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2012 MLB Non Sox
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Post by jmei on Dec 9, 2012 23:38:49 GMT -5
28 GMs just threw up a little in their mouth.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 9, 2012 23:41:28 GMT -5
I think the sox were not in on this but couldn't do it becuase KC has a hard on for the TB pitchers...
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 9, 2012 23:42:04 GMT -5
Andrew Friedman is playing the game at it's highest level. Ben Cherrington is just watching...and picking up Larry Lucchino's dry cleaning when he's told. so we are going back to the BC is a puppet route..... YIPPE :-l ENOUGH for F*** sake The Red Sox had their chance to get Myers and didn't come away with him. Friedman just pulled off a deal that will get them a cleanup hitter for years to bat behind Longoria for a pitcher who's going to become too expensive for them in a short time. Meanwhile, Ben is paying the thoroughly mediocre Shane Victorino $13 million the next three years and at some point he'll probably be dislodged by Bryce Brentz who is nowhere near the prospect Myers is. All so the Sox can win 80 games the next two seasons with the declining Jon Lester leading the way and then on his way elsewhere to free agent riches. But hey, as long as the Red Sox are semi-competitve, everybody is happy, right?
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 9, 2012 23:43:59 GMT -5
It will never end.
Every move anybody else makes its gonna be....OOOOOOOOHHHHHH BCCC SUX!!!!
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 9, 2012 23:44:03 GMT -5
so we are going back to the BC is a puppet route..... YIPPE :-l ENOUGH for F*** sake The Red Sox had their chance to get Myers and didn't come away with him. Friedman just pulled off a deal that will get them a cleanup hitter for years to bat behind Longoria for a pitcher who's going to become too expensive for them in a short time. Meanwhile, Ben is paying the thoroughly mediocre Shane Victorino $13 million the next three years and at some point he'll probably be dislodged by Bryce Brentz who is nowhere near the prospect Myers is. All so the Sox can win 80 games the next two seasons with the declining Jon Lester leading the way and then on his way elsewhere to free agent riches. But hey, as long as the Red Sox are semi-competitve, everybody is happy, right? you dont think the sox were in on this? how do you know that KC didnt PREFER TB's pitchers? and Re: the bolded, you realize thats what the market is paying this year RIGHT?
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Post by jmei on Dec 9, 2012 23:44:40 GMT -5
Seriously, this is just a staggeringly terrible trade for Kansas City. Hell, Shields for Odorizzi, Montgomery, and Leonard might be fair, but then KC went and threw in the second best hitting prospect in the major leagues, too. I can't even be mad at Cherington because there's no chance in hell he wouldn't have jumped on an offer like this if it had been available, so it must have never been even close to being on the table. Wow.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 9, 2012 23:44:44 GMT -5
It will never end. Every move anybody else makes its gonna be....OOOOOOOOHHHHHH BCCC SUX!!!! BC didnt do it becuase he is a puppet who has no authority! *sarcasm* F*****
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 9, 2012 23:46:26 GMT -5
Seriously, this is just a staggeringly terrible trade for Kansas City. Hell, Shields for Odorizzi, Montgomery, and Leonard might be fair, but then KC went and threw in the second best hitting prospect in the major leagues, too. I can't even be mad at Cherington because there's no chance in hell he wouldn't have jumped on an offer like this if it had been available, so it must have never been even close to being on the table. Wow. you dont think every other team would jump on this offer? Thats my point. KC most likely prefered TB pitchers
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Post by jmei on Dec 9, 2012 23:47:20 GMT -5
Look, whatever your opinion of Cherington, you insult his intelligence by thinking that he wouldn't have made the Red Sox equivalent of this deal. Dayton Moore just clearly had a case of Friedman-induced insanity.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 9, 2012 23:51:35 GMT -5
Nuts. The Red Sox equivalent would be what, Lester and Tazawa? As a preemptive move, all not-Red-Sox-centric discussion of this trade should go into the 2012 Non Sox thread. Not sure Tazawa is quite the equivalent of Davis. Davis was very good for a full season, and has been a solid MLB starter. Also, wow.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 9, 2012 23:52:50 GMT -5
Ugh. Trade involved a position player better than any the Red Sox had and a pitcher (arguably) superior to any the Red Sox had. Moreover, both went to a rival. This stinks.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 9, 2012 23:53:22 GMT -5
I was for acquiring Myers but Shields is a better pitcher than anything we would offer and that influences how much the Rays got. One has to think that the Royals didn't value Lester at the same level of Shields.
I have no problem with people expressing their displeasure with Ben Cherrington but come up with something better that "He's a puppet."
