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nomar
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Posts: 11,119
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Post by nomar on Jun 5, 2013 12:28:13 GMT -5
I know this is under categories covered by other threads, but I want a clear reasoning for both sides.
Personally I look at Frazier and Meadows, and see Frazier as the clear pick for me.
Meadows would have a good bat for CF, but only slightly above average at a corner it would seem. His arm is bad, so he profiles for LF.
Frazier has plenty power for a corner OF spot, and a better arm to profile well in RF. He's also a righty, which makes him a better fit for Fenway. He's currently faster than Meadows as well.
I'm wondering why you think whichever player would be the better pick (if it came down to these two).
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Post by awall on Jun 5, 2013 15:33:00 GMT -5
I think Frazier has better physical tools and a better swing.
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Post by bluechip on Jun 5, 2013 17:11:30 GMT -5
Well Meadows has better instincts and a more advanced approach at the plate. Frazier has crazy bat speed, and plus arm and probably a little more speed. Two weeks ago I would have easily said Frazier. Now I much more torn.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,119
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Post by nomar on Jun 5, 2013 17:22:03 GMT -5
I trust our decision whatever it is, but Frazier on paper in what video we can see, looks better to me.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 5, 2013 17:28:22 GMT -5
I don't know who will be a better player but I think Frazier is a better fit to us. I love his Pedey-like makeup and crazy bat speed.
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Post by kingstephanos on Jun 5, 2013 18:21:01 GMT -5
I don't want to go into who has a "dirt dog" mentality, because I'd personally go for the highest ceiling talent.
But the fact that Frazier is all of 5'11" (some scouts say 5'10") and Meadows is 6'3" gives me pause at who will be better in 3 to 5 years - which is the most important part.
The list of 5'10"/5'11" slugging outfielders is few and far between so I would probably go with the prospect that has the higher future tools in Meadows:
1) higher future power as he matures and has the build to add on muscle under professional development.
2) will be focusing on baseball for the first time
3) currently has higher plate discipline
Bat speed is nice, but not many slugging MLB OF's are under 6'
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Post by rider on Jun 5, 2013 18:35:34 GMT -5
I'm more on Meadows than Frazier even though I'm at fan of both. Meadows has a nicer swing and better hit tool/ and a more advanced approach than Frazier. He also has more projectibility and better chance to stick at Center. Frazier is a little small and his aggressive plate approach as well as poor batting eye scares me a little.
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Post by jmei on Jun 5, 2013 18:42:03 GMT -5
I don't want to go into who has a "dirt dog" mentality, because I'd personally go for the highest ceiling talent. But the fact that Frazier is all of 5'11" (some scouts say 5'10") and Meadows is 6'3" gives me pause at who will be better in 3 to 5 years - which is the most important part. The list of 5'10"/5'11" slugging outfielders is few and far between so I would probably go with the prospect that has the higher future tools in Meadows: 1) higher future power as he matures and has the build to add on muscle under professional development. 2) will be focusing on baseball for the first time 3) currently has higher plate discipline Bat speed is nice, but not many slugging MLB OF's are under 6' Here's the thing: size only affects power insofar as it influences batspeed. Mechanically speaking, the only things that affect how far a ball goes when it is hit is how fast the bat is traveling when it hits it (and, to an extent, backspin). That's why skinny guys like Reddick or Harper can still put up crazy power numbers, while great-looking specimens like Ryan Sweeney end up with anemic power. Yes, Meadows is more projectable because he should be able to add more muscle to his frame and that increased strength, in theory, will give him better batspeed. But, Frazier has much better present batspeed because of crazy-strong and fast wrists. Indeed, Frazier already has MLB-caliber batspeed, and he doesn't need to improve it much to be a great power hitter (assuming he makes enough contact to leverage that power). It doesn't matter much to me that Frazier is short, because even if his batspeed doesn't improve another lick, he's already shown crazy raw power. |
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jimoh
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Posts: 4,002 
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Post by jimoh on Jun 5, 2013 19:24:32 GMT -5
