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90% of Prospect Success is Half Mental
ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 14, 2024 12:22:05 GMT -5
Here are the ceilings of six former prospects, together with their current on-pace WAR (fWAR per 150 games started for position players, bWAR per 30 starts for pitchers).
"High-quality swingman, capable of pitching in short or long relief outings with the occasional spot start as well." WAR rate, 3.6. "Solid reserve utility player." WAR rate, 4.4. "Platoon catcher who will have a season or two of starter-level production." WAR rate, 5.0. "An average regular." WAR rate, 5.5 "A fringe, second-division regular." WAR rate, 5.9.
"A back-end starter." WAR rate, 6.4
(Crawford, Hamilton, Wong, Abreu, Durran, Houck.)
Lacking context, you'd think these were embarrassing mistakes. I think they were perfectly defensible. Only two things (closely related) were overlooked, and for the most part, by necessity.
1) The thread title. When you have a prospect who never gets down on themselves, is a tireless worker obsessed with achieving greatness, and is open-minded to suggestions from coaches, the ceiling explodes upwards.
2) Guys like this are rare, and there's no easy way for an outsider to identify them. However, the Red Sox have understood the value of great makeup, and actively searched for it, going back to Theo (and I heard that from him and my immediate boss, Jed Hoyer. It's worth noting that Sox prospects who make the top 100 fare significantly better than average, so there is hard data to back this up.) It's quite clear that this approach has been passed along from regime to regime.
However however, knowing that at any time there are (say) a handful of prospects in the system who are likely or even destined to outperform their ceiling doesn't tell you who the guys are. Sometimes we get clues -- Yorke was described along these lines, and I think he's currently raked too low -- but more often than not, we don't know.
For instance ....
No matter how much you struggle initially learning the art of catching fly balls, there is, in theory, a degree of practice, a number or reps, that will solve that problem, and a further number of reps that will make you excel. The catch of course is that very few guys will do the second stage of that work, who will not settle for average competence but who feel compelled to achieve excellence. The mind boggles at how much work that would entail.
These guys are golden, and teams that are on the lookout for them have a big edge on those who don't. From our point of view, we just need to keep all this in mind: the total value of the prospects in the system is very likely greater than the sun of the pieces, as we see them.
I thin that 45% may be too low.
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keninten
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Post by keninten on Jun 14, 2024 15:41:07 GMT -5
This seems to go with my belief that some players should be pushed instead of being careful with promotions. It really should be about their personalities. Players that thrive under pressure always seem to excel. The dirt dogs types will do all the little things to win. When they have talent and that attitude they have a much better chance to be an All-Star. Tell a guy like Pedey he can`t do something and he`ll find a way.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 14, 2024 16:32:03 GMT -5
I don't think a guy performing at a given level for 2.5 months (or in some of these cases, even less - or FAR less - than that) is a mistake at all, embarrassing or otherwise. Or whatever else is being posited here.
The answer is that a projected value, ceiling, or floor is looking at a period of, depending who you talk to, the guy's career or at least his years of team control. Sometimes guys exceed all projections, for sure. But like, David Hamilton has had 2 good weeks. Houck is finally doing this in his 4th MLB season. Plus there's the context of when a report is from, etc.
I don't want this to come off as defensive, I just think the underlying premise is nonsense, as is the "the Red Sox just identify special players!" or whatever it is conclusion. The Red Sox have also selected multiple felons, first round busts, guys who got 7-figure bonuses that scouts NPed in their first camp, etc. during my time with SoxProspects. It's a crapshoot and some teams are better at it. The Red Sox have generally done really well at it! Hence 4 rings, right?
Either that or something the Red Sox thought 20 years ago (that I can't quite grasp from the post) still holds perfectly true 20ish years later. But long story short, the idea that the Red Sox are the only team that scouts makeup, which is literally what's being described here, is kind of hilarious.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 14, 2024 16:49:30 GMT -5
I don't think a guy performing at a given level for 2.5 months (or in some of these cases, even less - or FAR less - than that) is a mistake at all, embarrassing or otherwise. Or whatever else is being posited here. The answer is that a projected value, ceiling, or floor is looking at a period of, depending who you talk to, the guy's career or at least his years of team control. Sometimes guys exceed all projections, for sure. But like, David Hamilton has had 2 good weeks. Houck is finally doing this in his 4th MLB season. Plus there's the context of when a report is from, etc. I don't want this to come off as defensive, I just think the underlying premise is nonsense, as is the "the Red Sox just identify special players!" or whatever it is conclusion. The Red Sox have also selected multiple felons, first round busts, guys who got 7-figure bonuses that scouts NPed in their first camp, etc. during my time with SoxProspects. It's a crapshoot and some teams are better at it. The Red Sox have generally done really well at it! Hence 4 rings, right? Either that or something the Red Sox thought 20 years ago (that I can't quite grasp from the post) still holds perfectly true 20ish years later. But long story short, the idea that the Red Sox are the only team that scouts makeup, which is literally what's being described here, is kind of hilarious. Agree with everything you said but what is “NPed”? Is that “non-prospect”?
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jun 14, 2024 16:50:45 GMT -5
If there’s actual hard data to prove that Sox prospects in the top 100 fare better… can you provide it?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 14, 2024 17:05:47 GMT -5
Agree with everything you said but what is “NPed”? Is that “non-prospect”? To "NP" is scoutspeak for labeling a guy as a non-prospect, yes.
