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Red Sox Defense 2024-2025
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 2, 2024 11:59:45 GMT -5
Red Sox Ranks: OAA - 25th (-18) DRS - 5th (+49) UZR - 25th (-9.7) ERR - 29th (115) Innings - 1st (13,081.2)
DRS is actually quite fond of the Red Sox performance, but generally OAA is looked at as the most accurate statistic at measuring team/player defensive performance (other statcast measures such as FRV and RAA can be more useful at times), and the list of teams behind the Red Sox at 25th (Nationals, Marlins, Angels, White Sox, A's) is not flattering.
Innings are relevant as the Red Sox played ~146 more innings than the average team, so the counting stats above seem slightly less dramatic when accounting for the number of innings. UZR moves from 25th to 23rd, for example. However their errors, if playing a mean slate of innings, only reduce to 113.7 which is still 29th - so the adjustment doesn't change the story. (not relevant to the discussion, but the strain on the pitching/bullpen is unlikely to be as pronounced going forward, as the innings were likely heavily luck-dependent)
Largest Postives in OAA (position) - innings: Wilyer Abreu: +7 (RF) - 921.1 Jarren Duran: +7 (CF) - 810.1 Ceddanne Rafela: +5 (CF) - 631.1 Jarren Duran: +3 (LF) - 611 David Hamilton: +3 (2B) - 266.2 Trevor Story: +2 (SS) - 227.2
Largest Negatives in OAA: *Connor Wong: -10 (C) - 878.1 Enmanuez Valdez: -8 (2B) - 467.2 Ceddanne Rafaela: -7 (SS) - 647 Rafael Devers: -6 (3B) - 1138.1 Romy Gonzalez: -4 (3B) - 79 Connor Wong: -4 (1B) - 64.2 *Danny Jansen: -4 (C) - 218.2 David Hamilton: -3 (SS) - 433 Romy Gonzalez: -3 (2B) - 130.1 Rob Refsnyder: -2 (LF) - 297.2 Pablo Reyes: -2 (SS) - 13.2 Triston Casas: -2 (1B) - 512 innings Vaughn Grissom: -2 (2B) - 245 innings **in FRV as OAA doesn't track catching; FRV tracks runs rather than outs, but these numbers can be looked at as 1 for 1 within ~20% threshold
Below is an extremely simplistic way of improving the defense. Please note that it will be full of small sample size issues, so please take it with a very large grain of salt and rather that criticize please provide alternate opinion/solutions.
Overly Simplistic Fixes: +2: Reduce Wong's playing time in place of Teel as mid/late-season call-up. This assumes Teel can play a league-average defense at catcher as a rookie OR another player is brought in. +4: Replace Danny Jansen with Reese McGuire (+1); Jansen has been an average to above-average catcher throughout his career, so it's possible he just needed practice with the staff (or it's a pitching staff issue) while McGuire is an above-average defensive catcher (+10 FRV career). +4: Replace Valdez' innings at 2B with Vaughn Grissom; Grissom has not been a good defender but he's an upgrade over Valdez who, despite solid range, has been a butcher given his throwing and double-play turning issues. +4: Replace Romy's time at 2B with David Hamilton; Hamilton was the Red Sox best defensive 2B last season (Sogard was +0 in 99 innings) +4: Have a league-average defender as backup 3B; Romy struggled both by metrics and visually in his small sample there, hopefully one of the internal options (Hamilton, Rafaela, Grissom, etc.) can produce better results. +22: A near-full healthy season for Trevor Story; Story was pre-injured when he signed 3 years ago, so hopefully he is now healthy and avoids any freak injury. Rafaela wasn't the issue in 2024, he was just part of a full group at SS that struggled.
+22 overall (+40 improvement) would have ranked 6th in MLB in 2024. Due to injuries and small sample sizes not working out this isn't realistic, but it illustrates that there are internal options which would greatly improve the defense with Story remaining healthy immediately making this team average-to-better defensively.
