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John Henry/Sox ownership/direction
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 3, 2024 12:11:48 GMT -5
1. Than don't clearly lie to fans. 2. Sell off assets. Letting players like XB, JDM, Eovaldi etc Walk for nothing doesn't seem like a smart decision if the whole plan was 2025/2026ish 3. Why not sign players for shortish contracts at a decent AAV that you can likely flip at the deadline if you are out? 1) What "clear lie" did ownership sell to the fans? 2) XB and Eovaldi did not walk for nothing they received QOs and the Sox got picks, one can argue that they should have ducked under the LT that season to get 2nd round picks not 4th but that argument has been beat to death on this site so I'm not going to go there. 3) What theoretical players should they have signed this offseason on short term AAV deals that would have helped the team or been flipped at the deadline this year? The list is extremely small so not sure what the argument is here. These all seem like GM, HOBO/POBO responsibilities to me. JH isn't micro managing those aspects of the team. |
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jul 3, 2024 12:42:28 GMT -5
1) What "clear lie" did ownership sell to the fans? 2) XB and Eovaldi did not walk for nothing they received QOs and the Sox got picks, one can argue that they should have ducked under the LT that season to get 2nd round picks not 4th but that argument has been beat to death on this site so I'm not going to go there. 3) What theoretical players should they have signed this offseason on short term AAV deals that would have helped the team or been flipped at the deadline this year? The list is extremely small so not sure what the argument is here. These all seem like GM, HOBO/POBO responsibilities to me. JH isn't micro managing those aspects of the team. It's funny how things work out. That 4th round pick has turned into a top 100 prospect, albeit due totally to luck rather than draft position but still. I'll take luck all day. |
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Post by vaulter on Jul 3, 2024 12:51:35 GMT -5
1. Than don't clearly lie to fans. 2. Sell off assets. Letting players like XB, JDM, Eovaldi etc Walk for nothing doesn't seem like a smart decision if the whole plan was 2025/2026ish 3. Why not sign players for shortish contracts at a decent AAV that you can likely flip at the deadline if you are out? 1) What "clear lie" did ownership sell to the fans? 2) XB and Eovaldi did not walk for nothing they received QOs and the Sox got picks, one can argue that they should have ducked under the LT that season to get 2nd round picks not 4th but that argument has been beat to death on this site so I'm not going to go there. 3) What theoretical players should they have signed this offseason on short term AAV deals that would have helped the team or been flipped at the deadline this year? The list is extremely small so not sure what the argument is here. 1) Tom Werner's "full throttle" comment? |
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 3, 2024 12:56:55 GMT -5
1) What "clear lie" did ownership sell to the fans? 2) XB and Eovaldi did not walk for nothing they received QOs and the Sox got picks, one can argue that they should have ducked under the LT that season to get 2nd round picks not 4th but that argument has been beat to death on this site so I'm not going to go there. 3) What theoretical players should they have signed this offseason on short term AAV deals that would have helped the team or been flipped at the deadline this year? The list is extremely small so not sure what the argument is here. 1) Tom Werner's "full throttle" comment? Ya? Where is the lie? He didn't come out and say we're going to spend X dollars or sign Y player? Was it a stupid comment? Yes, but hardly a "clear lie". |
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Post by seamus on Jul 3, 2024 13:03:57 GMT -5
Any fan that thinks PR statements are delivered under oath and should be taken at face value should probably reevaluate things. Yeah, Werner's full throttle comment doesn't necessarily come across great in retrospect, but I don't think he was knowingly lying. He didn't say, "We are going to sign Yamamoto" and then instruct the front office to not meet with him. There's a difference between things not working out because not everything is 100% within your control and deliberately choosing not to attempt what you said you would.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 3, 2024 13:20:21 GMT -5
And BECAUSE of that overall lazy approach, in part, is playing a role in a rebuild that's going to take 7 or so years which is inexcusable for a team with as many resources as boston. Baltimore/KC? Sure, they have to. Boston? Shouldn't be the case. Oh yeah, this thread... That reminds me that the argument here is that the organization is adrift because they are in the midst of a 7 year rebuild. Except it's very possible that the entire stretch of "noncompetitiveness" will turn out to be two consecutive 78-win seasons? |
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Post by seamus on Jul 3, 2024 13:43:12 GMT -5
And BECAUSE of that overall lazy approach, in part, is playing a role in a rebuild that's going to take 7 or so years which is inexcusable for a team with as many resources as boston. Baltimore/KC? Sure, they have to. Boston? Shouldn't be the case. Oh yeah, this thread... That reminds me that the argument here is that the organization is adrift because they are in the midst of a 7 year rebuild. Except it's very possible that the entire stretch of "noncompetitiveness" will turn out to be two consecutive 78-win seasons? And 78-win seasons where they didn't really fall out of the race until well after the trade deadline and had some exciting stretches in the middle of the summer. I don't think all Sox fans really understand how much of a difference there is between hopeless, 100+ loss dreck and what's essentially .500 ball. |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jul 3, 2024 17:54:21 GMT -5
Fella & Mazzoli loose in the house?
