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John Henry/Sox ownership/direction
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Post by trotnixon7 on Jun 8, 2024 6:50:19 GMT -5
www.nbcsportsboston.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/john-henry-red-sox-ownership-sell-team/619510/?amp=1Henry comes off as a man who has no plans in investing in the red sox like he once did... I know this is a prospect group so most of you will side with caution HOWEVER.. Is anyone else angry at the sometimes lack of overall direction? The lack of any type of aggression? The excuse making? The lies? Fact is? This will likely be yet another season of "being in contention" so it'll be another season where they dont sell for long term gain. Due to this, they have more of a middling/pretty solid farm instead of a farm that SHOULD be top 3-5. Imagine if they traded players like bogearts/eovaldi/who ever instead of selling the fans of the illusion of contention. Red sox seem too focused on deriving value from very flawed players (bobby, valdez among others), too focused on versatility on defense for the sake of sacrificing defense for offense (Kiké at SS, rafaela at SS etc.) Likely will become to dependent on elevating okish pitchers into becoming "pretty solid"...and use that logic as a reason not to get a real ace etc. I for one haven't invested much into this team. It's not about being "spoiled" as much as I don't believe henry really gives a shit anymore as long as the money is coming in.
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Post by pappyman99 on Jun 8, 2024 7:57:39 GMT -5
0.0 is the amount of owners who have more World Series since he took ownership over from the Red Sox
Bloom was fired because he didn’t sell assets like that at the deadline for 2 straight seasons.
We are in remarkable shape going forward as we have Devers a top 5-10 hitter locked up, a lot of young MLB talent and to me what is looking like a for sure top 5 farm, and payroll flexibility
I’ve been critical but honest the last 2 years, but we are turning a corner. I’d probably sell this year but I think the selling is done after 2024. Henry does and will spend money on championship caliber teams
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Post by incandenza on Jun 8, 2024 8:29:47 GMT -5
Is anyone else angry at the sometimes lack of overall direction? What do you mean by "lack of direction"? Over the course of the last 4-5 years they've gone from having an expensive and aging core with a completely desolate farm system to a team that is stocked with young talent throughout the roster and with more on the way.
WAR from pre-arb/early career extended players (i.e., Whitlock/Bello/Rafaela):
2019: 7.7
2020: 9.7 (3.6 prorated to 162 games) 2021: 9.4 2022: 3.7 2023: 11.9 2024: 29.4 (11.6 prorated to 162 games)
And this is before the arrival of the strongest cohort of prospects the organization has had since the mid-2010s. The direction looks very clear to me.
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Post by costpet on Jun 8, 2024 9:12:48 GMT -5
I think the problem with Henry is that he doesn’t care anymore and doesn’t care what the fans think, either. It’s all about the money and he knows the fans will keep coming and handing him money, so why add to the payroll? It all part of his sports group, the Red Sox are just a part of it. He’s a businessman, not a sports fan. I’m sure those minor leaguers look great to him because they come cheap, which is the whole point. Last place finishes don’t affect him at all, so why care?
Red Sox fans are very passionate. Henry is not. That’s why we are today.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 8, 2024 9:48:49 GMT -5
0.0 is the amount of owners who have more World Series since he took ownership over from the Red Sox Bloom was fired because he didn’t sell assets like that at the deadline for 2 straight seasons. We are in remarkable shape going forward as we have Devers a top 5-10 hitter locked up, a lot of young MLB talent and to me what is looking like a for sure top 5 farm, and payroll flexibility I’ve been critical but honest the last 2 years, but we are turning a corner. I’d probably sell this year but I think the selling is done after 2024. Henry does and will spend money on championship caliber teams It's entirely possible that John Henry was the best owner in Red Sox history and one of the best in the history of the game and simultaneously not be a good owner decades later. Bloom was brought in to fix the farm and try to compete on a limited budget. What did Breslow do this off-season that was any different than Bloom? Even Bloom's big signing for Story was a way to trim salary. The farm is good, not great. I could be under-selling it, but either way it depends on the development of Teel, Mayer, and Anthony. Yorke is starting to look like a failed prospect. Bello is still developing and hopefully he can settle in as a 2. Casas is very promising. They got incredibly lucky with Houck and Crawford. Rafaela to me looks like a really good defensive utility guy. On one hand they've had a lot of these young kids for awhile and some of them are entering their prime years already like Duran, Devers and Houck. On the other hand it does take discipline to not move on from guys in a win-now window. With core guys being 27 they need to invest now. I think they could have invested more to compliment guys or just blow it up for a year instead of middling every year since 2019. The Red Sox are now 2 years in a row below the luxury tax with the 3rd highest revenue and 40 million coming off the books. Do you feel they will sign, not be interested in, but sign Soto or Burnes? Devers is really, really, really good with the bat, but every year he's inching closer and closer to that DH role. Long way of saying Henry was the best ever for them. I just don't think it's true any more. People and interests change over time. |
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Post by GyIantosca on Jun 8, 2024 9:53:00 GMT -5
I’m glad we have Breslow now.