Opinion for 2025: - Have Hamilton & Grissom split time at 2B (with Rafaela receiving some time as well) - Keep Valdez in the minors or trade (too many superior options to consider him - 40-man spot is likely better used elsewhere) - Look to move on from Romy (I appreciated what he did, but there are now better options) - Don't trade for a catcher with league-average bat mid-season (catching is not that easy) - Have McGuire split time with Wong until Teel is ready (competition will be added I'm sure) - Don't rush the rookies; young players often struggle defensively with errors and mental mistakes
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 2, 2024 12:02:53 GMT -5
Great stuff. Thank you for compiling all of this, a nice set of comparisons for the different estimators.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,840
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 2, 2024 12:25:31 GMT -5
Until just recently I had no idea Wong was that bad. I guess the improved batting average turned my head. There were already several things we needed to improve on and now I'm not sure that we don't need to place catching close to the top. Dang! Few positions are even close to the importance. There are several veterans available, and I have to place it high, below pitching, on my list for replacement.
Boy that Mookie trade was even worse than I thought. Lol
Story, if healthy, will help Devers. 2nd base should be better.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Oct 2, 2024 12:29:37 GMT -5
The OAA thing is really interesting to me. Since the beginning of 2021, the Red Sox are dead last in baseball in OAA by a mile:
If you split it by season, out of the 120 team-seasons since 2021, the 4 Red Sox season rank 83rd (2022), 94th (2024), 116th (2021) and 119th (2023).
By OAA the defense has been so bad for so long I almost wonder if they just don't believe in the metric, or have willingly made a decision to sacrifice defense. They have had so many opportunities to address this over the last 4 years and they just haven't. I realize there are a lot of things you can point to as bad luck - Story getting hurt, Rafaela adjusting to SS, you can pick something probably every year, but this is such a large sample that I feel like at some point those things would have evened out.
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Post by jdb on Oct 2, 2024 12:32:43 GMT -5
I wonder if the fix is as easy as Story at SS, Hamilton/Girssom platoon at 2B and move on from Wong. I feel it’s hard to say we plan on upgrading pitching but still have Wong go out and catch 100 games.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 2, 2024 12:39:26 GMT -5
Red Sox Ranks:OAA - 25th (-18) DRS - 5th (+49) UZR - 25th (-9.7) ERR - 29th (115) Innings - 1st (13,081.2) DRS is actually quite fond of the Red Sox performance, but generally OAA is looked at as the most accurate statistic at measuring team/player defensive performance (other statcast measures such as FRV and RAA can be more useful at times), and the list of teams behind the Red Sox at 25th (Nationals, Marlins, Angels, White Sox, A's) is not flattering. Innings are relevant as the Red Sox played ~146 more innings than the average team, so the counting stats above seem slightly less dramatic when accounting for the number of innings. UZR moves from 25th to 23rd, for example. However their errors, if playing a mean slate of innings, only reduce to 113.7 which is still 29th - so the adjustment doesn't change the story. (not relevant to the discussion, but the strain on the pitching/bullpen is unlikely to be as pronounced going forward, as the innings were likely heavily luck-dependent) Largest Postives in OAA (position) - innings:Wilyer Abreu: +7 (RF) - 921.1 Jarren Duran: +7 (CF) - 810.1 Ceddanne Rafela: +5 (CF) - 631.1Jarren Duran: +3 (LF) - 611 David Hamilton: +3 (2B) - 266.2 Trevor Story: +2 (SS) - 227.2 Largest Negatives in OAA:*Connor Wong: -10 (C) - 878.1 Enmanuez Valdez: -8 (2B) - 467.2 Ceddanne Rafaela: -7 (SS) - 647 Rafael Devers: -6 (3B) - 1138.1 Romy Gonzalez: -4 (3B) - 79 Connor Wong: -4 (1B) - 64.2 *Danny Jansen: -4 (C) - 218.2 David Hamilton: -3 (SS) - 433 Romy Gonzalez: -3 (2B) - 130.1 Rob Refsnyder: -2 (LF) - 297.2 Pablo Reyes: -2 (SS) - 13.2 Triston Casas: -2 (1B) - 512 innings Vaughn Grissom: -2 (2B) - 245 innings **in FRV as OAA doesn't track catching; FRV tracks runs rather than outs, but these numbers can be looked at as 1 for 1 within ~20% threshold Below is an extremely simplistic way of improving the defense. Please note that it will be full of small sample size issues, so please take it with a very large grain of salt and rather that criticize please provide alternate opinion/solutions. Overly Simplistic Fixes:+2: Reduce Wong's playing time in place of Teel as mid/late-season call-up. This assumes Teel can play a league-average defense at catcher as a rookie OR another player is brought in. +4: Replace Danny Jansen with Reese McGuire (+1); Jansen has been an average to above-average catcher throughout his career, so it's possible he