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Post by bluechip on Dec 9, 2012 23:54:20 GMT -5
Seriously, this is just a staggeringly terrible trade for Kansas City. Hell, Shields for Odorizzi, Montgomery, and Leonard might be fair, but then KC went and threw in the second best hitting prospect in the major leagues, too. I can't even be mad at Cherington because there's no chance in hell he wouldn't have jumped on an offer like this if it had been available, so it must have never been even close to being on the table. Wow. you dont think every other team would jump on this offer? Thats my point. KC most likely prefered TB pitchers I agree that that they preferred the Tampa pitchers. Nevertheless, they paid the price for a David Price and recieved James Shields.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 9, 2012 23:56:21 GMT -5
This is totally nuts. If I'm Friedman, I do this trade without Myers. Who is, of course, the biggest piece of the package coming their way. Absolute theft.
This isn't quite Kazmir for Zambrano, because Shields and Davis are actually good pitchers, but it's probably the biggest head-scratcher I've seen since then.
Wouldn't be shocked to see TB turn around and package a couple of the young arms from their stable for another outfielder. Peter Bourjos is an obvious target to me, as the Angels could use pitching.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 10, 2012 0:00:57 GMT -5
This package really makes me wonder if people in the game saw something that the general public is missing. I doubt it, but I really cannot explain this trade. Heck even a big market team which is trying to win in 2013 should give up a pitcher for this package.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 10, 2012 0:02:39 GMT -5
The Red Sox had their chance to get Myers and didn't come away with him. Friedman just pulled off a deal that will get them a cleanup hitter for years to bat behind Longoria for a pitcher who's going to become too expensive for them in a short time. Meanwhile, Ben is paying the thoroughly mediocre Shane Victorino $13 million the next three years and at some point he'll probably be dislodged by Bryce Brentz who is nowhere near the prospect Myers is. All so the Sox can win 80 games the next two seasons with the declining Jon Lester leading the way and then on his way elsewhere to free agent riches. But hey, as long as the Red Sox are semi-competitve, everybody is happy, right? you dont think the sox were in on this? how do you know that KC didnt PREFER TB's pitchers? and Re: the bolded, you realize thats what the market is paying this year RIGHT? Yes, I do believe the Sox were in on this, and I'm trying to remember where I read this, I think it was Gammons, but I remember reading that the Sox turned down a Lester deal for Myers. And if that is indeed the case, I find that extremely troubling. And if that's the case, then the Sox had first crack at it and let a golden opportunity pass. The Red Sox SET the market for a mediocrity like Victorino, so please spare me the market price argument. KC is a crappy team who spent their best prospect for a good pitcher who'll soon be gone. Does that mean the Sox should follow their approach and deal Bogaerts for a good rent-a-pitcher? Just because another team makes a bad decision, whether it's trading talent, or grossly overpaying a mediocre player (which was something that was being quoted as being said by other GMs at the Winter Meetings and for good reason) thru free agency, doesn't mean the Sox need to do the same thing. For the record, I don't think Ben is Larry's puppet, but he certainly got overruled in the Bobby Valentine fiasco last year - that wasn't Ben's hire - and I don't know that he'll fight Larry the way Theo tried to when he didn't believe in something. Regardless, I do believe the baseball moves are Ben's and not necessarily Larry's, so I don't think that Cherington is his puppet. No.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Dec 10, 2012 0:05:59 GMT -5
Im confused is Ben Cherrington the GM of the Royals now? If so, I understand why everyone is so angry at him....
But come on this board used to be one of, if not the most interesting and informative prospect boards out there. However lateley it has become a festering cesspool of bullshit.
I have nothing but respect and appreciation for Contributors, Mods, and staff of this site as well as several other posters here, but lately it seems that for every single informative and intellegent post there are ten posts about how dumb BC is, that LL is ruining the Sox, that we will never ever be able to compete ever again, that all of our prospects will reach thier cielings, that RBI's are a useful stat, and so forth.
I hate saying this because SoxProspects is the first site I visit for new about \all things Red Sox, the write ups and reports from the staff here are simply the best and most detailed of any website (including pay for content sites) and those writers are even passionate enought to be active particapants on the forms. But lately reading the forums here feel like reading the comments section below an article on ESPN.