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Post by bishop on Jun 8, 2024 9:56:24 GMT -5
0.0 is the amount of owners who have more World Series since he took ownership over from the Red Sox Bloom was fired because he didn’t sell assets like that at the deadline for 2 straight seasons. We are in remarkable shape going forward as we have Devers a top 5-10 hitter locked up, a lot of young MLB talent and to me what is looking like a for sure top 5 farm, and payroll flexibility I’ve been critical but honest the last 2 years, but we are turning a corner. I’d probably sell this year but I think the selling is done after 2024. Henry does and will spend money on championship caliber teams Can't argue with the first point and agree with your 3rd, but will Henry/FSG spend to the levels they used to again and was that really why Bloom was fired? Henry's an aloof billionaire, there are worse things in an owner, (and I do think he'll spend if he's still alive post 2030 when we hopefully have elite guys nearing the end of their arb years,) but there's been a fickleness from the ownership side through Cherington, Hazen, Dombrowski, Bloom despite 2 titles in that span. Saying things like this is asinine "(Werner's comments) overshadowed every other word, paragraph and interview of the winter because it reaches so deeply into the false belief that many fans and media have that you should mortgage the future each year for the present," he said. "You have to base acquisitions and dispositions on the future, not the past. That is unpopular generally." - yes you undoubtedly have a small (but vocal) segment of the fanbase who thinks we should be able to compete every year, but signing big name players is about acquiring them for the near term future and your chairman fed that part of the base red meat, why blame them for thinking you'd make big signings? How hard is it to admit you wanted to sign someone but the market was higher than you anticipated or thought made sense and they were more interested in making a superteam? I'm with incandenza etc that I really like where we are positioned, my biggest fear is ownership/management getting reactionary and pushing in too early, but it's worth noting attendance is at it's lowest levels since 1999. Fans are voting with their wallets, I don't think he really understands the why, but it's clear to me he's noticed. |
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Post by bellhorndingers21 on Jun 8, 2024 10:10:25 GMT -5
0.0 is the amount of owners who have more World Series since he took ownership over from the Red Sox Bloom was fired because he didn’t sell assets like that at the deadline for 2 straight seasons. We are in remarkable shape going forward as we have Devers a top 5-10 hitter locked up, a lot of young MLB talent and to me what is looking like a for sure top 5 farm, and payroll flexibility I’ve been critical but honest the last 2 years, but we are turning a corner. I’d probably sell this year but I think the selling is done after 2024. Henry does and will spend money on championship caliber teams Really well put response. If they go forward the next few seasons extending their core I'll have more confidence they've learned from their mistakes. |
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 8, 2024 10:22:46 GMT -5
I’m glad we have Breslow now. I'm mixed on Bloom. The Mookie trade was awful, but the throw-in piece Wong has salvaged it somewhat. The Story signing was awful, but The injuries weren't completely predictable. I believe there was a shoulder concern coming in. I think his road splits were a concern, but less sure of that. Everyone seems to really like Wilyer Abreu. Roman Anthony I think was a Bloom pick Marcelo Mayer as well. Pivetta was an excellent trade. He absolutely bungle the last deadline, but I said at the time I thought that was an indicator he was getting fired. The year before he made some nice trades at the deadline, but should have gotten under the luxury. He wasn't as good as hoped when dealing within the margins, but he accomplished his primary objective, I think, despite being told to compete while rebuilding, but don't spend. I don't think Breslow has really deviated much from Bloom, yet. I do like Breslow. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 8, 2024 10:41:20 GMT -5
A request:
Can we not rehash the ENTIRE discussion we had this offseason? If you want to discuss the new Henry interview then cool, but I really don't think there's a need to get back into the Bloom/Breslow/Dombrowski thing yet again. The new comments have absolutely nothing to do with that and it just gets really, really tiresome.
