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9/27-9/29 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by cheers on Sept 27, 2024 20:36:54 GMT -5
Friday night and the magnet are just too much I hate magnets almost as much as I love robot umpires.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 27, 2024 20:53:34 GMT -5
Pivetta pitching for $$, Guerrero & Grissom playing for opening day next year.
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Post by sxfan on Sept 27, 2024 21:00:12 GMT -5
What's the lowest number the Sox will take in the draft after today's loss? Still 17?
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Post by bluechip on Sept 27, 2024 21:01:51 GMT -5
Another three-hit game for Vaughn Grissom. Is he 7 for 18 since coming back up? It's a small sample, but it's been great to see what he's done the last two games, him and Campbell will be a huge competition heading into camp. Rafaela might be the one who loses that competition. I can totally see Duran in center with Grissom and Campbell at left and second (could see either at 2b/lf).
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Post by greenmonster on Sept 27, 2024 21:20:21 GMT -5
Just heard on the post game that Kenley has left the building. Cleared his locker and left the team. I know he is on the IL and not expected to resign but that is kinda a douche move. I wonder how long before we start hearing about any internal disfunction?
edit: team disfunction/conflict not specifically with Kenley
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 27, 2024 21:24:29 GMT -5
What's the lowest number the Sox will take in the draft after today's loss? Still 17? 9, 12, 13, 14 are the possibilities.
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Post by bluechip on Sept 27, 2024 21:27:08 GMT -5
Just heard on the post game that Kenley has left the building. Cleared his locker and left the team. I know he is on the IL and not expected to resign but that is kinda a douche move. I wonder how long before we start hearing about any internal disfunction? edit: team disfunction/conflict not specifically with Kenley Edit: He didn’t travel to Toronto, right? So he left while they were on the road?
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Post by finaliz3d on Sept 27, 2024 21:32:09 GMT -5
What's the lowest number the Sox will take in the draft after today's loss? Still 17? 9, 12, 13, 14 are the possibilities. Yep, Cardinals need to win at least one game for 14 to be ruled out. 9 would be ruled out if the Red Sox win any games or if the Giants lose all three. Any ties with San Francisco/Tampa Bay will result in the Red Sox getting the better position, any ties with St. Louis would result in St. Louis getting the better position. Cardinals are currently up 1-0.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 27, 2024 21:33:27 GMT -5
Thanks for everything Nick please reject the QO and good luck in ur future endeavors I think if he gets a QO he accepts... he's a 4-5 starter and you can't pay 20m for that. I wouldn't be crushed if he accepted it. It's not an insane amount of money for a solid SP in today's MLB. The 2013 World Champs paid Ryan Dempster $13M to be strictly a No. 5. That was 12 years ago (by the time '25 comes around) and Nick P. on a normal year is better than Dempster was and offers a ton more potential upside. Paying Pivetta the QO price shouldn't hinder the '25 team if the FO is willing to spend past the first LTT. And truthfully, I'm not looking for the Next Great Red Sox team to show up until '26. I mean we've had about five bridge years now. What's one more? Theo Epstein: There is no such thing as a bad one-year contract.
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Post by bluechip on Sept 27, 2024 22:00:43 GMT -5
I think if he gets a QO he accepts... he's a 4-5 starter and you can't pay 20m for that. I wouldn't be crushed if he accepted it. It's not an insane amount of money for a solid SP in today's MLB. The 2013 World Champs paid Ryan Dempster $13M to be strictly a No. 5. That was 12 years ago (by the time '25 comes around) and Nick P. on a normal year is better than Dempster was and offers a ton more potential upside. Paying Pivetta the QO price shouldn't hinder the '25 team if the FO is willing to spend past the first LTT. And truthfully, I'm not looking for the Next Great Red Sox team to show up until '26. I mean we've had about five bridge years now. What's one more? Theo Epstein: There is no such thing as a bad one-year contract. They weren’t acquiring him to be the fifth starter though. He overall had a sold 2012 (though faded down the stretch after being flipped from the cubs) and had been fairly solid for most of his recent career. He wasn’t given a real postseason role and they went out and acquired Jake Peavy (for Montas and and Jose Iglesias) to be the fourth post season starter as they wanted more than Dubront and Dempster could offer. I would argue that the contract actually was not great since while he filled innings, he did not give the Red Sox what they ultimately hoped/expected to get.