I don't want to go into who has a "dirt dog" mentality, because I'd personally go for the highest ceiling talent. But the fact that Frazier is all of 5'11" (some scouts say 5'10") and Meadows is 6'3" gives me pause at who will be better in 3 to 5 years - which is the most important part. The list of 5'10"/5'11" slugging outfielders is few and far between ... Bat speed is nice, but not many slugging MLB OF's are under 6' Guys with 300 hrs (not all outfielders) 5 9 Mel Ott, MIguel Tejada, 5 10 Willie Mays, Ron Cey 5 11 Mickey Mantle, Carl Yastrzemski, Gary Sheffield, Rogers Hornsby 6 0 Manny Ramirez, Henry Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Sammie Sosa, Harmon KIllebrew, Jeff Bagwell, Gary Gaetti, Ron Santo, Ron Gant, Reggie Sanders, Chuck Klein, Duke Snider, Greg Vaughn, Dick Allen |
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Post by ramireja on Jun 5, 2013 20:10:40 GMT -5
I don't want to go into who has a "dirt dog" mentality, because I'd personally go for the highest ceiling talent. But the fact that Frazier is all of 5'11" (some scouts say 5'10") and Meadows is 6'3" gives me pause at who will be better in 3 to 5 years - which is the most important part. The list of 5'10"/5'11" slugging outfielders is few and far between so I would probably go with the prospect that has the higher future tools in Meadows: 1) higher future power as he matures and has the build to add on muscle under professional development. 2) will be focusing on baseball for the first time 3) currently has higher plate discipline Bat speed is nice, but not many slugging MLB OF's are under 6' Here's the thing: size only affects power insofar as it influences batspeed. Mechanically speaking, the only things that affect how far a ball goes when it is hit is how fast the bat is traveling when it hits it (and, to an extent, backspin). That's why skinny guys like Reddick or Harper can still put up crazy power numbers, while great-looking specimens like Ryan Sweeney end up with anemic power. Yes, Meadows is more projectable because he should be able to add more muscle to his frame and that increased strength, in theory, will give him better batspeed. But, Frazier has much better present batspeed because of crazy-strong and fast wrists. Indeed, Frazier already has MLB-caliber batspeed, and he doesn't need to improve it much to be a great power hitter (assuming he makes enough contact to leverage that power). It doesn't matter much to me that Frazier is short, because even if his batspeed doesn't improve another lick, he's already shown crazy raw power. This. The whole "Frazier is filled out without a projectable body" thing is killing me. That would only be a big deal if he wasn't currently showing any power, and thus we weren't able to at least project power in the future. People are forgetting the simple fact that he is already showing crazy raw power.....so yeah, don't worry if theres not a whole lot of room for projection...the kid's power is nuts already. Granted, yes they are high school stats, but he had 17 hrs to Meadow's 4 this year. |
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 5, 2013 20:21:39 GMT -5
Small corner outfielders with crazy bat speed and raw power? Joey bat and Sheff.
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Deleted
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Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2013 20:33:13 GMT -5
Frazier is looking like the best fit for Boston. If his power, arm, and speed are all better than Meadow's, I think that Frazier is the best option for the Red Sox is he is still available at number 7.
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Post by bjb406 on Jun 6, 2013 0:07:29 GMT -5
From everything I have read, the reasons I am hearing for Meadows over Frazier are that he is a couple inches taller, and that his swing is 'sweet looking'. The problem is that because his swing looks good doesn't mean its effective (see Anderson, Lars), and I have trouble seeing how anyone would care about height, unless you think he has too small a frame to hit for power, but everyone seems to agree that Frazier has more power potential. Kieth Law (whose opinion I place no value in with regard to anything) keeps insisting he is going to have to move to a corner, but from what I can tell that is mostly stereotyping based on his height (which if that were the case would make zero sense), and I would rather have the power hitting right fielder than the contact hitting center fielder anyway, especially with Bradley on the team.
The absolute worst draft strategy is to draft a guy because he looks the part. Frazier or bust.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 6, 2013 1:33:25 GMT -5
Guys with 300 hrs (not all outfielders) 5 9 Mel Ott, MIguel Tejada, 5 10 Willie Mays, Ron Cey 5 11 Mickey Mantle, Carl Yastrzemski, Gary Sheffield, Rogers Hornsby 6 0 Manny Ramirez, Henry Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Sammie Sosa, Harmon KIllebrew, Jeff Bagwell, Gary Gaetti, Ron Santo, Ron Gant, Reggie Sanders, Chuck Klein, Duke Snider, Greg Vaughn, Dick Allen Geez, I thought I was set on Meadows (of the 2) until this post. |
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Post by ocdss on Jun 6, 2013 5:46:38 GMT -5
The comps I keep thinking about are Brian Giles and Ryan Sweeney (although after looking up Giles, he's listed as taller than I thought he was on BRef). Frazier doesn't have Giles approach and Sweeney may be an extreme case of a player who no one can figure out why he doesn't hit for power, but I'd rather the Sox take the player with the freak MLB-ready batspeed now, and learn to hit professionally.