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briam
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Post by briam on Jul 8, 2024 12:45:23 GMT -5
A few folks are annoyed by this but honestly nothing good ever happens when JH speaks about the Sox so this is his best path.
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 8, 2024 12:47:28 GMT -5
A few folks are annoyed by this but honestly nothing good ever happens when JH speaks about the Sox so this is his best path. Yup... damned if you d, damned if you don't... The media wants him to speak because they know that people will click on it..... and he knows that |
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Post by trotnixon7 on Jul 8, 2024 14:17:51 GMT -5
And BECAUSE of that overall lazy approach, in part, is playing a role in a rebuild that's going to take 7 or so years which is inexcusable for a team with as many resources as boston. Baltimore/KC? Sure, they have to. Boston? Shouldn't be the case. Oh yeah, this thread... That reminds me that the argument here is that the organization is adrift because they are in the midst of a 7 year rebuild. Except it's very possible that the entire stretch of "noncompetitiveness" will turn out to be two consecutive 78-win seasons? 5 year stretch of being a total of 356-352 and 3 last place finishes isn't what I'd call success/being competitive. They snuck in 1 good year where they made the playoffs on game 162. What I found more frustrating? The lack of return for assets walking out. They exchanged mookie, JDM, bogearts, eovaldi etc for..what exactly? Terrible misuse of assets overall. |
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 8, 2024 15:22:29 GMT -5
Oh yeah, this thread... That reminds me that the argument here is that the organization is adrift because they are in the midst of a 7 year rebuild. Except it's very possible that the entire stretch of "noncompetitiveness" will turn out to be two consecutive 78-win seasons? 5 year stretch of being a total of 356-352 and 3 last place finishes isn't what I'd call success/being competitive. They snuck in 1 good year where they made the playoffs on game 162. What I found more frustrating? The lack of return for assets walking out.
They exchanged mookie, JDM, bogearts, eovaldi etc for..what exactly? Terrible misuse of assets overall. Bloom's job, right? He was fired. Not sure what the highlighted has to do with Henry/Ownership. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 8, 2024 15:31:06 GMT -5
Nothing at all. Please, all of you, stop beating the Bloom straw crypto-man. Ownership delegates authority and right now Breslow and his team are making the decisions.
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Post by pappyman99 on Jul 8, 2024 21:56:48 GMT -5
Nothing at all. Please, all of you, stop beating the Bloom straw crypto-man. Ownership delegates authority and right now Breslow and his team are making the decisions. I get so confused because that’s how it’s literally always been, even when we had like a trifecta running things while Theo was so briefly gone, power was given to them to make a huge trade |
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Post by trotnixon7 on Jul 9, 2024 13:08:19 GMT -5
5 year stretch of being a total of 356-352 and 3 last place finishes isn't what I'd call success/being competitive. They snuck in 1 good year where they made the playoffs on game 162. What I found more frustrating? The lack of return for assets walking out.
They exchanged mookie, JDM, bogearts, eovaldi etc for..what exactly? Terrible misuse of assets overall. Bloom's job, right? He was fired. Not sure what the highlighted has to do with Henry/Ownership. I'd say yes and no. If you believe Bloom had 100% authority to pretty do whatever he wanted? Maybe. But I view his tenure more in line with ben who had more ownership meddling..than the Theo/DD tenures. BUT overall I think Bloom was trying to thread the needle of trying to at least sell the idea they were competitive WHILE rebuilding everything..due to ownership. |
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Post by orion09 on Jul 12, 2024 13:01:32 GMT -5
I have info from an ex-Sox player that Cora is gone after the season and going to either NYY or LAD. Take that with however much of a grain of salt you prefer.