just needed practice with the staff (or it's a pitching staff issue) while McGuire is an above-average defensive catcher (+10 FRV career). +4: Replace Valdez' innings at 2B with Vaughn Grissom; Grissom has not been a good defender but he's an upgrade over Valdez who, despite solid range, has been a butcher given his throwing and double-play turning issues. +4: Replace Romy's time at 2B with David Hamilton; Hamilton was the Red Sox best defensive 2B last season (Sogard was +0 in 99 innings) +4: Have a league-average defender as backup 3B; Romy struggled both by metrics and visually in his small sample there, hopefully one of the internal options (Hamilton, Rafaela, Grissom, etc.) can produce better results. +22: A near-full healthy season for Trevor Story; Story was pre-injured when he signed 3 years ago, so hopefully he is now healthy and avoids any freak injury. Rafaela wasn't the issue in 2024, he was just part of a full group at SS that struggled. +22 overall (+40 improvement) would have ranked 6th in MLB in 2024. Due to injuries and small sample sizes not working out this isn't realistic, but it illustrates that there are internal options which would greatly improve the defense with Story remaining healthy immediately making this team average-to-better defensively. Opinion for 2025:- Have Hamilton & Grissom split time at 2B (with Rafaela receiving some time as well) - Keep Valdez in the minors or trade (too many superior options to consider him - 40-man spot is likely better used elsewhere) - Look to move on from Romy (I appreciated what he did, but there are now better options) - Don't trade for a catcher with league-average bat mid-season (catching is not that easy) - Have McGuire split time with Wong until Teel is ready (competition will be added I'm sure) - Don't rush the rookies; young players often struggle defensively with errors and mental mistakes Interesting that on a rate basis, Duran actually outperformed CR in CF defense. I agree that CR's best defensive home is CF, and that he's a gold glover there, but are we over-estimating how much better he is there than Duran? I think so. I'd much rather put Duran in CF full time. That would leave CR as a super-utility guy for us, which is a poor utilization of his skills. Still think he'd be more valuable on another team as full-time CF; ergo, I think the best value play is to trade him. Feels like an incredibly straightforward conclusion to me, based on the data/facts, but what do I know?
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Post by abrinker on Oct 2, 2024 12:44:15 GMT -5
Red Sox Ranks:OAA - 25th (-18) DRS - 5th (+49) UZR - 25th (-9.7) ERR - 29th (115) Innings - 1st (13,081.2) DRS is actually quite fond of the Red Sox performance, but generally OAA is looked at as the most accurate statistic at measuring team/player defensive performance (other statcast measures such as FRV and RAA can be more useful at times), and the list of teams behind the Red Sox at 25th (Nationals, Marlins, Angels, White Sox, A's) is not flattering. Innings are relevant as the Red Sox played ~146 more innings than the average team, so the counting stats above seem slightly less dramatic when accounting for the number of innings. UZR moves from 25th to 23rd, for example. However their errors, if playing a mean slate of innings, only reduce to 113.7 which is still 29th - so the adjustment doesn't change the story. (not relevant to the discussion, but the strain on the pitching/bullpen is unlikely to be as pronounced going forward, as the innings were likely heavily luck-dependent) Largest Postives in OAA (position) - innings:Wilyer Abreu: +7 (RF) - 921.1 Jarren Duran: +7 (CF) - 810.1 Ceddanne Rafela: +5 (CF) - 631.1 Jarren Duran: +3 (LF) - 611 David Hamilton: +3 (2B) - 266.2 Trevor Story: +2 (SS) - 227.2 Largest Negatives in OAA:*Connor Wong: -10 (C) - 878.1 Enmanuez Valdez: -8 (2B) - 467.2 Ceddanne Rafaela: -7 (SS) - 647 Rafael Devers: -6 (3B) - 1138.1 Romy Gonzalez: -4 (3B) - 79 Connor Wong: -4 (1B) - 64.2 *Danny Jansen: -4 (C) - 218.2 David Hamilton: -3 (SS) - 433 Romy Gonzalez: -3 (2B) - 130.1 Rob Refsnyder: -2 (LF) - 297.2 Pablo Reyes: -2 (SS) - 13.2 Triston Casas: -2 (1B) - 512 innings Vaughn Grissom: -2 (2B) - 245 innings **in FRV as OAA doesn't track catching; FRV tracks runs rather than outs, but these numbers can be looked at as 1 for 1 within ~20% threshold Below is an extremely simplistic way of improving the defense. Please note that it will be full of small sample size issues, so please take it with a very large grain of salt and rather that criticize please provide alternate opinion/solutions. Overly Simplistic Fixes:+2: Reduce Wong's playing time in place of Teel as mid/late-season call-up. This assumes Teel can play a league-average defense at catcher as a rookie OR another player is brought in. +4: Replace Danny Jansen with Reese McGuire (+1); Jansen has been an average to above-average catcher throughout his career, so it's possible he just needed practice with the staff (or it's a pitching staff issue) while McGuire is an above-average