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Predicting The 2025 Opening Day Roster
asm18
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Post by asm18 on Sept 20, 2024 9:56:49 GMT -5
Juan Soto ain’t gonna happen (although it would be nice just to have a meeting!). But I would have to imagine his defense in LF could exceed this:
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Sept 20, 2024 10:06:14 GMT -5
I just can't get behind paying two DHs $70-80M a season for the next 8-9 years. If we hadn't signed Devers (which now looks more and more like a mistake), then it's not as big a deal. But it feels like it trades any kind of long term sustainability for short term gain. There is no reason to think Juan Soto is not capable of playing left field at Fenway park for the foreseeable future. You can worry about sustainability while I enjoy the best hitter the Red Sox will have had since Ted Williams play every day. Soto is the big prize this off season. Signing him would have similar if not greater transformational impact to the Sox signing Manny Ramirez. Sox have the coin, hopefully they have courage for such an investment.
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Post by bettsonmookie on Sept 20, 2024 10:07:56 GMT -5
The off-season to do list is extremely straight forward, which gives Breslow no excuse to not execute. It’s time to earn the paycheck.
Objective #1: ID and acquire 1 front line starter
It can be through FA or through trade. He has an embarrassment of riches to deploy in either case.
They don’t need another Pivetta. They need to replace Sale.
How? Who? That will be the question of the offseason. 2 would be nice. But they NEED 1 bonafide, needle-moving starting pitcher.
My personal choice would be to explore the trade market via Abreu/Hamilton rather than go the Burnes/Fried route.
Objective #2: Reinforce back of bullpen
What do you do with Kenley/Martin? Are you confident in Hendriks?
The bullpen depth situation looks healthy but they will need veteran anchors for the leverage spots.
It’s a similar situation to the rotation. Whether RHP/LHP, they need elite talent to put the collective over the top.
Tanner Scott + re-sign Martin for 1 year would be my personal choice.
Anything else would be “nice” but not necessarily “mandatory” for an offseason checklist.
1-year C as bridge insurance to Teel? Ehh, would be nice. Not losing sleep over it.
A RHH slugging bat? Based on Breslow’s comments on TON, I don’t know what to expect here either. Adding Grissom/Story back to the MIF helps address that need to a degree.
After 1 & 2, they could theoretically call it a day:
1. Duran - LF (L) 2. Grissom - 2B (R) 3. Devers - 3B (L) 4. Story - SS (R) 5. Casas - 1B (L) 6. Wong - C (R) 7. Yoshida - DH (L) 8. Abreu (Anthony) - RF (L) 9. Rafaela - CF (R)
-Bridge C/Teel (later) -Refsnyder - OF -Gonzalez - UT -Hamilton (Sogard) - UT
SP:
1. Jared Jones (acquired) 2. Houck 3. Bello 4. Crawford 5. Giolito 6. Whitlock 7. Fitts 8. Priester 9. Dobbins
Closer: Tanner Scott (signed) SU: Hendriks SU: Martin (re-signed) SU: Slaten Long relief: Criswell
RHP Depth: Kelly, Guerrero, Weissert, Fulmer LHP Depth: Penrod, Booser, Murphy, Bernardino
All questions circle back to objectives 1 & 2. Quality over quantity. I can’t wait to see who they pick.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 20, 2024 10:10:13 GMT -5
I just can't get behind paying two DHs $70-80M a season for the next 8-9 years. If we hadn't signed Devers (which now looks more and more like a mistake), then it's not as big a deal. But it feels like it trades any kind of long term sustainability for short term gain. There is no reason to think Juan Soto is not capable of playing left field at Fenway park for the foreseeable future. You can worry about sustainability while I enjoy the best hitter the Red Sox will have had since Ted Williams play every day. It would be interesting to see what dominoes would fall if they signed Soto. He has to be in LF (or DH), but then is there room for both Duran and Rafaela? And is that counting on Anthony to be able to handle RF? Which, maybe he can, but it's not guaranteed. Abreu would seem to be squeezed but he'd be the only "natural" right fielder on the team. Unless they moved Rafaela to RF. And do you roll with a team where Rafaela, Story, Wong, Campbell, and Grissom are the only potential lefties? A Duran trade would start to make a lot of sense, but then all of a sudden the Red Sox would be back to the slow lumbering slugger paradigm of the '90s and '00s.