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 12, 2024 13:03:00 GMT -5
I have info from an ex-Sox player that Cora is gone after the season and going to either NYY or LAD. Take that with however much of a grain of salt you prefer. You got that from Thomas lol. Because those exact teams were reported by him (or Cotillo like 2 weeks ago) |
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Post by orion09 on Jul 12, 2024 13:16:49 GMT -5
I have info from an ex-Sox player that Cora is gone after the season and going to either NYY or LAD. Take that with however much of a grain of salt you prefer. You got that from Thomas lol. Because those exact teams were reported by him (or Cotillo like 2 weeks ago) Not sure who Thomas is. Didn’t see the article, so it’s possible he was just repeating a publicly available article in which case it’s not much of a scoop. I assumed it hadn’t been reported yet |
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Jul 12, 2024 13:19:15 GMT -5
Cora will be free to go wherever he wants. Wouldn't really bother me all that much. Managers have a rather small effect on a team in my opinion. The only downside is Boone is a trash manager so from that angle it would almost certainly be an upgrade for the yankees.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 12, 2024 17:26:09 GMT -5
This might be unpopular but I would love it if Cora went to the Yankeees. I find managers relatively easily replaceable and that would really reignite some rivalry feelings
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 12, 2024 18:15:23 GMT -5
This might be unpopular but I would love it if Cora went to the Yankeees. I find managers relatively easily replaceable and that would really reignite some rivalry feelings Want no part of that. Cora is a better manager than Boone. Why would I want to see Cora there? I also dont think managers are interchangeable as some around here think they are. I remember the year of Morgan Magic. I have no doubt McNamara's removal and weird refusal to play Jody Reed at SS over Spike Owen and change of atmosphere in the clubhouse was a difference maker. I have no doubt Bobby Valentine as manager created a team mutiny and soured the season. The change to Farrell allowed the veterans to relax. I'm not saying that a manager can turn a 90 loss team to a 90 win team. But I'm saying that they make a ton of decisions and no two guys are going to make the same exact decisions. There will be a ton of variances in the decisions and I dont believe that those differing decisions dont show up differently from manager to manager. Billy Martin, for all his issues, had a knack of taking lousy teams and dramatically improve them and then theyd eventually self destruct. I have no doubt Cora's presence in 18 and his coming back in 21 helped the team. I think he was kind of going thru the motions out of frustration by the end of last year bit I think he's done a fantastic job this year as manager. I think with another manager they might not be much more than .500. His players play for him. I think not being able to reach Verdugo last year weighed on him.o think with the way he's used his roster and maneuvered his pitching staff, that he deserves an awful lot of credit. Maybe he leaves and they hire the next Earl Weaver, who by the way was an excellent impactful manager, and they're fine, but I think whoever succeeds him is less likely to be as good a manager. I hope we dont find out but I do believe he's a goner, they wont him him Craig Counsell money but the Yankees or Dodgers would and if the Yankees go down in flames I think Boone probably will go. The lack of effort by a few of his players doesn't reflect well on him. |
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 12, 2024 18:20:13 GMT -5
This might be unpopular but I would love it if Cora went to the Yankeees. I find managers relatively easily replaceable and that would really reignite some rivalry feelings Want no part of that. Cora is a better manager than Boone. Why would I want to see Cora there? I also dont think managers are interchangeable as some around here think they are. I remember the year of Morgan Magic. I have no doubt McNamara's removal and weird refusal to play Jody Reed at SS over Spike Owen and change of atmosphere in the clubhouse was a difference maker. I have no doubt Bobby Valentine as manager created a team mutiny and soured the season. The change to Farrell allowed the veterans to relax. I'm not saying that a manager can turn a 90 loss team to a 90 win team. But I'm saying that they make a ton of decisions and no two guys are going to make the same exact decisions. There will be a ton of variances in the decisions and I dont believe that those differing decisions dont show up differently from manager to manager. Billy Martin, for all his issues, had a knack of taking lousy teams and dramatically improve them and then theyd eventually self destruct. I have no doubt Cora's presence in 18 and his coming back in 21 helped the team. I think he was kind of going thru the motions out of frustration by the end of last year bit I think he's done a fantastic job this year as manager. I think with another manager they might not be much more than .500. His players play for him. I think not being able to reach Verdugo last year weighed on him.o think with the way he's used his roster and maneuvered his pitching staff, that he deserves an awful lot of credit. Maybe he leaves and they hire the next Earl Weaver, who by the way was an excellent impactful manager, and they're fine, but I think whoever succeeds him is less likely to be as good a manager. I hope we dont find out but I do believe he's a goner, they wont him him Craig Counsell money but the Yankees or Dodgers would and if the Yankees go down in flames I think Boone probably will go. The lack of effort by a few of his players doesn't reflect well on him. Genuinely mean this - I really enjoy when you go into the history tangents, even if we disagree on the implications in this particular case. As to the why: if you think managers are hard to replace and Cora will add a lot to the Yankees and cost the Red Sox a lot you shouldn't want this at all. I personally think that this would be a low on field cost for a high entertainment value gain, so I'm for it. |