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Post by nelledouville on Jun 8, 2024 10:48:02 GMT -5
As someone who doesn't follow the game as much as I once did, I'm speaking from a place of visceral reaction to what Henry had to say. What I am about to write is not a point to defend, but rather meant as an illustration of how many casual fans react.
On first reading, I felt slighted. On first reading, it felt as if Henry declared that his commitment to going all out is conditional on an evaluation of likelihood of success. Any team expects - or hopes - fans are invested in the team every single year. And here it seemed as if the return on our emotional (and monetary) investment was conditional.
That was the visceral reaction. Good lord, I'm just about 70. I've spent a lot of life doing research, analysis, and investigatory work. And here I am...
That's why I lurk on sites like this one. Why I rarely contribute. I learn and gain perspective that helps keep the visceral from putting me at a team rally during the winter, booing.
Stepping away from the visceral, what he said makes sense. None of us wants to see the team blindly spend on free agents that do not advance the quality of the team but at best keep it wallowing in mediocrity. The one thing I will cling to - and I have no idea how the Sox compare to their competitors - is for a consistent heavy investment in scouting and analytics. For relatively cheap dollars (as compared to the cost of free agent talent at the big league level) the team can help set a good base for consistent competitive operation.
To sum, I'm trashing my visceral response. I suspect though that too many out here had the same initial reaction.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jun 8, 2024 11:40:14 GMT -5
Oh fun, this conversation again
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Post by blizzards39 on Jun 8, 2024 11:45:46 GMT -5
Is anyone else angry at the sometimes lack of overall direction? What do you mean by "lack of direction"? Over the course of the last 4-5 years they've gone from having an expensive and aging core with a completely desolate farm system to a team that is stocked with young talent throughout the roster and with more on the way.
WAR from pre-arb/early career extended players (i.e., Whitlock/Bello/Rafaela):
2019: 7.7
2020: 9.7 (3.6 prorated to 162 games) 2021: 9.4 2022: 3.7 2023: 11.9 2024: 29.4 (11.6 prorated to 162 games)
And this is before the arrival of the strongest cohort of prospects the organization has had since the mid-2010s. The direction looks very clear to me.
And largely without Casas, who is probably going to be an elite offensive talent year in and out |
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Post by badballhitter on Jun 8, 2024 12:25:02 GMT -5
I don't expect the Sox to win the World Series every year as Henry states, I don't think any reasonable fan thinks this. This is a ridiculous assessment by Henry, given that the team has had 3 losing seasons in 5 years and only 1 short playoff run in that span.
What I actually expect is playoff contention. With 6 playoff spots available and typically only 10-12 AL teams with legitimate playoff hopes to start any given season, I expect the Sox to make the playoffs about half the time (not 1 of the last 5) and play meaningful baseball in September most years even if they don't make it. Given the teams resources, just keeping pace with the blind odds seems like a fairly reasonable expectation.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 8, 2024 12:41:52 GMT -5
I don't expect the Sox to win the World Series every year as Henry states, I don't think any reasonable fan thinks this. This is a ridiculous assessment by Henry, given that the team has had 3 losing seasons in 5 years and only 1 short playoff run in that span. What I actually expect is playoff contention. With 6 playoff spots available and typically only 10-12 AL teams with legitimate playoff hopes to start any given season, I expect the Sox to make the playoffs about half the time (not 1 of the last 5) and play meaningful baseball in September most years even if they don't make it. Given the teams resources, just keeping pace with the blind odds seems like a fairly reasonable expectation. I agree with all of this (except that I wouldn't call a trip to the ALCS a "short playoff run").
What's kind of amazing is this was an email interview. In other words, when Henry refers to fans as expecting a championship almost annually that was his considered phrasing; it didn't occur to him that there was a more reasonable and empathic way to express the idea that fans tend to set high short-term standards, sometimes at the expense of long-term strategizing. (He might even have acknowledged that a major reason for the mediocrity of the last few seasons was the team's own previous lack of long-term strategizing.)
