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Post by honkbal on Dec 10, 2012 12:12:27 GMT -5
It would certaintly take a lot of guys to make this trade as BC. If this trade goes sour, and that's a legit possibility, then the trade might cost BC his job. GMs are rarely fired for the great moves they fail to make. GMs can be fired for making bad moves. A GM with a long track record can afford to make these riskier trades. Our friend in Tampa has a great track record, thus he can afford to take risks. Also the smaller market is expected to take more risks. He needs to take those risks to field a competitive team. BC has alternative ways to build his team. Never mind BC's job, a trade on this level going sour could be enough to run the entire ownership group out of town. There's also the matter of just what it would take for this to be considered a bad deal for the Rays against what it would take for this to be considered a good deal for the Red Sox. For the Rays, if Myers takes a few years to develop or only becomes an above average regular, not an All-Star, and Odorizzi moves into the back of the rotation in 2014 then this trade is absolutely still a success, regardless of how well Shields continues to perform in KC. If the same thing happens and it's the Red Sox? And Lester bounces back next year for the Royals?
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 10, 2012 12:24:52 GMT -5
The strongest speculation about the actual offer the Royals made was Myers for Lester, they made the same offer to the A's and Rays. The Lester-Doubront was my speculation trying to come up with an equivalent offer from the Red Sox if the deal had expanded. For all we know the Royals made the Myers for Lester offer and then went to Tampa and engage.
I don't think Cherrington "missed the boat" on fleecing the Royals he just simply didn't have the chips to do it. The Royals might have overpaid but they still got a better pitcher than anything we have, which influences the deal.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 10, 2012 12:30:41 GMT -5
I don't think Cherrington "missed the boat" on fleecing the Royals he just simply didn't have the chips to do it. The Royals might have overpaid but they still got a better pitcher than anything we have, which influences the deal. Isn't it entirely possible that Moore just really wanted Shields, and the Lester trade would have gone down if Tampa had refused to move him? I really hate when we assume "oh, well clearly the Red Sox could have made trade X". Well, we don't know that.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 10, 2012 12:41:12 GMT -5
I don't think Cherrington "missed the boat" on fleecing the Royals he just simply didn't have the chips to do it. The Royals might have overpaid but they still got a better pitcher than anything we have, which influences the deal. Isn't it entirely possible that Moore just really wanted Shields, and the Lester trade would have gone down if Tampa had refused to move him? I really hate when we assume "oh, well clearly the Red Sox could have made trade X". Well, we don't know that. Objectively, James Shields is probably a better chip from the Royals prospective.
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Post by jioh on Dec 10, 2012 12:57:52 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 10, 2012 13:16:08 GMT -5
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Post by bluechip on Dec 10, 2012 13:19:40 GMT -5
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 10, 2012 14:13:15 GMT -5
Mine, too. The Royals got very desperate. I'm surprised Beane said no to Anderson for Myers, but I can see him hesitant to part with Anderson as the A's now have something to lose. The Rays, like the A's, have something to lose, but they know that they have no chance to afford Shields (Anderson with his injury history would be more affordable for Oakland as a free agent), and the Rays have some serious starting pitching depth - at least for now - until they have to deal Price. Somebody correctly pointed out that if the Sox wanted to try to fleece the Royals even more than a Lester for Myers swap, they could have tried to equate the package the Royals received, either with a Doubront or a Morales or a Tazawa (depending upon whether KC views Davis as a starter or not - something he's not been very successful at). And it was also correctly pointed out that if the Sox lose Lester, then they're REALLY short on the starting pitching side of things. That cannot be denied - but again, if you take an hard, honest look at where the Sox are in comparison to the other teams - unless the Sox make some drastic improvements - there's a decent chance they are still in the basement in 2013 - Toronto is much improved (Bautista coming back healthy helps alot), Tampa is still better, the Yanks, despite their mounting issues, should be better. The Orioles? Maybe they'll go 10-30 in 1 run games next year just to make things equal out. The question would have been: do the Red Sox shift their focus to 2014 and beyond when the young talent is ready? You still could field a representative team without Lester and either Doubront or Tazawa or Morales gone. The money that could have been earmarked for Hamilton could have been divided up among two middle tier pitchers to go with Buchholz, Lackey, and either Morales or Doubront with the idea that perhaps De La Rosa is ready by mid-season or that Webster or Barnes push their way up by the end or the season (or even Stephen Wright for that matter). Or there could have been a few leftovers the Sox could have gotten. My feeling is that either Lester rebounds and will be looking for close to $20 million/year once his deal expires - do the Sox do that with a 31 year old pitcher? Or does his decline continue and he isn't worth the $15 million/year he'd want as a declining/middling kind of pitcher. I guess the question becomes: Is Lester somebody who can be part of the next Great Red Sox team? That's the big debate. If no, then get somebody for him who can be.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 10, 2012 14:22:12 GMT -5
Jerry Crasnick @jcrasnick I heard same thing @martinonydn reported -- that #royals asked #mets for Jon Niese and Zack Wheeler for Myers, straight up.