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Jul 12, 2024 18:31:33 GMT -5
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 12, 2024 18:39:24 GMT -5
Want no part of that. Cora is a better manager than Boone. Why would I want to see Cora there? I also dont think managers are interchangeable as some around here think they are. I remember the year of Morgan Magic. I have no doubt McNamara's removal and weird refusal to play Jody Reed at SS over Spike Owen and change of atmosphere in the clubhouse was a difference maker. I have no doubt Bobby Valentine as manager created a team mutiny and soured the season. The change to Farrell allowed the veterans to relax. I'm not saying that a manager can turn a 90 loss team to a 90 win team. But I'm saying that they make a ton of decisions and no two guys are going to make the same exact decisions. There will be a ton of variances in the decisions and I dont believe that those differing decisions dont show up differently from manager to manager. Billy Martin, for all his issues, had a knack of taking lousy teams and dramatically improve them and then theyd eventually self destruct. I have no doubt Cora's presence in 18 and his coming back in 21 helped the team. I think he was kind of going thru the motions out of frustration by the end of last year bit I think he's done a fantastic job this year as manager. I think with another manager they might not be much more than .500. His players play for him. I think not being able to reach Verdugo last year weighed on him.o think with the way he's used his roster and maneuvered his pitching staff, that he deserves an awful lot of credit. Maybe he leaves and they hire the next Earl Weaver, who by the way was an excellent impactful manager, and they're fine, but I think whoever succeeds him is less likely to be as good a manager. I hope we dont find out but I do believe he's a goner, they wont him him Craig Counsell money but the Yankees or Dodgers would and if the Yankees go down in flames I think Boone probably will go. The lack of effort by a few of his players doesn't reflect well on him. Genuinely mean this - I really enjoy when you go into the history tangents, even if we disagree on the implications in this particular case. As to the why: if you think managers are hard to replace and Cora will add a lot to the Yankees and cost the Red Sox a lot you shouldn't want this at all. I personally think that this would be a low on field cost for a high entertainment value gain, so I'm for it. Well I was going to say how about we take one of theirs instead of them taking one of ours? Then because i do like my historical tangents, and I'm glad you get a kick out if them, thank you, i realized the Sox did pluck away a Yankee managing legend, Joe McCarthy, but the same manager who oversaw 4 straight championships for the Yankees made two hideous decisions in key games at the end of the 1948 and 1949 seasons that cost the Red Sox 2 pennants and then the following season was relieved of his duties so he could dry out, as he was a major alcoholic. So no not that I'm saying Boone is a lush like McCarthy was, but I don't want their guy managing our team, lol. I get that you'll get a kick out of the histrionics if Cora goes and worse heads to the Yankees, but honestly there's only 2 managers I've seen the Sox let go in 40 something years in which I was displeased with seeing them go and that was Joe Morgan and Terry Francona. Cora would be the 3rd. I was happy to see Morgan's and Francona's replacements get the boot though. |
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Post by bishop on Jul 13, 2024 13:34:50 GMT -5
Feels like the Cora stuff might deserve it's own thread, but if this reporting is true I see it as a positive for ownership. Salary reporting varies but the Sox pay him about $3m now, the Yanks pay Boone about $3m, the Dodgers about $3.25m to Roberts, and the Cubs went and blew away the market by paying Counsell $8m/y. Personally I don't think baseball managers affect things as much as NBA or NFL/NCAA Football coaches and don't think they need to be paid as such, if Cora can get a 2nd team to pay him $8-$10m a year I don't want to see him badmouthed on the way out but I'd let him leave too and try to sign a similar guy in that $3m range. If you see him as a top 3/top 5 manager in the game maybe you feel differently, but I'm happy if Breslow/Baseball Ops can make that call. (Plus there's a chance a lot of these leaks are posturing - how much do you raise his salary in the absence of a monster offer from elsewhere? If he wants 5/$40m like Counsell and has no offer close to that I'm fine standing my ground and saying that Counsell deal was like Deshaun Watson's, it's an outlier not the new expectation. Pedro Grifol is #2 at $5.5m? ) |
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