a team that is high on him? absolutey.
With that said, It would certainly increase his value (particularly to the 2023 team) if he could play second base as good as he became in the outfield last year. In todays game, where it's going, it wouldn't surprise me if he went that route, but on the other hand if there was a real chance of that happening you would think you would hear some chatter about it by now. Perhaps that ship has sailed on him playing the infield.
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Post by teddyballgame9 on Dec 26, 2023 12:10:13 GMT -5
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 26, 2023 12:15:00 GMT -5
Definitely all true. His BABIP was extraordinarilly high at .381. While I suspect that BABIP will be a strength for him due to his speed, that number is not sustainable. He's like too many other guys we have on the field in that his defensive deficiencies cannibalize his offensive value. B-Ref and FG have him at 2.1 and 2.4 WAR respectively. I would expect those numbers to be higher for a CF who had a 121 OPS-plus and 120 wRC+ and was 24 for 26 in SB. It's a tough call whether to shop him or keep him. The offensive energy he brings is tantalizing. But there are reasons to move him. I also agree with your point about other teams seeing him as a regression candidate. Thats a 3.5/4 WAR pace over 600 PAs, I don’t think your thesis stands up. Ideally he’d take another step forward defensively but it’s not like he’s totally abject out there. The BABIP isn’t sustainable, but he hit the ball hard with average whiff/chase numbers. If he can do that the speed will help his production play up from the batted ball numbers. I don’t think the path to putting up a .270/.325/.425 line is especially hard to make out. And I think it’s worth keeping in mind that a suite of rule changes were made specifically to benefit players like him. It’ll probably take some time to accumulate enough data for the projection systems and expected stats models to catch up with those changes. I don't think other teams see him as a potential 4 WAR guy on a regular basis. I hope you're right and he has that kind of potential. He'd either be an excellent player for the Red Sox or an attractive trade chip. But his WAR pace that you cite includes the super high BABIP, right? I don't think WAR assumes normalization for BABIP. As Pappyman99 noted, his xwOBA was pretty unspectacular (.319). And yes, his defense improved but it did so by going from horiffic to just plain old less than average - he went from -17 UZR/150 games (Yikes!) to -3.3 UZR/150 games.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 26, 2023 13:02:41 GMT -5
Regression to what? With so little time in MLB we don’t know a lot. We do know his defense kept improving as he learned the outfield. His earliest efforts may have been keystone cop awful, but as he actually did start to figure things out it seems more likely that trend will continue. Ellsbury’s early defensive numbers were off the charts bad. He got better and better, as could Duran.
His BABIP has always been high. It will never be low. While pitchers and catchers may figure him out to some degree, he is as likely to adapt and keep improving. Speed and baserunning have been a uniquely exceptional skill set since his jet propelled days at CSULB. IMO Duran pioneered using the several new pitch clock, shifting, etc. rules to enhance his BABIP.
In fact, the league not only wanted to shorten games but also a return to the base running excitement fans lived for prior to the HR era. Very, very few MLB players have Duran’s combination of speed and baserunning skills. As has been said here repeatedly, watching him can be a reason to watch the game. I look forward to watching, on the edge of my seat, the running games of Duran, Story, McGuire, Rafaella, Hamilton, more. What might they accomplish with several on the team at the same time? When the team is complete and the lineup balanced, come ST, we can expect this offense to again deliver 200 HR but also, hopefully, 400 doubles, triples and hustle to keep the offense moving and the games a must-watch experience.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 26, 2023 13:07:25 GMT -5
Jacoby Ellsbury was faster and better contact rates than Duran and he had a career BABIP of .315
Not sure everyone magically thinks Duran will always have a towards .400 BABIP because he is fast?
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 26, 2023 13:13:29 GMT -5
Jacoby Ellsbury was faster and better contact rates than Duran and he had a career BABIP of .315 Not sure everyone magically thinks Duran will always have a towards .400 BABIP because he is fast? No one said .400 and no one is expecting magic. I am expecting continually improved defense and continued exploitation of the new rules, making him the genuine asset we saw when drafted. He has improved to the point of making games more interesting AND winnable. You can’t trade that away for what he can return at this point.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 26, 2023 13:18:52 GMT -5
A discussion of Duran that barely, if at all, mentions his uncanny ability to turn a routine single into an exhilarating double (followed, on the next pitch, by him scoring from second on a groundout), is an empty discussion.
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