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5/30-6/2 Red Sox vs. Tigers Series Thread
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 30, 2024 22:28:44 GMT -5
Well I'm just excited that the daily complaint has upgraded from "three last place finishes in four years" to "a .500 team over the last five years." You can't tell me that's not progress. Here's something to be negative about: Portland pitching worst team in league: BB/9 WP BK Unearned runs Pitches/inning Near bottom in ERA GDP Lead league in Saves Go figure ... Explains why their solid lineup is giving them a .500 record WORCESTER, however, is at fewest in League in Unearned runs, but last in League in Saves
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 30, 2024 22:46:01 GMT -5
seems like we are always swimming upstream, but at times, i am convinced this is a playoff team. Is that normal ? Maybe with Casas and Story I'm not convinced about Story. I think he's not a good hitter anymore and all the time off compounding isn't helping things.
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 30, 2024 22:58:52 GMT -5
I don't agree with the Bill James take. We've seen this franchise spend money wisely and amass great, talented teams. More recently, we've seen money being spent but not necessarily wisely. For those who saw the Red Sox as a .500 team at best - probably a bit sub-.500 team in many cases - the frustration happens when there is no offense to support great pitching, when mental mistakes happen on the basepaths, and when there are defensive lapses. The last two have been cleaned up recently - but the hitting is often really disappointing.
I think long time Red Sox fans will always react to how the team does passionately. I've seen it in the many, many years I've been a fan - through lots of weak teams, as well as the great ones.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 31, 2024 1:34:39 GMT -5
I don't agree with the Bill James take. We've seen this franchise spend money wisely and amass great, talented teams. More recently, we've seen money being spent but not necessarily wisely. For those who saw the Red Sox as a .500 team at best - probably a bit sub-.500 team in many cases - the frustration happens when there is no offense to support great pitching, when mental mistakes happen on the basepaths, and when there are defensive lapses. The last two have been cleaned up recently - but the hitting is often really disappointing. I think long time Red Sox fans will always react to how the team does passionately. I've seen it in the many, many years I've been a fan - through lots of weak teams, as well as the great ones. I recall '67 to '82, 16 years without a losing record. Yet, there was always a sense of foreboding doom during those years. I never recall the organization taking an approach similar to today's. They spent money on free agents annually. They were usually only outspent by NYY. Yawkeys had $$$
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on May 31, 2024 3:14:10 GMT -5
I don't agree with the Bill James take. We've seen this franchise spend money wisely and amass great, talented teams. More recently, we've seen money being spent but not necessarily wisely. For those who saw the Red Sox as a .500 team at best - probably a bit sub-.500 team in many cases - the frustration happens when there is no offense to support great pitching, when mental mistakes happen on the basepaths, and when there are defensive lapses. The last two have been cleaned up recently - but the hitting is often really disappointing. I think long time Red Sox fans will always react to how the team does passionately. I've seen it in the many, many years I've been a fan - through lots of weak teams, as well as the great ones. How does the Bill James quote relate in any way to the spending of the team, or sub-par offense, or mental lapses etc. etc.? He was making a simple anecdotal observation about fan engagement on a nightly basis and it's correlation to team record.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 31, 2024 5:59:28 GMT -5
I don't agree with the Bill James take. We've seen this franchise spend money wisely and amass great, talented teams. More recently, we've seen money being spent but not necessarily wisely. For those who saw the Red Sox as a .500 team at best - probably a bit sub-.500 team in many cases - the frustration happens when there is no offense to support great pitching, when mental mistakes happen on the basepaths, and when there are defensive lapses. The last two have been cleaned up recently - but the hitting is often really disappointing. I think long time Red Sox fans will always react to how the team does passionately. I've seen it in the many, many years I've been a fan - through lots of weak teams, as well as the great ones. I recall '67 to '82, 16 years without a losing record. Yet, there was always a sense of foreboding doom during those years. I never recall the organization taking an approach similar to today's. They spent money on free agents annually. They were usually only outspent by NYY. Yawkeys had $$$ Free agency really only started in the winter of 1976-77, after Yawkey had passed. Early on the Sox made splashy moves signing Bill Campbell and then a year later signing Mike Torrez, but they weren't big spenders after that. They got Steve Renko for 1979 and veteran Tony Perez in 1980, having his last good season, and they extended Jim Rice, but by 1981 had stopped with free agency altogether. They were noted more for losing Tiant and eventually Fisk, and dumping Lynn, Hobson, and Burleson before they lost them in free agency. Prior to all that Yawkey whipped out his checkbook to land Hawk Harrelson in August 1967 after he had been declared a free agent after Charlie Finley reneged on some promised payments to him, as he was signed to replace Tony Conigliaro, who had just been beaned. Otherwise the Sox sat out the rest of the 80s as far as free agency went. At the end of the decade they splurged on Tony Pena and Jeff Reardon, and then a year later they spent big bucks at that time to sign Jack Clark, Danny Darwin, and Matt Young, although they lost Mike Boddicker to free agency and had also lost Bruce Hurst to free agency 2 years prior. The Sox really werent known for spending money during the 90s, but more known for losing Clemens and then Mo Vaughn although they had extended Clemens earlier in the decade and then traded for and extended Pedro to a big contract and threw money at Jose Offerman after losing Vaughn. The Sox became a big spender finally after landing Manny as John Harringtom was preparing to sell, knowing the new owners would inherit the bulk of the contract and when John Henry initially took over and was willing to run the 2nd highest payroll behind the Yankees and eventually even surpass them, and surprise, they won 4 championships, not solely because of free agent spending but because they could get star talent when they needed to or even wanted to and were willing to keep the highest payrolls to keep in the most talent. Way prior to all that Yawkey was known to be overly generous to his players so he was known for spending money and initially he had forged that reputation by renovating Fenway and then adding big salaried players like Rick Ferrell, Doc Cramer,Joe Cronin, Lefty Grove, and Jimmie Foxx through big salary dump type of trades, which he did again a decade later, grabbing Vern Stephen's, Ellis Kinder, and Jack Kramer from the Browns. He stopped that in the 50s and poured money into amateur talent (sadly not Jackie Robinson or Willie Mays), which never really panned out during the 50s. And he continued to pay his players too well in the 60s when they were a bad team, more known for being a country club.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,543
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Post by asm18 on May 31, 2024 9:33:19 GMT -5
Gee, Sam - most objective projection systems had the Sox going .500ish, and a lot of fans (including folks here) and beat writers thought they would in the low to mid 70’s win totals. They’re actually on pace for higher than that despite the worst injury luck imaginable! They’re in third place and 3 games back of a wild card despite all their challenges.
