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4/23-4/25 Red Sox @ Guardians Series Thread
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 20:09:55 GMT -5
Let's be honest here, we all know deep down that Bailey bought a bag of Tampa magic dust. It's the only plausible explanation.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 24, 2024 20:19:15 GMT -5
If Devers can't handle playing 3B, he should be sitting. He has been trying to gut it out all year and has been repeatedly reinjuring himself. I don't know the specifics of his knee injury, but hitting and running the bases should put similar stress on the knee to playing 3B, albeit in a smaller dose.
Even if they insist on making the wrong decision with Devers and sitting Yoshida, under no circumstances should Refsnyder be sitting while Dalbec is in the starting lineup. Dalbec should be off of the MLB roster the second transactions and 40-man health allow, and he should be used as a pure backup in the meantime.
Edit: And injured Devers vs. Yoshida is arguably a side-grade with the bat, so why play the guy who's gimpy and at risk of reinjury? The real benefit of getting Devers back is being able to sit Reyes. Until we can do that, there's little point.
As someone who has been playing baseball again after a decade long hiatus, I will say that playing in the field vs running the bases is very different movement wise especially with the lower half. I'm close to Devers' age and I've never noticed much of a difference, and intuitively hitting should have everything fielding has for the lower body, just in shorter bursts. Crouching and loading before the batter swings = crouching and loading while preparing to swing, or when preparing to take off on contact as a baserunner. Exploding towards a grounder = exploding into a swing, or taking off on contact. Sprinting for a pop up = sprinting out of the box. Diving for a ball = diving into a base. Side stepping = taking a lead, or going halfway on a flyball that might drop. Swinging has that additional twisting motion that you don't get fielding, but I can't think of anything that's the reverse.
This really isn't the main point, though. I don't get playing with the health of your most important player when you have a similar option on the bench. It's not like he's coming back from TJ and can't throw yet but his arm is otherwise fine. Either he's healthy enough to play 3B, in which case let him and don't treat him with kid gloves, or he isn't, and you sit him until he's feeling good.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 24, 2024 20:20:09 GMT -5
That's what I had thought but then the reporting today makes it sound like he is frustrated by the lack of playing time. Of course lots could be lost in translation there. Hmm, I haven't seen what you're talking about
I think the computer has real low opinion of Yoshida in the OF and the computer is running things for the most part. Hamilton continuing to play SS ahead of Rafaela when they're both no the field is something no human would do
The computer definitely is not running things given the lineups they keep rolling out lol
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 20:30:06 GMT -5
To break it down for the stat guys.....
Sox pitchers did well because they threw strikes.
Guardian pitchers got hit hard because they threw strikes.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 24, 2024 20:50:50 GMT -5
Well that was insane. Starting to think Rafaela might be able to handle the infield after all. I don't think he was waiting for you to punch that ticket. There were a few bizarre takes on the board about his defense when he'd played two games at the position. That's a play only a handful of shortstops could make, and one of them is out for the year.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Apr 24, 2024 20:57:12 GMT -5
With the pitching injuries...is it Uwasawa time?
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Apr 24, 2024 21:05:03 GMT -5
Chase Anderson has been very effective, even though it has been in low leverage. It is good that Cora has been giving him 2 and 3 inning stints as hopefully he can go 4 or 5 solid innings tomorrow.
A win tomorrow would mean a 5-1 road trip….gotta love it.
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Post by strike23 on Apr 24, 2024 21:05:42 GMT -5
This team looks like a strong WC contender and with better injury luck would've been in contention for the division. I think we're in solid shape 1-6 in the lineup hopefully Grissom can make that 1-7 soon, Raffy makes up for it with his D and I'll make an outrageous prediction that Bobby D turns it around, gets in a minor groove and provides better than replacement level 1B through the ASB
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Post by strike23 on Apr 24, 2024 21:07:52 GMT -5
Well that was insane. Starting to think Rafaela might be able to handle the infield after all. I don't think he was waiting for you to punch that ticket. There were a few bizarre takes on the board about his defense when he'd played two games at the position. That's a play only a handful of shortstops could make, and one of them is out for the year. It's huge to have plus SS defence and drop a black hole out of the lineup. Props to Duran for turning things around in CF as well.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Apr 24, 2024 21:16:46 GMT -5
Is there any chance the plan to throw off their breaking pitches rather than their fastballs is part of the reason for this? I need a nap badly, but the first thing I'm doing when I awake is to look at the degree of fastball reduction for each pitcher. If Crawford and Houck have the least change, that would be telling. Well, this is not reassuring. The number is the % of pitches other than fastballs (4-seamers and sinkers)
Name 2023 2024 Added Whitlock 47.1 77.3 30.2 Pivetta 49.4 67.2 17.8 Bello 43.0 60.3 17.3 Houck 60.5 71.0 10.5 Winckowski 57.6 67.5 9.9 Crawford 60.8 70.6 9.8
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 24, 2024 21:25:07 GMT -5
Is that supposed to be 2023 & 2024?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 21:45:32 GMT -5
