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Post by jamesmcgillstatue on Jun 19, 2024 7:42:49 GMT -5
RIP Willie Mays, one of the greatest players of all time, a guy who could have shared an outfield for a decade besides Ted Williams and could have spent another decade alongside Yaz had some of the Red Sox scouts of the late 40s not been bigoted. The player who most reminded me of Willie Mays was Ken Griffey Jr. The Sox player who reminded me the most of Mays was Mookie Betts although he'll be lucky to hit half the amount of home runs in his career that Mays hit, a total that could actually increase should the researchers find "proof" of the two HRs hit in the Negro Leagues that havent been verified as of yet. As it was Mays actually lived long enough to see 10 more hits get credited to his hit total although his average dropped from .302 to .301 lifetime. But what was remembered was how he had all five tools to the extreme plus he also had the non traditional tools of great plate discipline and his brilliant baseball brain. Like I said only Mookie has all 7 tools that I can remember from following the Sox. It's rare or as Ted Williams once said, the game was invented for Willie. Baseball lost a legend today. RIP Willie Mays. I grew up in the Boston suburbs and began following baseball when I was nine in 1962. Naturally I was a fan of the Red Sox, but, because I am slightly obsessive , I soon began to follow the other 19 MLB teams very closely. During the regular-season, MLB's TV territorial agreement of that long-ago time permitted only Red Sox games (about 50-60 games per season on the flagship, the old WHDH-TV, Channel 5) to be beamed into the Boston ADI. There were apparently "MLB Games of the Week" on weekends on both CBS and NBC, but they were televised exclusively in non-MLB markets; I remember Bangor and Portland channels aired them, but Boston and Providence channels could not. Thus the only time I got to see National League players was the All-Star Game and the World Series. Coincidentally in 1962, the Dodgers and Giants tied for first place after 162 games and NL bylaws dictated that a best-of-three playoff determine the NL pennant. And, happily, ABC picked up the games and telecast them nationally. The Dodger-Giant playoff series gave me my first real glance (ASGs don't count) at Willie Mays over a sustained period. (And stars like Koufax, Drysdale, Wills, Tommy Davis, Frank Howard, Marichal, Cepeda, McCovey, Felipe Alou, etc.) This, after a diet of games featuring a talent-bereft Red Sox team (except for guys like Radatz, Yaz, Monbouquette, Malzone, Wilson) playing clubs like the Kansas City A's and Washington Senators, was a revelation to me. There was no one like Mays in the American League, I realized--and shortly thereafter I realized that there was no one like Mays at all. I don't recall any spectacular catches but Retrosheet reminds me that, in the first tiebreaker game, he went 3 for 3, with three runs scored and two homers (his 48th and 49th of 1962--stats for these tiebreakers are included in regular-season numbers). The Giants beat the Dodgers 8-0 at Candlestick en route to taking the tiebreaker, two games to one, to win the pennant. Which gave me the bonus of being able to watch (ultimately) seven more games when the Giants fell to the Yankees in the Series. Mays went seven for 28 with two doubles. Not exactly 2013 Ortiz numbers. But I just remember watching the at-bats of all these Giants' players I rarely saw perform. Mays's especially. For the next two years, Mays disappeared from view completely, except for the annual All-Star Games. It wasn't until 1965 that MLB permitted "national" TV games on Saturday, first on ABC, then on NBC starting in 1966. These soon came to be informally called "National League games" and I often chose to watch them, rather than the Red Sox. IIRC, the Sox were so out-of-the-national-consciousness (and rightly so) that they didn't appear on the NBC GotW until August 1967. So in 1965 I had a chance to watch more Mays: he hit 52 homers that year and won his second MVP award. The Giants were contenders then in a one-division, ten-team league (they finished second four years in a row), so Mays was often on the air. His career began to tail off in 1967, but his at bats were always must-sees for me (as Mookie's were from 2014-19) and I did get to see Mays play live twice at Jarry Park. I'm very thankful for having had those chances to watch him.