Anyways, I think the proper disposition toward any billionaire is casual contempt and beyond that I don't have any particular feelings about Henry. I just thought his hapless phrasing here was pretty amusing.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Jun 8, 2024 12:57:37 GMT -5
Hey, I know this a prospect board, but does anyone else want to discuss the Mookie Betts trade?
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Jun 8, 2024 13:05:24 GMT -5
Would it be nice if the Red Sox flexed their financial ability every year? Sure but at the same end since Henry took over they've won more WS than any other team. I have a hard time acting like Henry and Co are a bunch of monsters ruining baseball in Boston.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jun 8, 2024 13:34:28 GMT -5
... I for one haven't invested much into this team ... Uh huh. Yet here you are, first one up, starting a new thread on the Red Sox. That's "investment," with a capital "I" in my book. I've had the Yawkey & Harrington stewardships -- I don't mind JH so much. Four to One banners on the Yankees since he took over too. My Yankee friends are envious too while trying to convince themselves THIS is their year. Maybe? We'll see. But I wouldn't be shocked to see the Sox hang another first. Wouldn't that be a hoot! Wonder how the JH haters will treat it? Doubt they'll enjoy it. Too busy not paying attention, no doubt. Or finding ways to call it lucky or some such. Whatever. There's a game this afternoon and I'll be invested in it. |
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Post by rhswanzey on Jun 8, 2024 14:47:33 GMT -5
I believe he also wrote that the odds of a championship are about 1 in 20 to 1 in 30. What is that probability based on? Do the odds in one year exist completely independently of the following year? How does one explain the Giants winning three in five years with largely the same core players? They had odds that long in each of those three seasons independent from one another?
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Post by greenmonster on Jun 8, 2024 14:55:32 GMT -5
I believe he also wrote that the odds of a championship are about 1 in 20 to 1 in 30. What is that probability based on? Do the odds in one year exist completely independently of the following year? How does one explain the Giants winning three in five years with largely the same core players? They had odds that long in each of those three seasons independent from one another? 30 teams...1 champion. I don't think he put any more thought into than that. |
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Post by rhswanzey on Jun 8, 2024 16:53:55 GMT -5
I believe he also wrote that the odds of a championship are about 1 in 20 to 1 in 30. What is that probability based on? Do the odds in one year exist completely independently of the following year? How does one explain the Giants winning three in five years with largely the same core players? They had odds that long in each of those three seasons independent from one another? 30 teams...1 champion. I don't think he put any more thought into than that. Thanks for clearing it up, that makes sense. Signing Yamamoto would have given us a better chance this year, but there’d still be a 1 in 30 chance in 2025. Gotta love it |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jun 8, 2024 18:53:03 GMT -5
He apparently doesn't realize we are entitled to more.
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Post by dirtdog on Jun 8, 2024 19:24:51 GMT -5
My opinion; He came across as an out of touch/ non self aware billionaire, who looks at the team as nothing more than an appreciating asset. Yesterday he gave the fans the finger. If he didn't own one of the local newspaper there probably would have been made a big stink about it.