Well that was insane. Starting to think Rafaela might be able to handle the infield after all. I don't think he was waiting for you to punch that ticket. There were a few bizarre takes on the board about his defense when he'd played two games at the position. That's a play only a handful of shortstops could make, and one of them is out for the year. Takes on Rafaela's defense are a wee bit bizarre.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 21:54:35 GMT -5
I need a nap badly, but the first thing I'm doing when I awake is to look at the degree of fastball reduction for each pitcher. If Crawford and Houck have the least change, that would be telling. Well, this is not reassuring. The number is the % of pitches other than fastballs (4-seamers and sinkers)
Name 2003 2004 Added Whitlock 47.1 77.3 30.2 Pivetta 49.4 67.2 17.8 Bello 43.0 60.3 17.3 Houck 60.5 71.0 10.5 Winckowski 57.6 67.5 9.9 Crawford 60.8 70.6 9.8
This actually reinforces the stamina take since the two least and single most changed (Houck, Crawford & Whitlock) all worked on stamina this past off season.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,659
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Post by cdj on Apr 24, 2024 21:55:12 GMT -5
Whitlock and Bello aren’t even arm injuries
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 24, 2024 22:01:12 GMT -5
Well that was insane. Starting to think Rafaela might be able to handle the infield after all. I don't think he was waiting for you to punch that ticket. There were a few bizarre takes on the board about his defense when he'd played two games at the position. That's a play only a handful of shortstops could make, and one of them is out for the year. The argument has never been that he can't play shortstop. The scouting consensus is that he's merely above average at SS, but an elite, borderline 80-tier defensive CF. If the bat comes around no one will question him at SS, but he hasn't shown nearly enough with the bat for above average defense at SS to cut it; he has earned every bit of his -0.6 fWAR thus far, mostly due to his offensive limitations.
Until recently the Sox did not have enough healthy outfielders to obligate a Rafaela move to the infield, so this was actually a talking point. Now with 5 healthy OFs, a threadbare IF, and Yoshida already being benched excessively there's no decision to be made. Even if he's replacement level, he's clearly the best man for the job defensively and the Sox need to get their OF bats in the lineup.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,015
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Post by ericmvan on Apr 24, 2024 22:02:32 GMT -5
Is that supposed to be 2023 & 2024? LOL! Or course. You might guess that I never got the nap I needed -- a baseball game started and was unexpectedly interesting.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 24, 2024 22:05:27 GMT -5
I don't think he was waiting for you to punch that ticket. There were a few bizarre takes on the board about his defense when he'd played two games at the position. That's a play only a handful of shortstops could make, and one of them is out for the year. It's huge to have plus SS defence and drop a black hole out of the lineup. Props to Duran for turning things around in CF as well. Coming into tonight, Hamilton had a 56 wRC+ on the year compared to 25 for Rafaela.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 22:07:50 GMT -5
I don't think he was waiting for you to punch that ticket. There were a few bizarre takes on the board about his defense when he'd played two games at the position. That's a play only a handful of shortstops could make, and one of them is out for the year. The argument has never been that he can't play shortstop. The scouting consensus is that he's merely above average at SS, but an elite, borderline 80-tier defensive CF. If the bat comes around no one will question him at SS, but he hasn't shown nearly enough with the bat for above average defense at SS to cut it; he has earned every bit of his -0.6 fWAR thus far, mostly due to his offensive limitations.
Until recently the Sox did not have enough healthy outfielders to obligate a Rafaela move to the infield, so this was actually a talking point. Now with 5 healthy OFs, a threadbare IF, and Yoshida already being benched excessively there's no decision to be made. Even if he's replacement level, he's clearly the best man for the job defensively and the Sox need to get their OF bats in the lineup. I think you are seeing what you want to see. Last year there were several comments that given reps he's also a gold glove caliber shortstop. He made tons of great plays at shortstop in the minors and his range is such that he'll make better defenders out of the third baseman, second baseman and left fielder because they can all move a step or two away. I honestly think you are trying to justify a horrible take.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 24, 2024 22:10:44 GMT -5
The argument has never been that he can't play shortstop. The scouting consensus is that he's merely above average at SS, but an elite, borderline 80-tier defensive CF. If the bat comes around no one will question him at SS, but he hasn't shown nearly enough with the bat for above average defense at SS to cut it; he has earned every bit of his -0.6 fWAR thus far, mostly due to his offensive limitations.
Until recently the Sox did not have enough healthy outfielders to obligate a Rafaela move to the infield, so this was actually a talking point. Now with 5 healthy OFs, a threadbare IF, and Yoshida already being benched excessively there's no decision to be made. Even if he's replacement level, he's clearly the best man for the job defensively and the Sox need to get their OF bats in the lineup. I think you are seeing what you want to see. Last year there were several comments that given reps he's also a gold glove caliber shortstop. He made tons of great plays at shortstop in the minors and his range is such that he'll make better defenders out of the third baseman, second baseman and left fielder because they can all move a step or two away. I honestly think you are trying to justify a horrible take. I may be grumpy this evening, but I'm not making things up. The SP.com writeup on him says pretty much exactly that. "Has shown the potential to be a plus defender all around the diamond, but is best in center field, where projects as plus-plus to elite."