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Post by ramireja on Jun 6, 2013 6:52:23 GMT -5
Also, and this is a very minor point that should not affect our draft strategy in any way.....but if we sign one of Frazier or Meadows, they're likely going to play on a team with Manny Margot who is a natural CF. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we had to play one in the corner.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 6, 2013 6:56:53 GMT -5
Guys with 300 hrs (not all outfielders) 5 9 Mel Ott, MIguel Tejada, 5 10 Willie Mays, Ron Cey 5 11 Mickey Mantle, Carl Yastrzemski, Gary Sheffield, Rogers Hornsby 6 0 Manny Ramirez, Henry Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Sammie Sosa, Harmon KIllebrew, Jeff Bagwell, Gary Gaetti, Ron Santo, Ron Gant, Reggie Sanders, Chuck Klein, Duke Snider, Greg Vaughn, Dick Allen Geez, I thought I was set on Meadows (of the 2) until this post. Yup, jmoh with a good post. The guy I immediately thought of was Mantle. |
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Post by seadogs34 on Jun 6, 2013 8:55:09 GMT -5
Does anyone else have a feeling that the Marlins are going to ef this up for us and take Frazier? They may be cheap but they arent fools. Why take Shipley (Shipley seems to be a consensus pick for them) over a guy like Clint?
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Post by bluechip on Jun 6, 2013 10:01:45 GMT -5
Does anyone else have a feeling that the Marlins are going to ef this up for us and take Frazier? They may be cheap but they arent fools. Why take Shipley (Shipley seems to be a consensus pick for them) over a guy like Clint? Pitcher vs. Hitter, College vs. high school |
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Post by tjb21 on Jun 6, 2013 10:02:57 GMT -5
I've gone back and forth with these two guys, but I'll stick with Meadows... until we take Frazier and then I'll say we picked correctly.
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Post by seadogs34 on Jun 6, 2013 10:04:50 GMT -5
Does anyone else have a feeling that the Marlins are going to ef this up for us and take Frazier? They may be cheap but they arent fools. Why take Shipley (Shipley seems to be a consensus pick for them) over a guy like Clint? Pitcher vs. Hitter, College vs. high school Valid point. |
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Post by jrffam05 on Jun 6, 2013 10:50:56 GMT -5
With these two being at the high school level I would go with tools over polish. How many HS players who are not serious prospects go off to college and come out as a draftee in the top 5 rounds (some are signability reasons. You are saying Fraizer's plate approach or instincts in the field are weaker than Meadows, but those skills seem to be more associated with experience. I am not sure how much coaching these two guys had, but I am sure they will have top notch training from the Red Sox staff.
Fraizers question is will he develop a good plate approach, will he develop outfield instincts?
Meadows is will he be able to hit for power, will he be athletic enough to stay in CF?
It is more risky but I would go with the skills and work on the polish, instead of the other way around.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 15:28:31 GMT -5
From everything I have read, the reasons I am hearing for Meadows over Frazier are that he is a couple inches taller, and that his swing is 'sweet looking'. The problem is that because his swing looks good doesn't mean its effective (see Anderson, Lars), and I have trouble seeing how anyone would care about height, unless you think he has too small a frame to hit for power, but everyone seems to agree that Frazier has more power potential. Kieth Law (whose opinion I place no value in with regard to anything) keeps insisting he is going to have to move to a corner, but from what I can tell that is mostly stereotyping based on his height (which if that were the case would make zero sense), and I would rather have the power hitting right fielder than the contact hitting center fielder anyway, especially with Bradley on the team. The absolute worst draft strategy is to draft a guy because he looks the part. Frazier or bust. Why should the Sox take Meadows over Frazier because of height? Frazier has more hitting potential, power potential, more speed, and a better arm. Height means very little. Ryan Sweeney was a tall guy and NEVER hit home runs. Also, Andrew McCutchen, among the best in baseball, is only 5' 10", and he hit 31 home runs last year; and Frazier has been compared to him. In addition, many have said that Meadows is very raw, a tools guy, and does not have great baseball abilities at this time, and therefore will take a long time to develop. To me, guys like this are swing-at-everything guys that never make it because of an insane amount of strike-outs and an extremely low batting average. I would 100% go with Frazier. Although he is a few inches shorter, he has much better potential and a much lower-risk pick. I do not want Meadows because of his insanely high risk. In addition, Frazier “best bat speed I have ever seen from an amateur prospect” according to ESPN’s Keith Law. This translates to great hitting ability, plate discipline, and power. These are things that don't seem likely to come from Meadows at this time. I'm not saying that Meadows won't emerge as a good player, I would just much rather have Frazier, as he has better potential and is less of a risk. Why would height matter? I'm not sure what everyone else thinks, but Frazier definitely seems like the better pick to me. |
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Post by Guidas on Jun 6, 2013 15:37:34 GMT -5
All in for Frazier for the bat speed, approach and motor, as I've stated here earlier and at length.
The more I hear about Meadows being "more projectable" the more I think about Billy Beane, MoneyBall and "he looks good in the uniform.
As for height, I have Dustin Pedroia on line 1, Pedro Martinez on line 2, and Carl Yazstremski, Tony Gwynn, Kirby Puckett, Joe Morgan, Miguel Tejeda, I-Rod, and Willie Mays on speed dial.
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