defensive catcher (+10 FRV career). +4: Replace Valdez' innings at 2B with Vaughn Grissom; Grissom has not been a good defender but he's an upgrade over Valdez who, despite solid range, has been a butcher given his throwing and double-play turning issues. +4: Replace Romy's time at 2B with David Hamilton; Hamilton was the Red Sox best defensive 2B last season (Sogard was +0 in 99 innings) +4: Have a league-average defender as backup 3B; Romy struggled both by metrics and visually in his small sample there, hopefully one of the internal options (Hamilton, Rafaela, Grissom, etc.) can produce better results. +22: A near-full healthy season for Trevor Story; Story was pre-injured when he signed 3 years ago, so hopefully he is now healthy and avoids any freak injury. Rafaela wasn't the issue in 2024, he was just part of a full group at SS that struggled. +22 overall (+40 improvement) would have ranked 6th in MLB in 2024. Due to injuries and small sample sizes not working out this isn't realistic, but it illustrates that there are internal options which would greatly improve the defense with Story remaining healthy immediately making this team average-to-better defensively. Opinion for 2025:- Have Hamilton & Grissom split time at 2B (with Rafaela receiving some time as well) - Keep Valdez in the minors or trade (too many superior options to consider him - 40-man spot is likely better used elsewhere) - Look to move on from Romy (I appreciated what he did, but there are now better options) - Don't trade for a catcher with league-average bat mid-season (catching is not that easy) - Have McGuire split time with Wong until Teel is ready (competition will be added I'm sure)
- Don't rush the rookies; young players often struggle defensively with errors and mental mistakes McGuire is now a free agent. Not saying they can't resign him, just that's he's no longer on the club. Not sure he'll want to re-up if he suspects it'll be for only a partial season (to keep the seat warm until Teel comes up).
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Post by incandenza on Oct 2, 2024 13:10:07 GMT -5
By OAA the defense has been so bad for so long I almost wonder if they just don't believe in the metric, or have willingly made a decision to sacrifice defense. They have had so many opportunities to address this over the last 4 years and they just haven't. I realize there are a lot of things you can point to as bad luck - Story getting hurt, Rafaela adjusting to SS, you can pick something probably every year, but this is such a large sample that I feel like at some point those things would have evened out. I think they care very much about it, which is why they signed Story in the first place. If he had been healthy this all would have gone completely differently. But he wasn't, and their solutions - Kiké in 2023, Rafaela in 2024 - were reasonable on the face of it but turned out to be disastrous. Though they have unwisely played some guys out of position in the pulling-the-full-size-sheet-across-a-queen-size-bed years when they had almost zero young talent (e.g., Arroyo in RF and Franchy at 1B).
Another big component of this is Devers (-29 OAA over the four years), but it's reasonable enough to tolerate his glove for the sake of his bat.
I wonder if the fix is as easy as Story at SS, Hamilton/Girssom platoon at 2B and move on from Wong. I feel itâs hard to say we plan on upgrading pitching but still have Wong go out and catch 100 games. Yeah, I think this is actually a really easy problem to solve. They already have excellent OF defense. Just have Story be healthy and primarily play Hamilton at 2B, and reduce (if not eliminate through trade) Wong's playing time. Even if Story gets hurt again, I'm more confident that Rafaela could fill in competently at SS; he really improved there in the last month or two. Even Hamilton can be okay there - most of his negative OAA/DRS there, as I recall, came in like the first week when he probably had the jitters.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Oct 2, 2024 13:55:28 GMT -5
By OAA the defense has been so bad for so long I almost wonder if they just don't believe in the metric, or have willingly made a decision to sacrifice defense. They have had so many opportunities to address this over the last 4 years and they just haven't. I realize there are a lot of things you can point to as bad luck - Story getting hurt, Rafaela adjusting to SS, you can pick something probably every year, but this is such a large sample that I feel like at some point those things would have evened out. I think they care very much about it, which is why they signed Story in the first place. If he had been healthy this all would have gone completely differently. But he wasn't, and their solutions - Kiké in 2023, Rafaela in 2024 - were reasonable on the face of it but turned out to be disastrous. Though they have unwisely played some guys out of position in the pulling-the-full-size-sheet-across-a-queen-size-bed years when they had almost zero young talent (e.g., Arroyo in RF and Franchy at 1B).