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Post by kevfc89 on Apr 24, 2024 22:11:12 GMT -5
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 22:15:40 GMT -5
Let's be honest here, we all know deep down that Bailey bought a bag of Tampa magic dust. It's the only plausible explanation. Rays magic dust 🤝 Heat witchcraft
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Post by carmenfanzone on Apr 24, 2024 22:16:34 GMT -5
I must be missing something here. You are saying they shouldn't DH Devers after a game when he went 3 for 4 with a walk and homer as the DH? You say he is their most important player, which I can agree with because I think he is their best hitter. So I can't agree that Yoshida is a comparable option. Devers is a better hitter than Yoshida. And if the Red Sox want to DH him on his first game back (just like they did with O'Neil and Grissom at AAA) or even for a couple of games, I am fine with that, especially since Devers is not that good in the field. I am just happy he is back and contributing in a game where they beat Cleveland for a change. As someone who has been playing baseball again after a decade long hiatus, I will say that playing in the field vs running the bases is very different movement wise especially with the lower half. I'm close to Devers' age and I've never noticed much of a difference, and intuitively hitting should have everything fielding has for the lower body, just in shorter bursts. Crouching and loading before the batter swings = crouching and loading while preparing to swing, or when preparing to take off on contact as a baserunner. Exploding towards a grounder = exploding into a swing, or taking off on contact. Sprinting for a pop up = sprinting out of the box. Diving for a ball = diving into a base. Side stepping = taking a lead, or going halfway on a flyball that might drop. Swinging has that additional twisting motion that you don't get fielding, but I can't think of anything that's the reverse.
This really isn't the main point, though. I don't get playing with the health of your most important player when you have a similar option on the bench. It's not like he's coming back from TJ and can't throw yet but his arm is otherwise fine. Either he's healthy enough to play 3B, in which case let him and don't treat him with kid gloves, or he isn't, and you sit him until he's feeling good.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 22:17:27 GMT -5
By the end of the year, Rafaela, not Story or Mayer will be thought of as the shortstop of the future.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 24, 2024 22:22:16 GMT -5
I think you are seeing what you want to see. Last year there were several comments that given reps he's also a gold glove caliber shortstop. He made tons of great plays at shortstop in the minors and his range is such that he'll make better defenders out of the third baseman, second baseman and left fielder because they can all move a step or two away. I honestly think you are trying to justify a horrible take. I may be grumpy this evening, but I'm not making things up. The SP.com writeup on him says pretty much exactly that. "Has shown the potential to be a plus defender all around the diamond, but is best in center field, where projects as plus-plus to elite." Then we interpret differently, potential to be a plus defender all around the diamond doesn't say merely above average to me. Projects best in center field doesn't limit other possibilities but he is plus plus now there. Nobody is arguing that. Hamilton is a below average hitter and defender and always will be. At best he's an emergency up and down guy.
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Post by notstarboard on Apr 24, 2024 22:25:46 GMT -5
I must be missing something here. You are saying they shouldn't DH Devers after a game when he went 3 for 4 with a walk and homer as the DH? You say he is their most important player, which I can agree with because I think he is their best hitter. So I can't agree that Yoshida is a comparable option. Devers is a better hitter than Yoshida. And if the Red Sox want to DH him on his first game back (just like they did with O'Neil and Grissom at AAA) or even for a couple of games, I am fine with that, especially since Devers is not that good in the field. I am just happy he is back and contributing in a game where they beat Cleveland for a change. I'm close to Devers' age and I've never noticed much of a difference, and intuitively hitting should have everything fielding has for the lower body, just in shorter bursts. Crouching and loading before the batter swings = crouching and loading while preparing to swing, or when preparing to take off on contact as a baserunner. Exploding towards a grounder = exploding into a swing, or taking off on contact. Sprinting for a pop up = sprinting out of the box. Diving for a ball = diving into a base. Side stepping = taking a lead, or going halfway on a flyball that might drop. Swinging has that additional twisting motion that you don't get fielding, but I can't think of anything that's the reverse.
This really isn't the main point, though. I don't get playing with the health of your most important player when you have a similar option on the bench. It's not like he's coming back from TJ and can't throw yet but his arm is otherwise fine. Either he's healthy enough to play 3B, in which case let him and don't treat him with kid gloves, or he isn't, and you sit him until he's feeling good.
Yes. A bad decision that works out is still a bad decision. Healthy Devers is a better hitter than healthy Yoshida, but Devers and Yoshida had near identical production on the year coming into tonight, with Yoshida being especially good lately. The advantage of playing Devers in the field is it lets you get Yoshida's bat in the lineup too instead of Reyes and thereby flips an offensive black hole into a useful offensive player. And of course, if he comes back too early and aggravates his injury, that's the worst case scenario of any of this.
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