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gerry
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Posts: 1,768
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Post by gerry on Jul 17, 2024 18:33:14 GMT -5
As Tip O’Neill famously said “all politics is local”. That wisdom is not limited to baseball. The owners just cut out local baseball in 30 smallish towns. It may have been structurally justified, maybe. The disappearance of 30 more local teams can not be structurally justified; nor in PR/marketing/fan base/player development terms.
No offense to anyone but the world changed when necessarily narrow view CFO’s became more powerful than the big picture presidents and CEO’s. Giving up local support is just shortsighted pennypinching, and could lead to retrenchment
TV and slick marketing can not and does not replace baseball’s ~ 150 year bottom up fan base, the very foundation of pro baseball.
Sadly baseball is not collegiate based. College baseball teams seldom play to sellout crowds like money-making football and basketball. Those sports use college programs not only to develop talent but to sustain and build their fanbase. It will cost MLB more $$ (and fans) to develop this model than to maintain their historic one; and there would be no guarantee of success. This is nuts.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jul 17, 2024 19:29:42 GMT -5
Maybe the NHL model works better? HS kids get drafted and can either go to college or to one of several independent leagues, with the NHL club retaining their rights. NHL teams maintain only one minor league affiliate, the equivalent of baseball AAA, so they can easily shuttle players up and down. In such a scenario, everything from AA down would be various independent leagues with mixed, non-affiliated teams, while colleges absorb a percentage of drafted kids. Would MLB FOs really be comfortable farming out all pre-AAA coaching and development to independent or colleges coaches/training staffs, the way hockey does? It would certainly save them money.
One reason college football and basketball are so popular and profitable is that the level of play is much closer to the pros than in hockey or especially baseball. Maybe college baseball would be more compelling to fans if some of the players had already been drafted and are affiliated with their favorite MLB team. Sort of like fantasy sports, where you have a vested interest in various players on different teams.
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Post by jaffinator on Jul 17, 2024 20:26:05 GMT -5
Maybe the NHL model works better? HS kids get drafted and can either go to college or to one of several independent leagues, with the NHL club retaining their rights. NHL teams maintain only one minor league affiliate, the equivalent of baseball AAA, so they can easily shuttle players up and down. In such a scenario, everything from AA down would be various independent leagues with mixed, non-affiliated teams, while colleges absorb a percentage of drafted kids. Would MLB FOs really be comfortable farming out all pre-AAA coaching and development to independent or colleges coaches/training staffs, the way hockey does? It would certainly save them money. One reason college football and basketball are so popular and profitable is that the level of play is much closer to the pros than in hockey or especially baseball. Maybe college baseball would be more compelling to fans if some of the players had already been drafted and are affiliated with their favorite MLB team. Sort of like fantasy sports, where you have a vested interest in various players on different teams. I don't think the vested interest thing is enough to carry support for lower levels of baseball. In the hockey comparison, already drafted players aren't the reason that some lower level clubs are successful. It's almost entirely due to local interest - the Red Deer Rebels or whoever don't survive because fans of NHL teams tune in to watch their favorite prospects. They survive because the city cares (i.e. local ticket sales and the like - also sometimes they do fail - double also there are a series of agreements with the NHL that do help support the other leagues).
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jul 19, 2024 11:22:06 GMT -5
I have a thought, or perhaps a question on Conrad.
It seems the plan is to develop him as a SS/P and the assumption is at some point he focuses on one side of the ball.
If he develops on both sides, it seems to me that they won't do that, it feels logical if he can both hit and pitch that they might keep him as a two way player.
IF that were to happen, would they keep him at the defensive position he plays best? or would they move him somewhere that might be reduce his chances of being injured?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 19, 2024 13:02:25 GMT -5
I guess I'll answer with my own question - what is this mythical position that reduces his chances of being injured?
Being a bit less glib, the answer is clearly, "we'll see," right? There are a lot of ways his development could go. Like if you mean will they make him a DH when he's not pitching, like Ohtani, that makes sense there because Ohtani he's both one of the top handful of hitters and pitchers in the world. But maybe we're talking a guy whose value comes from his defense at short or center or something in which case it's a different story.
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Post by crossedsabres8 on Jul 19, 2024 13:09:29 GMT -5
When was the last time the Sox drafted someone as a two-way guy?
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Post by julyanmorley on Jul 19, 2024 13:19:49 GMT -5
Casey Kelly but it was obvious at the time that they didn't actually want him to hit
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jul 19, 2024 13:24:57 GMT -5
I guess I'll answer with my own question - what is this mythical position that reduces his chances of being injured? Being a bit less glib, the answer is clearly, "we'll see," right? There are a lot of ways his development could go. Like if you mean will they make him a DH when he's not pitching, like Ohtani, that makes sense there because Ohtani he's both one of the top handful of hitters and pitchers in the world. But maybe we're talking a guy whose value comes from his defense at short or center or something in which case it's a different story. I mean in theory second basemen should get hurt less often than shortstops because they don't have to throw as hard, right? Obviously I don't think that is the case in practice, but just answering in mythical terms.
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Post by keninten on Jul 19, 2024 13:41:19 GMT -5
The 2nd baseman also does not see the runner sliding towards him on a play at 2nd. The SS has the play in front of him.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 19, 2024 13:43:32 GMT -5
When was the last time the Sox drafted someone as a two-way guy? Trey Ball!