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Post by bucksmatthew on Jun 19, 2024 8:39:41 GMT -5
I'm a bit younger (the 67 Red Sox were my introduction as an 8 year old, living in NJ with a mother who'd grown up on Swampscott and listened to the series with her head up against a radio due to spotty at best reception). But Mays was one of the handful of guys I grew up that were known for a thing, or a number - Ruth and his 714, Dimaggio and his 56, Ted and his .406, Aaron and his 755, etc. With Willie it was the catch, and what a catch it was. I managed to pull off the somewhat rare feat (I'd guess) of seeing Aaron play with the Brewers (in Fenway) and Willie play with the Mets (in Shea). I'm lucky I got to see them both, even long past their primes.
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 19, 2024 11:00:29 GMT -5
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 19, 2024 11:09:44 GMT -5
AJ Preller you salty dog
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Post by seamus on Jun 19, 2024 14:36:36 GMT -5
I don't think I quite realized how important Willie Mays was to my conception of what baseball is until today. It's like looking up to the night sky, but the moon is gone. He's been the greatest living ballplayer for so long that it's hard to even comprehend anyone else wearing the crown.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,589
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Post by asm18 on Jun 19, 2024 16:07:59 GMT -5
Kyle Bradish getting TJ (brace)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 19, 2024 20:46:28 GMT -5
I don't think I quite realized how important Willie Mays was to my conception of what baseball is until today. It's like looking up to the night sky, but the moon is gone. He's been the greatest living ballplayer for so long that it's hard to even comprehend anyone else wearing the crown. One other note about Willie Mays. I'm sure some (I was a baby then) remember Aaron and Mays chasing Ruth's HR record of 715 with Mays declining before he could reach Ruth while Aaron, a few years younger was able to surpass Ruth. But perhaps forgotten was that Mays spent the most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 season in the military. In 1951 he had 20 HRs as a NL rookie. He had 4 HRs in 34 games in 1952 before heading to the military. He came back in 1954 and blossomed, smashing 41 HRs. This is conjecture here, but I don't think it would have been unreasonable to think he hits another 20 HRs in 1952 and perhaps 35 HRs in 1953 had he not went into the army. Given another 55 HRs, he might have passed Babe Ruth on the all-time HR list before Hank Aaron. If Mays had passed Ruth in his final season, Aaron would have passed Ruth and then all-time HR king Willie Mays during the 1974 season anyways. But of course Mays wasnt the only guy who lost time to the military. Perhaps Mays and Aaron would have been chasing all-time HR king Ted Williams who missed almost 5 full seasons due to military service. If Williams averaged 35 HRs during those years which was entirely plausible, then he would have been around 700 career HRs. If he ended 1960 at that figure there's no way Ted, coming off a 29 HR season wouldnt have come back in 1961 to pass Ruth. That's how great both were. They missed significant time serving our country and still were high up on the all time HR list. And yes, Ruth missed out hitting more HRs because he pitched in the desd ball era his first five seasons and Josh Gibson flat out didnt get the chance.