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Post by sxfan on Sept 27, 2024 22:13:28 GMT -5
9, 12, 13, 14 are the possibilities. Yep, Cardinals need to win at least one game for 14 to be ruled out. 9 would be ruled out if the Red Sox win any games or if the Giants lose all three. Any ties with San Francisco/Tampa Bay will result in the Red Sox getting the better position, any ties with St. Louis would result in St. Louis getting the better position. Cardinals are currently up 1-0. Who holds the tiebreaker for the Giants and Red Sox? Giants up now. If they win 2/3 they tie the Sox if the Sox win a game. The 12th and 13th pick seem like 90th percentile outcomes right now. The Giants are the team to watch the next 2 days.
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Post by finaliz3d on Sept 27, 2024 22:25:52 GMT -5
I think if he gets a QO he accepts... he's a 4-5 starter and you can't pay 20m for that. I wouldn't be crushed if he accepted it. It's not an insane amount of money for a solid SP in today's MLB. The 2013 World Champs paid Ryan Dempster $13M to be strictly a No. 5. That was 12 years ago (by the time '25 comes around) and Nick P. on a normal year is better than Dempster was and offers a ton more potential upside. Paying Pivetta the QO price shouldn't hinder the '25 team if the FO is willing to spend past the first LTT. And truthfully, I'm not looking for the Next Great Red Sox team to show up until '26. I mean we've had about five bridge years now. What's one more? Theo Epstein: There is no such thing as a bad one-year contract. I'll try to be nice, but... First, Dempster was not paid to be the #5 starter. He was paid to be the #3 starter but had a meh season and ended up as the #5 starter while Lackey returned to form after having an ERA of 6 in 2012, and Doubront being marginally better than Dempster. Second, he was coming off of a 4 bWAR season, that's why they paid him, Pivetta has never had a season above 3 WAR, Dempster had 4, including 2012. Pivetta has never had an ERA under 4 as a starter, Dempster has done it 5 times... Pivetta is fine, he's a useful pitcher, he's not a 20 million pitcher. If you want to offer him a contract that's fine, but I'm not giving him a QO.
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Post by finaliz3d on Sept 27, 2024 22:26:22 GMT -5
Yep, Cardinals need to win at least one game for 14 to be ruled out. 9 would be ruled out if the Red Sox win any games or if the Giants lose all three. Any ties with San Francisco/Tampa Bay will result in the Red Sox getting the better position, any ties with St. Louis would result in St. Louis getting the better position. Cardinals are currently up 1-0. Who holds the tiebreaker for the Giants and Red Sox? Giants up now. If they win 2/3 they tie the Sox if the Sox win a game. The 12th and 13th pick seem like 90th percentile outcomes right now. The Giants are the team to watch the next 2 days. As I said in the post above - perhaps not as clearly as I could have - the Red Sox have the tiebreaker over San Francisco, to finish above the Giants we just need to lose one more game than them over this last series. Red Sox have the tiebreaker over everybody except for St. Louis was the point I was trying to get across.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Sept 28, 2024 5:48:36 GMT -5
Just heard on the post game that Kenley has left the building. Cleared his locker and left the team. I know he is on the IL and not expected to resign but that is kinda a douche move. I wonder how long before we start hearing about any internal disfunction? edit: team disfunction/conflict not specifically with Kenley Sure it is. I’m guessing that maybe he was chomping at the bit to get out of Boston once it came out that they didn’t want him anymore in the offseason. Probably not a fun place for him to be. At the same time, he signed a contract and it’s a business…so I can see both sides. He’s probably also a little pissed that the Sox didn’t really contend and had little interest in doing so while he was here.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 28, 2024 6:29:58 GMT -5
Just heard on the post game that Kenley has left the building. Cleared his locker and left the team. I know he is on the IL and not expected to resign but that is kinda a douche move. I wonder how long before we start hearing about any internal disfunction? edit: team disfunction/conflict not specifically with Kenley Sure it is. I’m guessing that maybe he was chomping at the bit to get out of Boston once it came out that they didn’t want him anymore in the offseason. Probably not a fun place for him to be. At the same time, he signed a contract and it’s a business…so I can see both sides. He’s probably also a little pissed that the Sox didn’t really contend and had little interest in doing so while he was here. Your last sentence is incorrect. They obviously wanted to compete. They just had little interest in trading real prospects who are valuable to the long term future of the team for short term wins and I don't blame them.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 28, 2024 7:21:53 GMT -5