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Post by rickasadoorian on Jun 14, 2024 17:07:24 GMT -5
I don't think a guy performing at a given level for 2.5 months (or in some of these cases, even less - or FAR less - than that) is a mistake at all, embarrassing or otherwise. Or whatever else is being posited here. The answer is that a projected value, ceiling, or floor is looking at a period of, depending who you talk to, the guy's career or at least his years of team control. Sometimes guys exceed all projections, for sure. But like, David Hamilton has had 2 good weeks. Houck is finally doing this in his 4th MLB season. Plus there's the context of when a report is from, etc. I don't want this to come off as defensive, I just think the underlying premise is nonsense, as is the "the Red Sox just identify special players!" or whatever it is conclusion. The Red Sox have also selected multiple felons, first round busts, guys who got 7-figure bonuses that scouts NPed in their first camp, etc. during my time with SoxProspects. It's a crapshoot and some teams are better at it. The Red Sox have generally done really well at it! Hence 4 rings, right? Either that or something the Red Sox thought 20 years ago (that I can't quite grasp from the post) still holds perfectly true 20ish years later. But long story short, the idea that the Red Sox are the only team that scouts makeup, which is literally what's being described here, is kind of hilarious. Pretty sure every single guy he mentioned is a guy who missed a year of development (2020), too. That might be something, but if it is, it's going to be league wide. Maybe those guys took a little longer to hit their stride, and there would be a legit reason as to why. On another note, every guy he named is also entering or in their prime years so there's that too. What it isn't, is the Sox having some secret sauce.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 14, 2024 18:20:45 GMT -5
I think there can be some merit to both sides here. I am definitely inclined to believe that mental makeup can influence the chances a guy makes it. Can we identify it? Can professional scouts or coaches? Are the Red Sox particularly good at it? Are Eric’s particular examples all actually due to mental makeup? These things I’m much less sure on.
I think often we ascribe mental fortitude as a reason things happened post-hoc, and it cuts both ways. How many times on here have we seen the lineup described as “gutless” because they didn’t get a clutch hit? I think it’s really difficult to parse out when and for which players it ended up being the difference, but I don’t think that means we should dismiss it as a driver of success altogether.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 14, 2024 23:18:59 GMT -5
I think there can be some merit to both sides here. I am definitely inclined to believe that mental makeup can influence the chances a guy makes it. There are not two sides. It's called makeup and teams have always scouted it.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 15, 2024 7:37:44 GMT -5
I think there can be some merit to both sides here. I am definitely inclined to believe that mental makeup can influence the chances a guy makes it. There are not two sides. It's called makeup and teams have always scouted it. Yeah I am saying to Eric’s original point that under appreciating makeup or misunderstanding a guy’s makeup could be a reason evaluators miss on a guy. I also don’t think that’s an indictment of the evaluator
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Post by orion09 on Jun 15, 2024 7:43:01 GMT -5
It doesn’t seem unreasonable to me suggest that the Sox may be more focused on makeup than the average team, or better at identifying it. I seem to remember reading several Globe articles over the last 10 years to that effect. It’s also true that the Sox have been at the forefront of selecting for certain soft skills (the reflex test, for example, which the Sox had invested in at the time, which famously pegged Betts as super-elite before the draft). I don’t know how much that particular test would help in selecting for pitchers, though I do remember Houck being touted as a plus-plus makeup guy shortly after he was drafted. Anyway, it’s a lot of piecemeal evidence, but I don’t have trouble believing that the Sox may be above-average at this part of scouting.
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Post by itinerantherb on Jun 15, 2024 9:43:13 GMT -5
There are not two sides. It's called makeup and teams have always scouted it. Yeah I am saying to Eric’s original point that under appreciating makeup or misunderstanding a guy’s makeup could be a reason evaluators miss on a guy. I also don’t think that’s an indictment of the evaluator This is the way I read the original post, too: That make-up is an underappreciated variable, at least among fans and perhaps among some teams, and that it doesn't lend itself to conventional measurement, the way that many on-field traits do. After all, how can you know how someone handles baseball-related adversity and disappointment if they've never faced significant adversity or disappointment. To imply that a particular evaluator overlooked exceptional drive, or grit, or self-awareness, or maturity, or whatever other personal traits qualify as "make-up" is not a criticism. It's the nature of "intangibles" that they're, you know, intangible.
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jimoh
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Posts: 4,138
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Post by jimoh on Jun 15, 2024 10:00:32 GMT -5
[...] No matter how much you struggle initially learning the art of catching fly balls, there is, in theory, a degree of practice, a number or reps, that will solve that problem, and a further number of reps that will make you excel. The catch of course is that very few guys will do the second stage of that work, who will not settle for average competence but who feel compelled to achieve excellence. The mind boggles at how much work that would entail.
These guys are golden, and teams that are on the lookout for them have a big edge on those who don't. From our point of view, we just need to keep all this in mind: the total value of the prospects in the system is very likely greater than the sun of the pieces, as we see them.
[...] The words in theory are doing a lot of work here, as the rest of this paragraph and the next offer no hesitation. You seem to be suggesting that any player can be taught to "excel" at catching fly balls, given enough hard work and practice and "reps." This seems unlikely to be true. The more reasonable claim that most young players need to work far harder than most of us could imagine to make the most of their natural skills seems both true, and something that most teams would know.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 15, 2024 11:10:15 GMT -5
In the same draft as Tanner Houck and Kutter Crawford (clearly two guys who have done very well at maximizing their talents whether due to character or other reasons), they drafted Brett Netzer.
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Post by rickasadoorian on Jun 15, 2024 11:18:25 GMT -5
In the same draft as Tanner Houck and Kutter Crawford (clearly two guys who have done very well at maximizing their talents whether due to character or other reasons), they drafted Brett Netzer. And Houck was a first round pick. It's not like other teams weren't aware of him.
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