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Post by kwodes on Jun 20, 2024 12:04:14 GMT -5
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 20, 2024 13:18:15 GMT -5
I don't think I quite realized how important Willie Mays was to my conception of what baseball is until today. It's like looking up to the night sky, but the moon is gone. He's been the greatest living ballplayer for so long that it's hard to even comprehend anyone else wearing the crown. One other note about Willie Mays. I'm sure some (I was a baby then) remember Aaron and Mays chasing Ruth's HR record of 715 with Mays declining before he could reach Ruth while Aaron, a few years younger was able to surpass Ruth. But perhaps forgotten was that Mays spent the most of the 1952 season and all of the 1953 season in the military. In 1951 he had 20 HRs as a NL rookie. He had 4 HRs in 34 games in 1952 before heading to the military. He came back in 1954 and blossomed, smashing 41 HRs. This is conjecture here, but I don't think it would have been unreasonable to think he hits another 20 HRs in 1952 and perhaps 35 HRs in 1953 had he not went into the army. Given another 55 HRs, he might have passed Babe Ruth on the all-time HR list before Hank Aaron. If Mays had passed Ruth in his final season, Aaron would have passed Ruth and then all-time HR king Willie Mays during the 1974 season anyways. But of course Mays wasnt the only guy who lost time to the military. Perhaps Mays and Aaron would have been chasing all-time HR king Ted Williams who missed almost 5 full seasons due to military service. If Williams averaged 35 HRs during those years which was entirely plausible, then he would have been around 700 career HRs. If he ended 1960 at that figure there's no way Ted, coming off a 29 HR season wouldnt have come back in 1961 to pass Ruth. That's how great both were. They missed significant time serving our country and still were high up on the all time HR list. And yes, Ruth missed out hitting more HRs because he pitched in the desd ball era his first five seasons and Josh Gibson flat out didnt get the chance. Yeah you could definitely make a case that either Williams or Mays might have been the all time WAR leader too without the military time. Williams missed three seasons in the midst of a stretch where he was averaging over 11 WAR per year, then two more seasons where he was at about 7 WAR. Immediately coming back from his service Mays had a 10 WAR season. I think Mays has a pretty decent case as the best player of all time and Williams as the best hitter.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,504
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Post by nomar on Jun 20, 2024 13:19:26 GMT -5
Royce Lewis just hit his 9th homer in his 15th game of the season. His 2nd half wRC+ was 172 in 2023 with an ISO over .300
A Minnesota player who is always hurt, but incredible when he’s healthy. Familiar story
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Post by geostorm on Jun 20, 2024 14:15:11 GMT -5
"If there is one avatar for the White Sox's 2024 futility, it's probably outfielder Andrew Benintendi. This isn't really fair, and on a team this bad no one player deserves that particular designation. But it lands on Benintendi, because he has a chance at having the worst individual season in major league history. Through Wednesday, Benintendi was at minus-1.86 WAR, per the Baseball-Reference version of the number. That figure has actually been improving over his most recent games, which are sandwiched around an IL stint. Nevertheless, that total put Benintendi on pace for minus-4.02 WAR for the season. How bad is minus-4.02 WAR? Bad. Uncomfortably close to worst-ever bad. In fact, it would be an ignominious figure that would challenge Atlanta Braves infielder Jerry Royster, who had a minus-4.05 WAR in 1977. That rates as the worst season among modern era position players."
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Post by patford on Jun 20, 2024 15:46:21 GMT -5
Very pleased to see Luis Gil and the Yankees being destroyed at the moment. Gil goes one and a third giving up eight hits and seven runs.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jun 20, 2024 17:56:07 GMT -5
Very pleased to see Luis Gil and the Yankees being destroyed at the moment. Gil goes one and a third giving up eight hits and seven runs. Left with bases loaded & none scored -- could've been much worse.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,504
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Post by nomar on Jun 21, 2024 7:02:34 GMT -5
"If there is one avatar for the White Sox's 2024 futility, it's probably outfielder Andrew Benintendi. This isn't really fair, and on a team this bad no one player deserves that particular designation. But it lands on Benintendi, because he has a chance at having the worst individual season in major league history. Through Wednesday, Benintendi was at minus-1.86 WAR, per the Baseball-Reference version of the number. That figure has actually been improving over his most recent games, which are sandwiched around an IL stint. Nevertheless, that total put Benintendi on pace for minus-4.02 WAR for the season. How bad is minus-4.02 WAR? Bad. Uncomfortably close to worst-ever bad. In fact, it would be an ignominious figure that would challenge Atlanta Braves infielder Jerry Royster, who had a minus-4.05 WAR in 1977. That rates as the worst season among modern era position players." Benintendi has been bad but he’s also been very unlucky this year. His career in general has been derailed by the fact that he can’t pull the ball in the air. His career Pull% on Fly Balls is under 18%. He doesn’t have much opposite field HR power. Not being able to pull the ball has capped his ISO and while otherwise he’s a good hitter, it’s not enough because his athleticism has really dwindled killing his defense.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jun 21, 2024 7:07:25 GMT -5