Another big component of this is Devers (-29 OAA over the four years), but it's reasonable enough to tolerate his glove for the sake of his bat.
I wonder if the fix is as easy as Story at SS, Hamilton/Girssom platoon at 2B and move on from Wong. I feel itâs hard to say we plan on upgrading pitching but still have Wong go out and catch 100 games. Yeah, I think this is actually a really easy problem to solve. They already have excellent OF defense. Just have Story be healthy and primarily play Hamilton at 2B, and reduce (if not eliminate through trade) Wong's playing time. Even if Story gets hurt again, I'm more confident that Rafaela could fill in competently at SS; he really improved there in the last month or two. Even Hamilton can be okay there - most of his negative OAA/DRS there, as I recall, came in like the first week when he probably had the jitters. Not sure what is more concerning, the Red Sox FO not caring about OAA, or that they do care about it and yet have still been the worst in baseball by a country mile.
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tedf
Rookie
Posts: 163
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Post by tedf on Oct 2, 2024 14:22:23 GMT -5
Great analysis! Rafaela improved defensively once he settled in, and was roughly average at SS from July onward. But Story is better, of course.
How many starts do we anticipate from our front three OF? Rafaela could easily pick up 60-80 starts off the bench in the OF, with some more on the infield. Not sure his offense demands more exposure than that at this time?
Wong has had two years to break in. If he hasn't figured out the defensive side of the game yet, or even hinted at progress, then it is likely time to move on. Consider signing Jansen, and trading or releasing Wong when Teel is ready. Jansen might not look great by these numbers, but he is a solid platoon partner for Teel and has historically been decent defensively.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Oct 2, 2024 15:05:53 GMT -5
Great analysis! Rafaela improved defensively once he settled in, and was roughly average at SS from July onward. But Story is better, of course. How many starts do we anticipate from our front three OF? Rafaela could easily pick up 60-80 starts off the bench in the OF, with some more on the infield. Not sure his offense demands more exposure than that at this time? Wong has had two years to break in. If he hasn't figured out the defensive side of the game yet, or even hinted at progress, then it is likely time to move on. Consider signing Jansen, and trading or releasing Wong when Teel is ready. Jansen might not look great by these numbers, but he is a solid platoon partner for Teel and has historically been decent defensively. Do you have data that shows Rafaela improved defensively throughout the year? I can’t figure out how to break the splits out on Fangraphs or Savant.
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Post by abrinker on Oct 2, 2024 15:26:01 GMT -5
In the event we trade Yoshida, I kind of like the idea of picking up Carlos Santana on a one-year deal. He's always been a strong 1B defender, including this season, where Statcast ranks him at the top, so he could be a great backup for Casas, as well as a solid DH who boasts a good K rate (though not quite at Masa's level). He sports pretty heavy splits, with a .934 OPS vLHP, but even against RHP he comes in near average offensively. Last two seasons he's signed one year deals in the $6-7M range, so not sure we couldn't get him on another 1-year deal at $6M. Last season showed just how vulnerable we are if Casas goes down, and I don't think there are any great options on the farm. We could always sign a MILB FA and stash him on AAA roster, but that's just begging for history to repeat itself. Having a full-time DH with no defensive value in Yoshida is really limiting.
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Post by finaliz3d on Oct 2, 2024 15:54:54 GMT -5
If we're fixing the defense, honestly I don't think there's much to fix. One of our biggest problems were that Story got injured. If Story is healthy you don't worry about SS, I think I might be more careful and consider signing a guy who can just be all glove no bat to a one year minor league deal to call up in emergency potentially? Nick Ahmed for example, .600 OPS but great glove at short if everything goes wrong. Or if you don't trade Mayer like I've previously suggested, you can probably call him up if that happens instead.