So if your expectations were that this team could and should win say, 86-90 wins… WHY DID YOU STOP TRYING TO IMPROVE THE ROSTER IN DECEMBER, YOU TWIT
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Post by scottysmalls on May 31, 2024 9:52:04 GMT -5
People are hammering the Kennedy quote and I get it, but to play devils advocate they have underperformed their pythag and have been much worse in higher leverage moments leading to a worse record than the underlying stats would suggest.
Vs preseason expectations is another conversation
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Post by incandenza on May 31, 2024 9:56:18 GMT -5
Gee, Sam - most objective projection systems had the Sox going .500ish, and a lot of fans (including folks here) and beat writers thought they would in the low to mid 70’s win totals. They’re actually on pace for higher than that despite the worst injury luck imaginable! They’re in third place and 3 games back of a wild card despite all their challenges. So if your expectations were that this team could and should win say, 86-90 wins… WHY DID YOU STOP TRYING TO IMPROVE THE ROSTER IN DECEMBER, YOU TWIT The Red Sox' path of exactly meeting their preseason expectations has certainly been unique:
1) Get wild overperformances from like a third of the roster, including several suddenly emergent young stars. 2) Have horrible injury luck with a bunch of core players 3) Have several replacements for those injured players be well below replacement level. 4) Underperform the pythagorean record by several games by being terrible in the clutch.
My takeaway: this is a young team having a breakout season that is being masked by everything else going wrong; they are gonna be really good in 2025 and no one will see it coming.
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Post by incandenza on May 31, 2024 10:03:17 GMT -5
People are hammering the Kennedy quote and I get it, but to play devils advocate they have underperformed their pythag and have been much worse in higher leverage moments leading to a worse record than the underlying stats would suggest. Vs preseason expectations is another conversation It was not a totally unreasonable set of comments, but the 'take accountability' node in his AI script went off at the wrong moment: A non-weird thing to say would be "we've had some injuries, and you can't help that, but also we've failed to make the most of the opportunities we've had." Instead he appears to do the opposite, praising the team's performance while blaming them for getting hurt.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,543
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Post by asm18 on May 31, 2024 10:08:51 GMT -5
These are all fair counter-critiques. I just don’t understand the contradictory mindset of the off-season’s “now is not the right time to spend” and then being like, “Wow, we should have a better record, which coincidentally would have us in playoff positioning.” Like the implication is both they thought the team was going to be good… and also not worth investing further in.
Admittedly, this weird contrast may be less an intentional thing and more of the key decision makers (Henry, Werner, Kennedy, Breslow, Cora) not all on the same page.
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Post by rhswanzey on May 31, 2024 10:23:06 GMT -5
As of a week ago, the gap between the pythag record and actual record decreases by one full win if you simply remove the runs that the Red Sox scored against position players in the Cubs game.
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Post by scottysmalls on May 31, 2024 10:36:43 GMT -5
As of a week ago, the gap between the pythag record and actual record decreases by one full win if you simply remove the runs that the Red Sox scored against position players in the Cubs game. Even if you reduce it by one win their pythag is 30-27 vs. actual record of 28-29. Also they've played the 5th most difficult schedule in the league. I'm not the biggest pythag guy, I'm just saying there are somewhat reasonable interpretations of Kennedy's quote which is getting lambasted.
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Post by chaimtime on May 31, 2024 11:12:09 GMT -5
If I were a player, I think I personally would prefer my boss say “these guys are good and I think they have it in them to win a lot more games” over saying “these guys all suck and it’s a miracle the season isn’t already over.”