I'm not saying you pass on Juan Soto because the roster fit is awkward; but there would undoubtedly be some knock-on effects.
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 20, 2024 10:19:47 GMT -5
I wouldn't be so sure about Soto going to a team already in luxury tax penalty hell. That has been a significant deterrent thus far. I'm kinda expecting some random team on the rise to make a statement signing, like the Tigers.
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asm18
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Post by asm18 on Sept 20, 2024 10:21:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying you pass on Juan Soto because the roster fit is awkward; but there would undoubtedly be some knock-on effects. [/div][/quote] I’d like to imagine it would be something like: 1) 500 mil for Soto 2) The Big 4 + whatever Ben Cherington wants for Paul Skenes 3) Liam Hendriks pilots a duck boat home to Australia after the parade in October 2025
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Post by chaimtime on Sept 20, 2024 10:23:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't be so sure about Soto going to a team already in luxury tax penalty hell. That has been a significant deterrent thus far. I'm kinda expecting some random team on the rise to make a statement signing, like the Tigers. All I’m saying is I know of one big market team with a solid-but-not-quite-there core, a healthy tax situation, and a fanbase aching for a statement signing, plus the pipeline of elite talent on the farm that can help mitigate the risk of such a large contract
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Post by texs31 on Sept 20, 2024 10:38:28 GMT -5
We really need to stop with the trade our (projected)4th/5th best OF and our (projected) 4th best middle infielder to get a TOR starter. I love Abreu. He does NOT get you that guy.
If the plan is to trade for a starter (and it probably is), it's going to sting. Just like the Sale trade did (at the time).
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Post by bettsonmookie on Sept 20, 2024 11:08:23 GMT -5
We really need to stop with the trade our (projected)4th/5th best OF and our (projected) 4th best middle infielder to get a TOR starter. I love Abreu. He does NOT get you that guy. If the plan is to trade for a starter (and it probably is), it's going to sting. Just like the Sale trade did (at the time). Why not, exactly? Abreu's WAR is T75 in all of MLB. Hamilton's WAR is T90. If you evenly distribute talent across the league, that would make each of them somebody's 3rd best position player. Those figures are also as rookies with a combined 10 years of control left between them. But because of the organizational depth chart, nobody in the industry is willing to value them for what they can provide? I don't buy that logic at all. That tandem could go a long way in filling out a small/mid-market teams lineup for the rest of the decade.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 20, 2024 11:22:20 GMT -5
We really need to stop with the trade our (projected)4th/5th best OF and our (projected) 4th best middle infielder to get a TOR starter. I love Abreu. He does NOT get you that guy. If the plan is to trade for a starter (and it probably is), it's going to sting. Just like the Sale trade did (at the time). Okay but you're just skipping past abreu being a 3 WAR guy for cheap. Also Hamilton looks like a 2 WAR MIF for cheap. It's gotta be the right trade partner and it probably would take an extra piece or two but it's not that far fetched for me to think they could pry a guy like crochet for that type of package.
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Post by bettsonmookie on Sept 20, 2024 11:28:51 GMT -5
We really need to stop with the trade our (projected)4th/5th best OF and our (projected) 4th best middle infielder to get a TOR starter. I love Abreu. He does NOT get you that guy. If the plan is to trade for a starter (and it probably is), it's going to sting. Just like the Sale trade did (at the time). Okay but you're just skipping past abreu being a 3 WAR guy for cheap. Also Hamilton looks like a 2 WAR MIF for cheap. It's gotta be the right trade partner and it probably would take an extra piece or two but it's not that far fetched for me to think they could pry a guy like crochet for that type of package. I'd imagine the Arias/Montgomery/Cespedes/Bleis group are more plausible for Miami/ChiSox (Crochet, Alcantara, etc.) given the timing of their rebuilds, but Wilyer/Hamilton would both look great in Pittsburgh or Seattle, who both have arms to spare.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 20, 2024 11:31:36 GMT -5
Okay but you're just skipping past abreu being a 3 WAR guy for cheap. Also Hamilton looks like a 2 WAR MIF for cheap. It's gotta be the right trade partner and it probably would take an extra piece or two but it's not that far fetched for me to think they could pry a guy like crochet for that type of package. I'd imagine the Arias/Montgomery/Cespedes/Bleis group are more plausible for Miami/ChiSox (Crochet, Alcantara, etc.) given the timing of their rebuilds, but Wilyer/Hamilton would both look great in Pittsburgh or Seattle, who both have arms to spare. I don't really buy into the argument the white Sox would only want far away lotto ticket prospects which is what those guys are. Yea sure they're not a good team right now but they have some decent prospects getting close enough and I still think they'd have interest in two guys they can control for cheap the next 5 years.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 20, 2024 11:45:09 GMT -5
I think they should sign a top of the rotation starter and stop worrying about the spending efficiency if the quality is really good for the next few years.