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Post by bsout2 on Dec 10, 2012 0:06:22 GMT -5
This package really makes me wonder if people in the game saw something that the general public is missing. I doubt it, but I really cannot explain this trade. Heck even a big market team which is trying to win in 2013 should give up a pitcher for this package. I second this. This trade did not go down without other GM's not knowing the asking price. Maybe some GM's really are scared of the 140 strike outs Myers had last year.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 10, 2012 0:07:10 GMT -5
you dont think the sox were in on this? how do you know that KC didnt PREFER TB's pitchers? and Re: the bolded, you realize thats what the market is paying this year RIGHT? Yes, I do believe the Sox were in on this, and I'm trying to remember where I read this, I think it was Gammons, but I remember reading that the Sox turned down a Lester deal for Myers. And if that is indeed the case, I find that extremely troubling. And if that's the case, then the Sox had first crack at it and let a golden opportunity pass. The Red Sox SET the market for a mediocrity like Victorino, so please spare me the market price argument. KC is a crappy team who spent their best prospect for a good pitcher who'll soon be gone. Does that mean the Sox should follow their approach and deal Bogaerts for a good rent-a-pitcher? Just because another team makes a bad decision, whether it's trading talent, or grossly overpaying a mediocre player (which was something that was being quoted as being said by other GMs at the Winter Meetings and for good reason) thru free agency, doesn't mean the Sox need to do the same thing. For the record, I don't think Ben is Larry's puppet, but he certainly got overruled in the Bobby Valentine fiasco last year - that wasn't Ben's hire - and I don't know that he'll fight Larry the way Theo tried to when he didn't believe in something. Regardless, I do believe the baseball moves are Ben's and not necessarily Larry's, so I don't think that Cherington is his puppet. No. what was the contract the former roid user in SF got? what about the other contracts signed? what about the ATL contract?....
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Post by jmei on Dec 10, 2012 0:26:45 GMT -5
I can't fathom how you could be mad about this. Me? I'm wondering what cosmic misfortune has led Dayton Moore to be entrusted with decision-making powers for a Major League Baseball franchise while I have to settle for cramming a term's worth of antitrust law.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 10, 2012 0:31:09 GMT -5
I can't fathom how you could be mad about this. Me? I'm wondering what cosmic misfortune has led Dayton Moore to be entrusted with decision-making powers for a Major League Baseball franchise while I have to settle for cramming a term's worth of antitrust law. I swear I heard/read that the Sox turned down the deal. If that's the case, then obviously I would be pretty annoyed with them. If that's not the case, then obviously Tampa would have the better package to offer than the Sox. No doubt about that. Just be thankful that when Theo went on his first hiatus that Dayton Moore didn't wind up as Sox GM. My memory might be wrong on this, but I think he was one of the guys Lucchino was looking at to be GM.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 10, 2012 0:42:55 GMT -5
This is from a guy that covers the Royals' minor leagues and is a Royals fan. If its true that the Royals offered Myers for Lester then:
1) We have to assume, a very big assumption I know, that Shields is more valuable than Lester and the Royals would agree so the package wouldn't be as large(No Oddorizzi).
2) Wade Davis was a reliever last year because of the Rays' depth not because his inability. I would equate him to Doubront and even then Davis might be better.
3) The Red Sox main problem is the rotation so subtracting 2- reliable starter one, Doubront, under team control for a while would have been tough since we don't what else beyond Myers would be coming back assuming Shield & Davis is better than Lester and Doubront.
I was all for trading Lester and acquiring Myers but this deal that the Royals made makes me think that the logistics for such a trade aren't as easy as Ben Cherrington saying yes.
Edit: Good job by Tampa who had a great trade piece, PITCHING, and pounced on it.
I remember some wanted to trade for Price.....After this trade I wouldn't even want to think what it would take.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 10, 2012 1:19:27 GMT -5
The trade we know the Sox turned down was Myers for Lester. Passan just reported on Twitter that at one point the Rays turned down Myers for Shields straight up. So while Friedman deserves praise for swindling the Royals on this one, he turned down essentially the exact same trade we know the Red Sox turned down. We know nothing else about how this deal went down w/r/t the Rays or Red Sox. For all we know the Sox actually were in on it, or perhaps the Royals went hard after the two Rays guys. Is it possible Cherington missed the boat? Sure, but unless someone here is holding out on us, we have no reason to believe that as a fact, unless you're willing to say the same thing about the other 27 GMs in baseball.
If the key to this deal was that the Royals received two MLB rotation-ready pitchers, then the Red Sox simply couldn't match that and have anything approaching a competitive team in 2013. I agree with Norb that the analogous deal would have been Lester and Doubront, which would have left the Red Sox with three holes in the rotation to fill rather than one. The Rays, meanwhile, slot in some combination of Niemann, Cobb, and Archer and they're fine.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 10, 2012 1:30:14 GMT -5
Passan with another: A's turned down Myers for Brett Anderson straight up.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 10, 2012 1:30:54 GMT -5
More evidence that the deal that the Red Sox probably turned down was Myers straight up for Lester which Cherrington was right to turn down with the rate of pitching going up and up.
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