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Post by elguapo on Dec 10, 2012 14:30:26 GMT -5
The Sox would have had plenty of room to buy pitching under the 'cap' after a theoretical Lester+/Myers+ deal -- what, $50M/yr? Plus they would be in a good position to deal Ellsbury (saving $10M) for pitching. They could afford as much free agent starting pitching as they desired: Sanchez Marcum Dempster Buchholz Lackey. Not world-beating, almost certainly overpaid, but fairly solid.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 10, 2012 14:30:29 GMT -5
I agree with the Mets turning that down. I'm impressed by Wheeler, and while top pitching prospects have a much higher attrition/failure rate than top hitting prospects, the cost of pitching goes a way toward evening that out in the risk-reward analysis. Wheeler-Myers straight up would've probably been even, but Niese is good enough to throw that out of balance.
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Post by burythehammer on Dec 10, 2012 17:34:51 GMT -5
"I think they maximized Myers' value." That is high comedy. They maximized the top prospect in baseball who hasn't even started his clock yet's value, and it's two years of James Shields at 13m per? Oh, but not without a top 50 pitching prospect and two more prospects to boot. Another guy in that piece actually says it's a good trade because it will save Dayton Moore's job. Amazing.
Why is it so hard for some people to admit that there are still some GMs playing checkers while guys like Friedman play chess?
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 10, 2012 22:47:44 GMT -5
Rotoworld Baseball @rotoworld_BB Twins ink 2-yr, $10M deal with Kevin Correia dlvr.it/2cgRP9
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Post by soxfanatic on Dec 11, 2012 15:12:57 GMT -5
Danny Knobler reports that Rick Porcello is drawing trade interest. He doesn't specifically mention the Sox, but I think he'd make a great target. Young, cost controlled and his price wouldn't be that high I assume. His stats haven't been that good, but with better infield defense his stats should improve. Thoughts?
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 11, 2012 16:03:29 GMT -5
RT @dknobler: Reds deep in talks on deal to acquire Shin-soo Choo from Indians for Stubbs and Gregorius. cbsprt.co/UfMpzf
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Post by raftsox on Dec 11, 2012 16:11:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure if I like the thought of Porcello as a "buy low" candidate with upside, or as a conclusion to Julio Lugo. I'm leaning towards the Lugo thing. A good defense could help, but groundballers are usually giving up BABIPs in the .310 range, he's really only been a little bit higher than that. Doesn't strike many out, also doesn't walk many, but... Ehh.
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Post by sibbysisti on Dec 11, 2012 16:12:38 GMT -5
RT @dknobler: Reds deep in talks on deal to acquire Shin-soo Choo from Indians for Stubbs and Gregorius. cbsprt.co/UfMpzfPrelude to an Azdrubal trade?
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Post by Guidas on Dec 11, 2012 16:12:43 GMT -5
Danny Knobler reports that Rick Porcello is drawing trade interest. He doesn't specifically mention the Sox, but I think he'd make a great target. Young, cost controlled and his price wouldn't be that high I assume. His stats haven't been that good, but with better infield defense his stats should improve. Thoughts? As always depends on the price but I like the idea of this as long as they aren't giving up Bogaerts or Barnes in any package for him.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 11, 2012 16:27:59 GMT -5
Danny Knobler reports that Rick Porcello is drawing trade interest. He doesn't specifically mention the Sox, but I think he'd make a great target. Young, cost controlled and his price wouldn't be that high I assume. His stats haven't been that good, but with better infield defense his stats should improve. Thoughts? As always depends on the price but I like the idea of this as long as they aren't giving up Bogaerts or Barnes in any package for him. I agree. I think he would be a good addition, again depending on the price. The tigers have some pretty terrible defenders, and Percello's peripheral stats have been pretty good these last couple of years.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 11, 2012 17:59:46 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal Source: #Yankees sign Youkilis, one year, $12M. ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 11, 2012 18:02:24 GMT -5
This time is not gonna be Yoooooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk....Its gonna be BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
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Post by mainesox on Dec 11, 2012 18:33:09 GMT -5
It shouldn't be
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Post by jmei on Dec 11, 2012 18:35:47 GMT -5
Wonder how he and Joba are going to get along.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 11, 2012 19:04:48 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal Source: #Yankees sign Youkilis, one year, $12M. ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) Karma, you bitch.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Dec 11, 2012 19:31:05 GMT -5
So, does Padilla play the role of Joba when the Red Sox face the Yankees and Youkilis in 2013?
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