I think they can also upgrade on Crawford who still has value and package Abreu and lesser tiered prospects to increase a 2nd spot in the rotation.
I'm fine with letting Kenley walk but they need to replace Martin (preferably with Martin) and go out and get a few more guys, spend money - use Kenley's dollars plus additional dollars to get proven relievers who are still damn good. Sure they can chance a Penrod and others but it cant be an entire pen of throw stuff against the wall guys. Way too much of that the past few years. It really hasn't worked that well for them and even though I like Whitlock you cant rely on his health.
Keep the big 4 and Montgomery and Arias of possible. Everybody else is negotiable in trades if need be.
I'd love Soto and I'd go with a Soto/Duran/Anthony outfield with Rafaela in reserve if not dealt, although they could DH Soto and pay off a chunk of Yoshida's deal, too.
Or they could simply DH Devers and eventually have Grissom at 3b with Campbell at 2b with Story a possibilty for 3b when Mayer is ready.
But frankly I think Soto remains in pinstripes. I suspect the Yankees will suddenly and shockingly find the money to keep him and they wont go into bankruptcy. If not the Yankees, then the Mets will pounce.
I'd sign Soto - I mean this guy might whack 700 plus HRs when all is said and done, but I think that's almost as much a fantasy as signing Ohtani was.
Bottom line is they need to be willing to spend money to go over the luxury tax limit to upgrade the rotation - personally I'd sign Burnes or Fried and I'd trade for Crochet or maybe a Marlins pitcher if they can make a deal that preserves their top 5 prospects which might be doable.
Honestly while I think the piecescare there this dream about to bust out young ace is the great white whale that's being chased. I wouldn't count on it nor risk those impactful prospects. Improve the pitching? Locate the right guys and spend the money.
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Post by chaimtime on Sept 20, 2024 11:47:55 GMT -5
We really need to stop with the trade our (projected)4th/5th best OF and our (projected) 4th best middle infielder to get a TOR starter. I love Abreu. He does NOT get you that guy. If the plan is to trade for a starter (and it probably is), it's going to sting. Just like the Sale trade did (at the time). Okay but you're just skipping past abreu being a 3 WAR guy for cheap. Also Hamilton looks like a 2 WAR MIF for cheap. It's gotta be the right trade partner and it probably would take an extra piece or two but it's not that far fetched for me to think they could pry a guy like crochet for that type of package. Yeah calling Abreu our fourth or fifth outfielder when he’s third on the team in fWAR and has been on a 4+ WAR/600 PAs pace since being called up is a little strange to me. It’s gonna take quite a bit in addition to him to get a TOTR-level pitcher but there are almost certainly a handful of teams out there that would value him highly. The platoon splits will keep him from being a true star, but players with his pop who also add significant value in the field and on the basepaths aren’t easy to find.
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Post by abrinker on Sept 20, 2024 11:49:45 GMT -5
Re: Starting Pitching
I don’t see the FO going after a TOR starter in the offseason. On paper that makes a ton of sense, but in the context of long-term roster building, and since we’re not going to adopt the spend-like-drunken-sailor approach of the Mets, Dodgers, and Yankees, spending $30M/year on a 30-something pitching into eternity is not the move. I also don’t see a TOR starter available on the trade market. (Crochet, perhaps, has that potential, but he’s a ticking timebomb, and the price CWS is likely to demand wouldn’t be worth it, IMO.)