After that, second base was a hole, but Hamilton's above average defensively there, Campbell should be decent, Grissom I'm not sure about, but still, I think you should overall be at least average collectively. Also Enmanuel Valdez... I'll try not to be too overly negative about the guy... but if it's me he's not getting called up unless we're desperate... and honestly even then I'd probably rather give Sogard/Meidroth a shot if two of those three guys above are injured.
Casas should be fine as a first baseman, Dever's issues should be mitigated with a good shortstop, outfield is excellent in pretty much any configuration so I'm fine there.
The biggest problem for the Red Sox (at least if we ignore starting pitching/bullpen help) is the catcher defense. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Wong needs to play less catcher, and we need to get a defensive first catcher. Jansen can block well, but his framing isn't that great and he doesn't have much of an arm, so I'd rather not bring him back. My ideal choice is Carson Kelly on a two-year deal, he's the starter this year and a great backup next year for Teel. Vazquez is another option that you could just trade for, maybe get them to eat half of his 10m remaining? This either means trading Wong or trying him as a utility player to get his bat in the lineup against lefties.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Oct 2, 2024 18:08:47 GMT -5
Couple of notes based on the feedback: - Red Sox had the 15th youngest team in baseball in 2024. Only 2 teams younger than the Red Sox (Guardians and Tigers) made the playoffs. - Wong was 63rd of 66 per game (-0.14) at blocking balls in the dirt, 52nd out of 58 (-7) in framing runs and 31st of 88 in pop-time (1.95). Jansen was similarly poor in framing (-3) and worse at throwing out runners (1.99) but was arguably the best catcher last year at blocking balls in the dirt (+0.2/game). - The Red Sox -18 in OAA is was not good BUT they were -50 in OAA in 2023, so the improvement was tremendous despite the young players and continued loss of Story; if they make a similar improvement in 2025, they would move be up to 9th best (+14) based on 2024 finals. - UZR (using UZR as it's the best metric at seperating by team into groups) rated the Red Sox 10th best in outfield arm and 5th best in range; they struggled at double-play rate (26th) and error rate (30th). So they have young players with good range and arms, but struggle at skills which typically improve at players gain experience; Jarren Duran is a great example of how a player with great range (he was 2nd in OF range by OAA in 2023) can suddenly become a good/great defender with practice - there's reason for optimism with this group.
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Post by bg23 on Oct 2, 2024 18:10:51 GMT -5
Is there any evidence that Devers' defense improves with a better shortstop next to him, or is the assumption that Story will simply offset Devers' poor defense? From what I’ve seen, there’s no data to support the former. Looking at Statcast data, there’s no clear correlation between a third baseman's Outs Above Average and the shortstop’s OAA. For example, Devers’ best defensive season (+18, sadly looking more and more like an anomaly each year) came with a collective -9 OAA at shortstop, the same as his worst season (-9). Is there even a strong theoretical link? How often is Story going to make a play on a ball Devers can't get to in the 6 hole? Devers struggled mightily going to his left this year but that has not been a career long issue. He has actually struggled more often going to his right or in during his career. While Story will undoubtedly improve the overall infield defense, I doubt he will suddenly turn Devers into a good or even average third baseman. History suggests Devers will struggle at third regardless of who's beside him.