My guess is once the team falls out of contention, whenever that is, the fans are gonna give him the double finger, by not attending games or watching NESN. One of the reasons Bloom got fired I read was a 9% attendance drop. Well I think it will be worse than that. The natives are getting restless and the well of good will is running dry.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 8, 2024 22:20:50 GMT -5
My opinion; He came across as an out of touch/ non self aware billionaire, who looks at the team as nothing more than an appreciating asset. Yesterday he gave the fans the finger. If he didn't own one of the local newspaper there probably would have been made a big stink about it. My guess is once the team falls out of contention, whenever that is, the fans are gonna give him the double finger, by not attending games or watching NESN. One of the reasons Bloom got fired I read was a 9% attendance drop. Well I think it will be worse than that. The natives are getting restless and the well of good will is running dry. Well put. He seems to think that Red Sox Nation is composed of the lowest common denominator of fans. Most fans are reasonable in that they dont expect the Sox to win the Series each year, but they expect the Sox to be in the post season with a legit chance at winning the Series definitely more than half the time given that the threshold for making the postseason has been watered down enough that 40% of the league makes it. Most Red Sox fans can do without a Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen type of trade and want to see the Sox build with a young core, but we remember that Pedroia, Lester, Papelbon, Ellsbury, and Buchholz were integrated into a veteran core featuring some stars where they could develop without the pressure of turning around the franchise. The Red Sox generate a lot of revenue and have a huge franchise price tag should they be sold so yes they should always be in the mix for top notch free agent talent. I'm not overly concerned for John Henry's profit margin. I didnt care for his characterization of the Sox as an "asset". It makes them sound like a balance sheet item, which is not how most fans, particularly devoted fans like myself see them. The Red Sox are part of your family, an institution that means something that you love. Instead of saying something like, "I wont sell the Red Sox because I love them too much to do it or it's a big part of me", that would have resonated with me, but instead to him, they're just a piece of their growing conglomerate, no more special than Liverpool Soccer or Penguins hockey, or Roush racing or whatever PGA or Lebron related ventures they have going on. Didnt used to be like that. Henry regarded the Sox as the crown jewel, a sacred stewardship, and it showed with the support he gave that team. That's clearly not how he sees them anymore. He doesnt even show up for them anymore instead sending his wife in for appearances or having his mouthpiece Sam Kwnnedy speak for him. It's very off putting to me. I'm very capable of holding these two different thoughts in my head at the same time about John Henry which are 1) his ownership group that he headed will go down as the greatest in Red Sox history when all is said and done and 2) for the past 5 years he has been an absentee owner who has been neglectful of the Sox because he has bigger fish to fry and its obvious the Sox are no longer a passion of his and as he has reduced spending and the Sox have been mired in mediocrity where they have missed the playoffs four years out of 5 and are primed to miss again this year and unless something changes will probably miss the next year or two until the promising kids in the system are ready to hit their stride in the majors as that can take time. And this extended malaise has been noticed by fans as the ballpark in which games were always sold out, now has plenty of tickets available for meaningless August and September games. NESN's ratings are down and the local media barely pays attention to them anymore. For me personally I will always love my Sox no matter what, but I dont find the Sox to be riveting must watch TV and the highs and lows I'd get from wins or losses have waned as I dont get excited by the wins and the losses dont really bother me because they're not going anywhere anyways which is what really bothers me as I wonder how many more years of irrelevance and apathy there will be until they have a team I can get passionate about and are deserving of my time from the start to the finish of a game. |
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Post by gerry on Jun 9, 2024 3:09:07 GMT -5
Champs. I feel your angst. And agree about the Sox being a sacred local trust. Beginning with my grandfathers more than a century ago through 6 generations of a large extended family down to our grandkids and great grandkids we are diehard Sox fans. This is a common beantown story.
I treasure the recent Sox dominant play from 2003 to 2021 and share your concern about the mis-steps of the past few years. But I am fully confident we will see it again soon. We are seeing the positive changes.
I also understand John Henry’s reluctance to be in the spotlight. He is a quiet, reserved man who is uncomfortable in its light, just like millions of people.
Moreover, after ALL he has done for the team and us, the fans, he has been increasingly pilloried online and in the media; and recently been booed by the same type of fans who relentlessly booed Ted Williams in my day, threw batteries at JDDrew and this week threw bottles
at their players. Remember what Ted said to these morons masquerading as fans? I do. Why should JH feel compelled to face us during this insane period of historic vitriol and violent rhetoric. I can enjoy my house and simultaneously consider it an asset. What’s wrong with that?
Kennedy as his mouthpiece? C’mon. He is the Red Sox President. He, not JH, is the appropriate public persona of the Red Sox. We hear from Sam, Breslow, Cora and staff on a regular basis. Why should we expect more?
Finally, despite 14-16 injuries; despite losing foundational players like Whitlock, Giolito, Martin, Story,
ONeill, Yoshida, Casas, Abreu, Grissom and many more, the Sox continue to hang in. It’s been a season of genuine highs and frustrating lows, which is draining for avid fans like you and me. So draining. But this team, healthy, is a very good team, even without several big ticket items we didn’t sign (and dodged a few bullets in doing so.).
I have never expected payroll to remain at the level of huge markets like NY, LA, CHI, DFW and have been pleased to always be in the $200M range. Come next off-season if the Sox don’t fill out this roster of amazing young talent with a star veteran or two and spend closer to the Tax-send me the receipt for a good meal and I will pay the bill. And I don’t gamble.
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