I do think we could use another starter, but I’m thinking we’ll be fishing in the market for Seth-Lugo-like options. Most of the improvement in our rotation will have to come in the form of YOY improvements in the current staff. They’re still pretty young, for the most part, so expecting YOY gains should be reasonable. The foursome of Houck, Bello, and Crawford put fWAR of 3.8, 1.9, 1.6 respectively (bWAR was a litttle more bullish on Kutter at 2.6). Can we coax out another 2.5 wins this way? That's most of the way toward replicating what Burnes, Flaherty and Fried provided this season. And it's not just gains in pitcher performance. We really need to leverage better defense as part of that solution. Defense this year continued to be in the bottom third. Assuming Story is able to play a full season at short, that should be a big boost that costs us nothing. Keeping an OF of Abreu, Rafaela and Duran should ensure strong defense on the grass. Elephant in the room here is catcher. I think one of the biggest investments we can make is finding a quality defensive catcher would provide a force multiplier effect on the staff. Wong's atrocious framing and blocking combine to make him the worst defensive backstop in the league.
On the trade front, teams like SEA could be good trade partners. Some folks seem to hate on SEA pitchers, but if you’re valuing them as more MOR than TOR types, I don’t see why we couldn’t find an acceptable option there, given their need is our strength. In the end, however, over the last two offseasons, how many starting pitchers were swapped in trades? 2—Burnes and Glasnow! It just doesn’t happen very much, so I’m thinking this route isn’t in the cards.
As for potential acquisitions, no thanks on the coming-off-injury types (Bieber, Buehler). We already have one of those (Giolito) and our track record isn’t good there. Stop getting seduced by the siren’s song of an erstwhile ace who likely won’t ever return to that form. We also really guys who can provide consistent innings. Who’s next year’s Lugo or Lopez or Flaherty? Guys like Severino, Manaea, or even old friend Wacha (who continues to defy reason) should be gettable for more reasonable AAV and terms. Or we could just offer Pivetta a QO. If he takes it, he’ll be that guy. If not, you go after someone of his ilk and bank the draft pick. A move along these lines is probably the play. I know that’s not sexy, but it’s not indefensible. Just have to trust in the new pitching program to leverage gains of in-place arms.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Sept 20, 2024 11:50:27 GMT -5
Okay but you're just skipping past abreu being a 3 WAR guy for cheap. Also Hamilton looks like a 2 WAR MIF for cheap. It's gotta be the right trade partner and it probably would take an extra piece or two but it's not that far fetched for me to think they could pry a guy like crochet for that type of package. I'd imagine the Arias/Montgomery/Cespedes/Bleis group are more plausible for Miami/ChiSox (Crochet, Alcantara, etc.) given the timing of their rebuilds, but Wilyer/Hamilton would both look great in Pittsburgh or Seattle, who both have arms to spare. No disrespect for Abreu and Hamiton at all as I like them both allot. But one looks likely to be a platoon outfielder and the other would leave me disappointed if he were to be our starting 2b or SS in 2025. If Breslow can turn them in to a TOR arm, he is brilliant. Frankly, if that is possible, Bloom was brilliant !!
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Post by texs31 on Sept 20, 2024 11:57:14 GMT -5
We really need to stop with the trade our (projected)4th/5th best OF and our (projected) 4th best middle infielder to get a TOR starter. I love Abreu. He does NOT get you that guy. If the plan is to trade for a starter (and it probably is), it's going to sting. Just like the Sale trade did (at the time). Okay but you're just skipping past abreu being a 3 WAR guy for cheap. Also Hamilton looks like a 2 WAR MIF for cheap. It's gotta be the right trade partner and it probably would take an extra piece or two but it's not that far fetched for me to think they could pry a guy like crochet for that type of package. Definitely not skipping that. But is 3 WAR what he is? Or is he 3 likely to become more? I'm not sure the former headlines a deal like this.