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,497
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Post by nomar on Jul 19, 2024 13:47:27 GMT -5
When was the last time the Sox drafted someone as a two-way guy? Trey Ball! Indiana Ohtani
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 19, 2024 14:32:35 GMT -5
The only one I can think of is Kelly but as noted, they clearly were just placating him until he realized his future was on the mound (in their eyes). The way his development plan was set up sure seemed designed to make him see that - he spent the first half of the year pitching, blew thru Low-A and got to High-A. Then they said OK, now go to the complex and have a second spring training and play in the GCL, then sent him to Low-A and the AFL, where he got his clock cleaned. Unsurprisingly, he focused on pitching after that.
Here, my guess is they'll let him do both at once. The six-man rotation should make that easy enough. But he'll probably pick one within a couple years.
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Post by cotuitfan on Jul 19, 2024 15:09:58 GMT -5
Good old Frankie Rodriguez comes to mind (obv not the last)
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jul 19, 2024 19:01:22 GMT -5
I don’t know why I assume 1b would decrease occurrence of Injury (that’s the position I had in my mind when I asked the question, knowing that scouts had said Ohtani could be a plus defender in the OF). I assume because in my mind they did that with Ohtani. Not sure why I thought that, because it was actually LF/RF and literally for a grand total of 8 1/3 innings. So yeah, I guess I can’t trust the old brain memory like I used too.
I suppose the that’s something to research, but I’d think the only real effect position would have would be workload. I’d be willing to bet any relationship is small, perhaps insignificantly so.
If I could re-ask the question I’d replace 1b with DH. If I was a betting man, I’d also bet on him playing one side of the ball by the time he reaches the majors (under the assumption he does).
We should be very excited if he turns into a MLB player on just one side of the ball, but this is dreaming season, and I do wonder what that may look like. If he can prove to add significant value in the field and on the mound.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 19, 2024 19:12:06 GMT -5
The only one I can think of is Kelly but as noted, they clearly were just placating him until he realized his future was on the mound (in their eyes). The way his development plan was set up sure seemed designed to make him see that - he spent the first half of the year pitching, blew thru Low-A and got to High-A. Then they said OK, now go to the complex and have a second spring training and play in the GCL, then sent him to Low-A and the AFL, where he got his clock cleaned. Unsurprisingly, he focused on pitching after that. Here, my guess is they'll let him do both at once. The six-man rotation should make that easy enough. But he'll probably pick one within a couple years. While it wasnt simultaneous, Ron Mahay came up to the Sox as a LH outfielder in 1995. He later came back to the Red Sox a few years later, if not sooner, as a LH relief pitcher and actually had a decent career being a LOOGY Fans of a certain age might recall that after Tony C was beaned he seriously considered coming back as a pitcher, but it never happened.
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Post by nonothing on Jul 20, 2024 1:09:15 GMT -5
The only one I can think of is Kelly but as noted, they clearly were just placating him until he realized his future was on the mound (in their eyes). The way his development plan was set up sure seemed designed to make him see that - he spent the first half of the year pitching, blew thru Low-A and got to High-A. Then they said OK, now go to the complex and have a second spring training and play in the GCL, then sent him to Low-A and the AFL, where he got his clock cleaned. Unsurprisingly, he focused on pitching after that. Here, my guess is they'll let him do both at once. The six-man rotation should make that easy enough. But he'll probably pick one within a couple years. While it wasnt simultaneous, Ron Mahay came up to the Sox as a LH outfielder in 1995. He later came back to the Red Sox a few years later, if not sooner, as a LH relief pitcher and actually had a decent career being a LOOGY Fans of a certain age might recall that after Tony C was beaned he seriously considered coming back as a pitcher, but it never happened. Wakefield was a hitter who became a P (though he was then in PIT), but he was a Red Sox great, so a mention.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 21, 2024 12:50:29 GMT -5
I don’t know why I assume 1b would decrease occurrence of Injury (that’s the position I had in my mind when I asked the question, knowing that scouts had said Ohtani could be a plus defender in the OF). I assume because in my mind they did that with Ohtani. Not sure why I thought that, because it was actually LF/RF and literally for a grand total of 8 1/3 innings. So yeah, I guess I can’t trust the old brain memory like I used too. I suppose the that’s something to research, but I’d think the only real effect position would have would be workload. I’d be willing to bet any relationship is small, perhaps insignificantly so. If I could re-ask the question I’d replace 1b with DH. If I was a betting man, I’d also bet on him playing one side of the ball by the time he reaches the majors (under the assumption he does). We should be very excited if he turns into a MLB player on just one side of the ball, but this is dreaming season, and I do wonder what that may look like. If he can prove to add significant value in the field and on the mound. Yeah I mean, I think that only comes into play if we're talking about an Ohtani-level unicorn. If he's Ohtani-level on only one side of the ball, he's going to focus on that and drop the other, and if he's just OK at both... he probably still picks one I guess? I hear what you're saying, I just think the chances the situation arises are so slim, it's that deal with it when we get there thing. It's like when catchers get moved off catcher because the bat is so good, but we're talking guys like Wil Myers and Bryce Harper at that point. If I were a betting man, I'd bet he picks a lane by 2026.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 21, 2024 14:46:36 GMT -5
I want to see a guy in MLB who’s like a borderline starting caliber position player and also a very good reliever. Like if Jonathan India could also pitch the 7th inning.
There’s probably a number of reasons this doesn’t happen but I think it would be fun
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