Sure it is. I’m guessing that maybe he was chomping at the bit to get out of Boston once it came out that they didn’t want him anymore in the offseason. Probably not a fun place for him to be. At the same time, he signed a contract and it’s a business…so I can see both sides. He’s probably also a little pissed that the Sox didn’t really contend and had little interest in doing so while he was here. Your last sentence is incorrect. They obviously wanted to compete. They just had little interest in trading real prospects who are valuable to the long term future of the team for short term wins and I don't blame them. Kenley grew up baseball-wise in Dodger land where if the Dodgers needed something they went out and spent the money, luxury tax be damned most of the time. That wasnt the case in his stint in Boston. Ownership wants to compete but only if the price is very right. And the definition of competing is different. Trying to be toward the top seeded teams is different than trying to capture one of the last playoff spots or two. These teams were built to try to be 85 win teams instead of 90 to 95 win teams. Not saying that he expected the Sox to be exactly like the Dodgers, but more so than what they've been during his time there. So while I agree trading the future isn't the way to go I think he probably expected the Red Sox to be more than a passive team who waits for the farm core to develop (which is getting much closer but still hasn't quite yet arrived) and accepts mediocrity until then.
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Post by scottysmalls on Sept 28, 2024 7:22:56 GMT -5
In a vacuum no issue with Pivetta on a QO deal, in practice it leaves you with a full rotation for next season. I think it can work if you also package Crawford+ for some controlled guy better than Crawford, but I’m not sure if that trade exists (what team has a controlled guy better than Crawford that would also trade that guy for Crawford and a prospect).
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,961
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 28, 2024 10:48:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't be crushed if he accepted it. It's not an insane amount of money for a solid SP in today's MLB. The 2013 World Champs paid Ryan Dempster $13M to be strictly a No. 5. That was 12 years ago (by the time '25 comes around) and Nick P. on a normal year is better than Dempster was and offers a ton more potential upside. Paying Pivetta the QO price shouldn't hinder the '25 team if the FO is willing to spend past the first LTT. And truthfully, I'm not looking for the Next Great Red Sox team to show up until '26. I mean we've had about five bridge years now. What's one more? Theo Epstein: There is no such thing as a bad one-year contract. I'll try to be nice, but... First, Dempster was not paid to be the #5 starter. He was paid to be the #3 starter but had a meh season and ended up as the #5 starter while Lackey returned to form after having an ERA of 6 in 2012, and Doubront being marginally better than Dempster. Second, he was coming off of a 4 bWAR season, that's why they paid him, Pivetta has never had a season above 3 WAR, Dempster had 4, including 2012. Pivetta has never had an ERA under 4 as a starter, Dempster has done it 5 times... Pivetta is fine, he's a useful pitcher, he's not a 20 million pitcher. If you want to offer him a contract that's fine, but I'm not giving him a QO. No need to try to be nice. This is the Internet. Get ready for a bloody battle in the Pivetta War.🙂 Actually we're both wrong. I had forgotten how good Dempster was good in his time with the 2012 Cubbies, though a lot of his success was driven by a .243 BABIP. It's worth noting that he was a disappointment after his trade to Texas. In August and September with the Strangers, he was .2 WAR with a 5.09 ERA and 1.435 WHIP (In fairness, his FIP with the Strangers was a full run lower than his ERA.) Lackey did not have an ERA of 6 in 2012. You might be referring to 2011 when he was well over 6 with a WAR of -1.9. But he was gutting it out with an arm held together by Scotch tape. (I've always thought Red Sox fans' treatment of Lackey that year was terrible, right up there with the booing Mark Bellhorn took in 2005. But that's a discussion for another day.) Lackey's return to being an excellent P in 2013 was not a surprise, given his prior record, the success many guys have coming back from TJ and the timing of his surgery. He had it at the end of 2011, giving him what at the time was considered the optimal recovery time. I don't think anyone thought at the start of 2013 that Dempster was a No. 3 on a good team. My recollection is that we all knew the Red Sox needed - and expected - bouncebacks from Lester, Lackey and Buchholz, along with full recoveries from Papi and Ellsbury in order to compete. Back to Pivetta, he has been a solid SP during his time here. He's been above average in run suppression each year except for 2022. He eats innings. At worst, he could be a multi-inning weapon out of the BP. His acceptance of a QO would not cripple the 2025 team. His likely rejection of it would net us a pick and more money to spread around in the 2025 draft. And then you're free of his $20M salary, which would help with you add veteran talent to a potentially specutacular young core for 2026.