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Post by chaimtime on Sept 20, 2024 12:06:43 GMT -5
Okay but you're just skipping past abreu being a 3 WAR guy for cheap. Also Hamilton looks like a 2 WAR MIF for cheap. It's gotta be the right trade partner and it probably would take an extra piece or two but it's not that far fetched for me to think they could pry a guy like crochet for that type of package. Definitely not skipping that. But is 3 WAR what he is? Or is he 3 likely to become more? I'm not sure the former headlines a deal like this. I think Abreu could be a meaty piece of a trade package for one of the Seattle pitchers, but if you’re trying to avoid using Duran or the big 4 in that package, you’re probably looking at something like Abreu, Crawford, Bleis, and Cespedes or Sandlin or someone like that. Maybe they’re really high on someone like Paez or Romero or the password, maybe they demand Arias, who knows. But it’s gonna take a lot. Either way, you aren’t getting a top-end starter without giving up a package that gives you a good chance of losing the trade on a WAR-for-WAR basis.
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Post by texs31 on Sept 20, 2024 12:14:07 GMT -5
The other piece in this is whether they target someone who isn't at the level yet but they think CAN be that guy once in the lab.
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Post by bettsonmookie on Sept 20, 2024 12:27:42 GMT -5
The other piece in this is whether they target someone who isn't at the level yet but they think CAN be that guy once in the lab. This is why Breslow is here in the first place and in time, we will see if he is capable of doing it. There is nothing more expensive than today's high-end arms, and today's best arms are often not tomorrow's best. I think they need proven anchors for the pen and rotation for '25, but would not mind seeing moves like Yorke-Priester a few more times. They can afford that risk and need that upside.
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Post by keninten on Sept 20, 2024 12:49:04 GMT -5
Soto has an agent named Boras. Don`t think he`s in the cards. The stankees will have to give him an Ohtani type deal to stay near the CBT.
I don`t see the big need for an ace. It would be nice but he`s only in 30 games a year for 200 IP max. Would rather have depth in the rotation.
I`ve never been big on spending on the BP but my mind is changing. The need is 4 top arms and a bunch of up and down guys to fill the bottom. Maybe a couple spaghetti guys. Martin is getting $8.75 this year. How much he gets in FA can`t be that high. So he could be back at a lower cost but would count him as spaghetti for next year.
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Post by greenmonster on Sept 20, 2024 12:54:08 GMT -5
I'm curious what everyone thinks about Jesus Luzardo has a trade target. He has been hurt (not arm related) for a good chunk of 2024. His 2023 numbers look pretty solid (1.21 whip, 10.5 K/9). He is still only 26yo and entering his second year of arbitration. If the medical forecast is positive he might be a reasonable target that wouldn't cost multiple top level prospects. Might also be nice to introduce a lefty into the rotation. He is a Boras client so that would likely be a negative with respect to any kind of extension
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Post by bettsonmookie on Sept 20, 2024 13:03:32 GMT -5
I'm curious what everyone thinks about Jesus Luzardo has a trade target. He has been hurt (not arm related) for a good chunk of 2024. His 2023 numbers look pretty solid (1.21 whip, 10.5 K/9). He is still only 26yo and entering his second year of arbitration. If the medical forecast is positive he might be a reasonable target that wouldn't cost multiple top level prospects. Might also be nice to introduce a lefty into the rotation. He is a Boras client so that would likely be a negative with respect to any kind of extension All depends on the medicals. I remember insane mock trades getting tossed around with Luzardo about a year ago. “Consensus” was Duran, and more, would be needed to acquire him. Miami held for a king’s ransom, didn’t get it, and their asset has collapsed in value. The White Sox would be wise to not let the same thing happen to them with Crochet.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Sept 20, 2024 14:49:29 GMT -5
My guess/hope for opening day:
C C. Kelly (or equivalent if there is one - hopefully to Janson) as free agent signing !B Casas 2B Grissom SS Story 3B Devers LF O'Neil CF Duran RF Abreu C/1b Wong IF Hamilton OF Refsnyder IF Gonzalez Util Rafaela
2B would be a competition in spring training between Grissom and Campbell but if it's close, Grissom would get the nod to start due to his several years of very good hitting stats vs 1 year for Campbell. The hope for improvement over this year's team is a healthy Casas, a healthy Grissom, a heathy Story (I am not expecting much from him as a hitter but a little bit better that what Rafaela and the other ss they played this year game us plus better defense. Campbell at AAA playing 2B and outfield. Yoshida and Valdez gone for whatever they can get. To get Kelly as a free agent, you would have to assure him that when Teel is ready, Wong would be shifted to !B/3B and Gonzalez would be the odd man out. Anthony would start the year in AAA playing at least some RF. If Anthony proves he is ready, Abreu gets traded and Anthony takes his place. Meyer at AAA until he shows proves he is ready in which case he replaces Story with Story now getting more time at 2B. DH is used to keep people fresh or if O'Neil's defense doesn't rebound maybe he spends alot of time there with Duran in left and Rafael in center.