"If there is one avatar for the White Sox's 2024 futility, it's probably outfielder Andrew Benintendi. This isn't really fair, and on a team this bad no one player deserves that particular designation. But it lands on Benintendi, because he has a chance at having the worst individual season in major league history. Through Wednesday, Benintendi was at minus-1.86 WAR, per the Baseball-Reference version of the number. That figure has actually been improving over his most recent games, which are sandwiched around an IL stint. Nevertheless, that total put Benintendi on pace for minus-4.02 WAR for the season. How bad is minus-4.02 WAR? Bad. Uncomfortably close to worst-ever bad. In fact, it would be an ignominious figure that would challenge Atlanta Braves infielder Jerry Royster, who had a minus-4.05 WAR in 1977. That rates as the worst season among modern era position players." Benintendi has been bad but he’s also been very unlucky this year. His career in general has been derailed by the fact that he can’t pull the ball in the air. His career Pull% on Fly Balls is under 18%. He doesn’t have much opposite field HR power. Not being able to pull the ball has capped his ISO and while otherwise he’s a good hitter, it’s not enough because his athleticism has really dwindled killing his defense. It really is a shame that Beni's gone downhill so quickly, I was a huge fan of his back on the Sox. 2018 at 23 years old he put up 4.4 fWAR and was a key piece of the WS. I thought at that point he was going to be a great cornerstone for the team and that just never came to fruition. I think he really did himself a disservice when he decided to bulk up that offseason and the #s would show that but I doubt that is the whole story. I won't say I feel bad for the guy since he is going to clear $100M in career earnings and has a WS ring so in the grand scheme of things that is a nice career but it did seem like it could have been so much more.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,504
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Post by nomar on Jun 21, 2024 7:14:07 GMT -5
Benintendi has been bad but he’s also been very unlucky this year. His career in general has been derailed by the fact that he can’t pull the ball in the air. His career Pull% on Fly Balls is under 18%. He doesn’t have much opposite field HR power. Not being able to pull the ball has capped his ISO and while otherwise he’s a good hitter, it’s not enough because his athleticism has really dwindled killing his defense. It really is a shame that Beni's gone downhill so quickly, I was a huge fan of his back on the Sox. 2018 at 23 years old he put up 4.4 fWAR and was a key piece of the WS. I thought at that point he was going to be a great cornerstone for the team and that just never came to fruition. I think he really did himself a disservice when he decided to bulk up that offseason and the #s would show that but I doubt that is the whole story. I won't say I feel bad for the guy since he is going to clear $100M in career earnings and has a WS ring so in the grand scheme of things that is a nice career but it did seem like it could have been so much more. Yeah it is a bummer. He had all the pieces. He was one of the highest conviction prospects for me; I really was sold that he was a star.
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Post by keninten on Jun 21, 2024 13:33:22 GMT -5
Very pleased to see Luis Gil and the Yankees being destroyed at the moment. Gil goes one and a third giving up eight hits and seven runs. Left with bases loaded & none scored -- could've been much worse. even better. Isn`t that more accurate
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Post by taiwansox on Jun 21, 2024 18:22:11 GMT -5
Imanaga just gave up 10 ER today! Gil and Imanaga having their ERAs jump by almost a run in back to back days
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Post by keninten on Jun 21, 2024 18:36:13 GMT -5
Rodon has given up 3 in the 1st and runners on 2nd and 3rd in the 2nd. Whoops this isn`t the game thread
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,589
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Post by asm18 on Jun 21, 2024 18:40:03 GMT -5
Rodon has given up 3 in the 1st and runners on 2nd and 3rd in the 2nd. Whoops this isn`t the game thread I mean at least he’s durable tho
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 21, 2024 20:26:42 GMT -5
Oh no
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 22, 2024 16:04:44 GMT -5
The Phillies are guaranteeing Cristopher Sanchez $22 million through his arb years and in return are getting $14 and $15 million club options. Thats a team friendly one
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 22, 2024 16:44:18 GMT -5
The Phillies are guaranteeing Cristopher Sanchez $22 million through his arb years and in return are getting $14 and $15 million club options. Thats a team friendly one Might be a good comp for Crawford?
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 23, 2024 8:43:13 GMT -5
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Post by stevedillard on Jun 23, 2024 9:39:11 GMT -5
Ball four anyway.
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