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Post by bluechip on Sept 28, 2024 10:52:44 GMT -5
In a vacuum no issue with Pivetta on a QO deal, in practice it leaves you with a full rotation for next season. I think it can work if you also package Crawford+ for some controlled guy better than Crawford, but I’m not sure if that trade exists (what team has a controlled guy better than Crawford that would also trade that guy for Crawford and a prospect). Crawford is the type of guy who is part of a package acquiring an expiring or expensive star player. If Skubal were to be traded, for example, Crawford AND prospects would be heading the other way.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 28, 2024 11:02:46 GMT -5
Pivetta pitching for $$, Guerrero & Grissom playing for opening day next year. I had the strong impression that Pivetta was pitching for more than $$ in that game.
It struck me that the announcers were talking about Pivetta being gone next season as a fait accompli. No mention of the QO at all, and again it's unclear to me as to whether that means the QO won't be offered, or it will be offered and is presumed to be rejected. More than with O'Neill, I would guess it is the former. In any case, they already have Houck, Bello, Crawford, and Giolito in the rotation next season; they pretty much need to let Pivetta go in order to make an upgrade.
Another clue from the Alex Speier conversation: it sounds like the Red Sox are not determined to go top-of-the-market for a pitcher in free agency; they'd rather make a play for the Lugo/Flaherty/Imanaga types they targeted last offseason - though with the goal of succeeding in actually signing one of them this time (an important step in the process!). I'm fine with that. Burnes, Snell, and Fried all have some yellowish flags at least.
It'll be interesting to see who they have in mind. At this point I have no idea who it'll be.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,961
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Post by TearsIn04 on Sept 28, 2024 11:03:23 GMT -5
Who holds the tiebreaker for the Giants and Red Sox? Giants up now. If they win 2/3 they tie the Sox if the Sox win a game. The 12th and 13th pick seem like 90th percentile outcomes right now. The Giants are the team to watch the next 2 days. As I said in the post above - perhaps not as clearly as I could have - the Red Sox have the tiebreaker over San Francisco, to finish above the Giants we just need to lose one more game than them over this last series. Red Sox have the tiebreaker over everybody except for St. Louis was the point I was trying to get across. So, a Red Sox loss and an SFG win today would put the Red Sox in the 9th spot going into tomorrow's last game. It's hard for me to root against our guys, but man, I have to tell you that 9th pick is tantalizing.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 28, 2024 11:12:53 GMT -5
In a vacuum no issue with Pivetta on a QO deal, in practice it leaves you with a full rotation for next season. I think it can work if you also package Crawford+ for some controlled guy better than Crawford, but I’m not sure if that trade exists (what team has a controlled guy better than Crawford that would also trade that guy for Crawford and a prospect). Crawford at first thought feels like the guy who would be the one to upgrade and it's possible he is but at the same time it feels like Crawford gets underrated around here. He's been a really solid SP the last two years making peanuts. You could potentially trade him in a deal for a #2 but Crawford is arguably a #3. IMO the need for an upgrade to the rotation isn't as big a need as gets thrown around. I think Houck, Bello, Crawford is already a good trio of SPs throw in Giolito as a decent option for a #5 with guys like Criswell, fitts, priester as depth options with upside. Go after more of a lugo, imanaga, Flaherty type in FA could be the right play, heck that could evenbe Pivetta. If they do go with that tier then the question becomes where else are they spending their money?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 28, 2024 11:14:09 GMT -5
Friday night and the magnet are just too much I hate magnets almost as much as I love robot umpires. Shaggy 2 Dope? Violent J? Is that you?
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Post by julyanmorley on Sept 28, 2024 11:56:52 GMT -5
Gasper at DH
Get this man a hit!
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 28, 2024 12:20:38 GMT -5
I hate magnets almost as much as I love robot umpires. Shaggy 2 Dope? Violent J? Is that you? This makes my head hurt. Edit: confused the real song with the parody.
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