They’ve underperformed their Pythag by 3 wins. They’ve had a couple bullpen blowups and the offense and the pitching haven’t quite gotten synced up so far. They absolutely can win more games than they have. Cora put it well, they’ve played okay rather than great. If Casas hits the ground running, Grissom starts to turn a corner, and the pitching continues to keep them in most games, they should be right in the thick of the playoff race, rather than hovering around .500.
For the people who think they should’ve spent more money this offseason, I am not convinced that Jordan Montgomery, Teoscar Hernandez, or Jorge Soler would make a huge difference for this team. Imanaga is really the only guy it looks like they cheaped out on, but they still have the MLB leader in pitching fWAR so I have a hard time getting too mad about that. Generally speaking, it seems like they had a good read on their guys and avoided making big commitments that don’t make the team much better.
Honestly, I don’t get what about this Sam Kennedy quote has made it such a story. People looking for something to be mad about on Twitter, I guess.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
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Post by nomar on May 31, 2024 11:16:34 GMT -5
Every time Kennedy says anything the pitchforks come out lol
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Post by julyanmorley on May 31, 2024 11:29:49 GMT -5
When people get mad at Sam Kennedy, do his bosses think he's not doing great PR, or do they think he's providing a tremendous service by being the one to absorb it all?
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
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Post by nomar on May 31, 2024 12:10:12 GMT -5
When people get mad at Sam Kennedy, do his bosses think he's not doing great PR, or do they think he's providing a tremendous service by being the one to absorb it all? Almost guaranteed it’s the latter because Sam Kennedy isn’t even the one making the decisions all of the fans bitch about
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Post by ephus on May 31, 2024 12:23:26 GMT -5
Gee, Sam - most objective projection systems had the Sox going .500ish, and a lot of fans (including folks here) and beat writers thought they would in the low to mid 70’s win totals. They’re actually on pace for higher than that despite the worst injury luck imaginable! They’re in third place and 3 games back of a wild card despite all their challenges. So if your expectations were that this team could and should win say, 86-90 wins… WHY DID YOU STOP TRYING TO IMPROVE THE ROSTER IN DECEMBER, YOU TWIT The Red Sox historically are a very methodical organization when it comes to public messaging. That's what made the whole "full throttle" thing such a head-scratcher. My concern is not whether the Red Sox are disappointing or exactly where we thought they'd be given the offseason and all of the injuries. My bigger question is "what is the signal here?" Are we going to see some veterans moved in the coming weeks and they are getting ahead of the "But they were only 3 games out of the wildcard!" backlash? Are we going to see some moves on the 40 man to get more aggressive with guys like Mayer, Teel, Penrod and Fitts? This would shock me, but is Alex potentially on the chopping block? This quote: "We’ve seen sort of the glimpse of how we’re going to get back to the postseason with athletic play and young, homegrown guys that have come through our system." Sure doesn't seem like big spending is pending. Time will tell. But after another lackluster start to homestand last night I think something is coming sooner rather than later.
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asm18
Veteran
Posts: 2,543
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Post by asm18 on May 31, 2024 15:33:21 GMT -5
Apparently Yoshida is taking BP tomorrow and O’Neill comes back on Wednesday
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Post by notstarboard on May 31, 2024 16:02:06 GMT -5
Another Apple TV night already? Good grief.
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Post by yaz1967 on May 31, 2024 18:09:01 GMT -5
Gee, Sam - most objective projection systems had the Sox going .500ish, and a lot of fans (including folks here) and beat writers thought they would in the low to mid 70’s win totals. They’re actually on pace for higher than that despite the worst injury luck imaginable! They’re in third place and 3 games back of a wild card despite all their challenges. So if your expectations were that this team could and should win say, 86-90 wins… WHY DID YOU STOP TRYING TO IMPROVE THE ROSTER IN DECEMBER, YOU TWIT The Red Sox historically are a very methodical organization when it comes to public messaging. That's what made the whole "full throttle" thing such a head-scratcher. My concern is not whether the Red Sox are disappointing or exactly where we thought they'd be given the offseason and all of the injuries. My bigger question is "what is the signal here?" Are we going to see some veterans moved in the coming weeks and they are getting ahead of the "But they were only 3 games out of the wildcard!" backlash? Are we going to see some moves on the 40 man to get more aggressive with guys like Mayer, Teel, Penrod and Fitts? This would shock me, but is Alex potentially on the chopping block? This quote: "We’ve seen sort of the glimpse of how we’re going to get back to the postseason with athletic play and young, homegrown guys that have come through our system." Sure doesn't seem like big spending is pending. Time will tell. But after another lackluster start to homestand last night I think something is coming sooner rather than later.
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Post by keninten on May 31, 2024 18:23:20 GMT -5
The cheap bastards are $12 mil under the luxury tax.
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Post by trapperdan on May 31, 2024 18:26:19 GMT -5
What percentage of opponents' runs come with two outs? I don't have the data in front of me, but it feels almost astonishingly high.
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 31, 2024 18:28:18 GMT -5
Why not have Duran steal there? Very uninspiring play.
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Post by dirtdog on May 31, 2024 18:35:48 GMT -5
Maeda has a 5.6 ERA. No excuses for not hitting tonight.
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