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Post by finaliz3d on Oct 2, 2024 18:48:55 GMT -5
Is there any evidence that Devers' defense improves with a better shortstop next to him, or is the assumption that Story will simply offset Devers' poor defense? From what I’ve seen, there’s no data to support the former. Looking at Statcast data, there’s no clear correlation between a third baseman's Outs Above Average and the shortstop’s OAA. For example, Devers’ best defensive season (+18, sadly looking more and more like an anomaly each year) came with a collective -9 OAA at shortstop, the same as his worst season (-9). Is there even a strong theoretical link? How often is Story going to make a play on a ball Devers can't get to in the 6 hole? Devers struggled mightily going to his left this year but that has not been a career long issue. He has actually struggled more often going to his right or in during his career. While Story will undoubtedly improve the overall infield defense, I doubt he will suddenly turn Devers into a good or even average third baseman. History suggests Devers will struggle at third regardless of who's beside him. Sure, I should have thought to do this sooner when having a separate argument, but looking at Savant we can see what Devers defense looked like in August/September of 2023 when Story came back from injury and they played with eachother most days. I also got numbers from September for Devers in 2024. Admittedly, this is a three month sample overall because they haven't played much together with Story at short and Devers at third, but overall: Devers was 0 OAA in August/September last year, and in September this year Devers was a +1.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 2, 2024 18:51:03 GMT -5
Is there any evidence that Devers' defense improves with a better shortstop next to him, or is the assumption that Story will simply offset Devers' poor defense? From what I’ve seen, there’s no data to support the former. Looking at Statcast data, there’s no clear correlation between a third baseman's Outs Above Average and the shortstop’s OAA. For example, Devers’ best defensive season (+18, sadly looking more and more like an anomaly each year) came with a collective -9 OAA at shortstop, the same as his worst season (-9). Is there even a strong theoretical link? How often is Story going to make a play on a ball Devers can't get to in the 6 hole? Devers struggled mightily going to his left this year but that has not been a career long issue. He has actually struggled more often going to his right or in during his career. While Story will undoubtedly improve the overall infield defense, I doubt he will suddenly turn Devers into a good or even average third baseman. History suggests Devers will struggle at third regardless of who's beside him. Sure, I should have thought to do this sooner when having a separate argument, but looking at Savant we can see what Devers defense looked like in August/September of 2023 when Story came back from injury and they played with eachother most days. I also got numbers from September for Devers in 2024. Admittedly, this is a three month sample overall because they haven't played much together with Story at short and Devers at third, but overall: Devers was 0 OAA in August/September last year, and in September this year Devers was a +1. Devers really does seem palpably better with Story at short.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Oct 2, 2024 18:53:17 GMT -5
On a perfectly constructed roster there would be no negative defensive players such as devers but he's not yet completely unplayable at the position. A lot of their defensive deficiencies from 2024 can be buttoned up with Story logging more time at SS, Hamilton logging more time at 2nd and Rafaela more time in the OF. It's my assumption that Devers will be the 3rd baseman next year and probably the next several unless his shoulders are absolutely shredded and cannot recover from surgery at which point they have more problems with devers than his defense.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Oct 2, 2024 19:11:20 GMT -5
Red Sox Ranks:OAA - 25th (-18) DRS - 5th (+49) UZR - 25th (-9.7) ERR - 29th (115) Innings - 1st (13,081.2) DRS is actually quite fond of the Red Sox performance, but generally OAA is looked at as the most accurate statistic at measuring team/player defensive performance (other statcast measures such as FRV and RAA can be more useful at times), and the list of teams behind the Red Sox at 25th (Nationals, Marlins, Angels, White Sox, A's) is not flattering. Innings are relevant as the Red Sox played ~146 more innings than the average team, so the counting stats above seem slightly less dramatic when accounting for the number of innings. UZR moves from 25th to 23rd, for example. However their errors, if playing a mean slate of innings, only reduce to 113.7 which is still 29th - so the adjustment doesn't change the story. (not relevant to the discussion, but the strain on the pitching/bullpen is unlikely to be as pronounced going forward, as the innings were likely heavily luck-dependent) Largest Postives in OAA (position) - innings:Wilyer Abreu: +7 (RF) - 921.1 Jarren Duran: +7 (CF) - 810.1 Ceddanne Rafela: +5 (CF) - 631.1Jarren Duran: +3 (LF) - 611 David Hamilton: +3 (2B) - 266.2 Trevor Story: +2 (SS) - 227.2 Largest Negatives in OAA:*Connor Wong: -10 (C) - 878.1 Enmanuez Valdez: -8 (2B) - 467.2 Ceddanne Rafaela: -7 (SS) - 647 Rafael Devers: -6 (3B) - 1138.1 Romy Gonzalez: -4 (3B) - 79 Connor Wong: -4 (1B) - 64.2 *Danny Jansen: -4 (C) - 218.2 David Hamilton: -3 (SS) - 433 Romy Gonzalez: -3 (2B) - 130.1 Rob Refsnyder: -2 (LF) - 297.2 Pablo Reyes: -2 (SS) - 13.2 Triston Casas: -2 (1B) - 512 innings Vaughn Grissom: -2 (2B) - 245 innings **in FRV as OAA doesn't track catching; FRV tracks runs rather than outs, but these numbers can be looked at as 1 for 1 within ~20% threshold Below is an extremely simplistic way of improving the defense. Please note that it will be full of small sample size issues, so please take it with a very large grain of salt and rather that criticize please provide alternate opinion/solutions. Overly Simplistic Fixes:+2: Reduce Wong's playing time in place of Teel as mid/late-season call-up. This assumes Teel can play a league-average defense at catcher as a rookie OR another player is brought in. +4: Replace Danny Jansen with Reese McGuire (+1); Jansen has been an average to above-average catcher throughout his career, so it's possible he just needed practice with the staff (or it's a pitching staff issue) while McGuire is an above-average defensive catcher (+10 FRV career). +4: Replace Valdez' innings at 2B with Vaughn Grissom; Grissom has not been a good defender but he's an upgrade over Valdez who, despite solid range, has been a butcher given his throwing and double-play turning issues. +4: Replace Romy's time at 2B with David Hamilton; Hamilton was the Red Sox best defensive 2B last season (Sogard was +0 in 99 innings) +4: Have a league-average defender as backup 3B; Romy struggled both by metrics and visually in his small sample there, hopefully one of the internal options (Hamilton, Rafaela, Grissom, etc.) can produce better results. +22: A near-full healthy season for Trevor Story; Story was pre-injured when he signed 3 years ago, so hopefully he is now healthy and avoids any freak injury. Rafaela wasn't the issue in 2024, he was just part of a full group at SS that struggled. +22 overall (+40 improvement) would have ranked 6th in MLB in 2024. Due to injuries and small sample sizes not working out this isn't realistic, but it illustrates that there are internal options which would greatly improve the defense with Story remaining healthy immediately making this team average-to-better defensively. Opinion for 2025:- Have Hamilton & Grissom split time at 2B (with Rafaela receiving some time as well) - Keep Valdez in the minors or trade (too many superior options to consider him - 40-man spot is likely better used elsewhere) - Look to move on from Romy (I appreciated what he did, but there are now better options) - Don't trade for a catcher with league-average bat mid-season (catching is not that easy) - Have McGuire split time with Wong until Teel is ready (competition will be added I'm sure) - Don't rush the rookies; young players often struggle defensively with errors and mental mistakes Interesting that on a rate basis, Duran actually outperformed CR in CF defense. I agree that CR's best defensive home is CF, and that he's a gold glover there, but are we over-estimating how much better he is there than Duran? I think so. I'd much rather put Duran in CF full time. That would leave CR as a super-utility guy for us, which is a poor utilization of his skills. Still think he'd be more valuable on another team as full-time CF; ergo, I think the best value play is to trade him. Feels like an incredibly straightforward conclusion to me, based on the data/facts, but what do I know? 100% agree. Duran has a much better bat than Rafaela, and Duran in CF allows a much better bat at corner OF positions. There has to be an MLB team that needs and values Rafaela on defense enough to trade for him….upgrades for the bullpen incoming….
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Post by bg23 on Oct 2, 2024 19:11:51 GMT -5
Is there any evidence that Devers' defense improves with a better shortstop next to him, or is the assumption that Story will simply offset Devers' poor defense? From what I’ve seen, there’s no data to support the former. Looking at Statcast data, there’s no clear correlation between a third baseman's Outs Above Average and the shortstop’s OAA. For example, Devers’ best defensive season (+18, sadly looking more and more like an anomaly each year) came with a collective -9 OAA at shortstop, the same as his worst season (-9). Is there even a strong theoretical link? How often is Story going to make a play on a ball Devers can't get to in the 6 hole? Devers struggled mightily going to his left this year but that has not been a career long issue. He has actually struggled more often going to his right or in during his career. While Story will undoubtedly improve the overall infield defense, I doubt he will suddenly turn Devers into a good or even average third baseman. History suggests Devers will struggle at third regardless of who's beside him. Sure, I should have thought to do this sooner when having a separate argument, but looking at Savant we can see what Devers defense looked like in August/September of 2023 when Story came back from injury and they played with eachother most days. I also got numbers from September for Devers in 2024. Admittedly, this is a three month sample overall because they haven't played much together with Story at short and Devers at third, but overall: Devers was 0 OAA in August/September last year, and in September this year Devers was a +1. That certainly gives me some hope! Hopefully a healthy year for Story in 2025 and we can get a larger sample size that proves that further.
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