Starters 1. FA- Fried, hopefully 2. Houck 3. Bello 4. Pivetta 5. FA2 Giolito starts the year on the DL, does a rehab in AAA before becoming available to replace whichever of the 5 are hurt or ineffective. Criswell, Fits, Priester and Dobbins also at AAA and available. Perhaps I am crazy, but I still think Bello could be a lot better than he has shown so far. And I would feel better about calling on the depth at AAA than I did this year.
Bullpen
Cl Henricks 8th FA or trade 7th Slaten LH Penrod LH Bernadino or Boozer LR Fulmer LR Whitlock LR Crawford
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Post by abrinker on Sept 20, 2024 15:01:38 GMT -5
On the outfield front, this approach seems pretty straightforward. We have two centerfielders. Sure, Duran can play LF, and for that matter, I’m sure Rafaela could man either of the corners, as well. But where does value get optimized?
Defensively, Rafaela is the best option for CF. That’s unquestionable; that’s where his value is maximized. Defensive metrics show that Duran, while not quite as strong a defender in CF, but still plus, is also maximized in CF. Duran was a 6-8 WAR player this year, depending on which measure you use (let’s split the difference and say 7). It would be reasonable to assume his value would only have increased if he didn’t spend 40% of his time in LF. If he played LF exclusively, I surmise his WAR would have been lower, let’s say 6. Now I’m not assuming Duran will put up a line like he did this season consistently, but for the sake of argument, let’s say he can be counted on to be a 4-5 WAR player in LF for the next several seasons. But if he was deployed in CF consistently, that would bump him to 5-6. Some have suggested CR would be a 3 WAR player if he played CF exclusively. Let’s assume that’s true. Without gains in offense, however, that may be his ceiling. (Though young, given his approach and how hard-wired he seems, I’m not sure meaningful improvement at the dish can be counted on, and ultimately, that’s the judgment call.)
Then we have Abreu, who’s a solid 3 WAR player as largely a platoon bat with above-average RF defense. One can reason that Abreu hasn’t maxed out, and that a 4 WAR profile is realistic. Paired with a guy like Refsnyder, who’s not nearly as strong in the field, but who added 1.6 WAR this year, you can create a 5-6 WAR RF tandem.
Add that up and we have an OF WAR of 12.5 (Duran in LF 4.5, RF tandem 5, Rafaela in CF 3). But, if we moved Duran to CF (5.5), and replaced Rafaela in OF with O’Neill or someone of his ilk (3), that both maximizes OF value (13.5), while making for a much tougher lineup. Sure there’s a difference in OF defense, but the overall effect would be positive. And the lineup would be scarier, which could have synergistic effects on other batters (sort of a raise-all-boats effect).
The last thing we should do, IMO, is relegate Rafaela to super-utility. His IF defense isn’t very good, and why when we use him as a defensive replacement for Duran in CF—the only position CR should play? If Duran had one year of control left, I’d say keep CR, but with four years before FA, and with Anthony looming on the horizon, I just don’t see a long-term fit for him. If we can find a team that values Ceddanne enough to part with pitching or a solid catcher with some control (I think C may be our biggest area of need, and a huge lever to boost pitching performance), or the right prospects, that’s the play, IMO. Unfortunately, I’m worried the contract extension takes away from his value.
There are a lot of folks on this board who are emotionally connected to Ceddanne, so talk of trading him is an assault on their heartstrings. But objective reasoning, IMO, make this problem a fairly easy one to solve, it just doesn’t serve to fondle our feelings to cast aside someone in whom we’ve invested a lot emotional capital.
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