SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 1, 2013 19:04:36 GMT -5
As for "jumping the shark", I don't quite get it. I still don't like the guy, he has had a spotty work ethic at best, is a jerk in interviews, treated his wife like crap while she was going through cancer treatment, etc., etc., etc. No idea what you're basing the work ethic thing on. He pitched on a torn up elbow in '11 and came back strong from his rehab this year. I could not possibly care less how much of a jerk he is in interviews. As for treating his family poorly, well, maybe that'll result in him ending up as a cryogenically frozen head one day, but that's his problem...
|
|
|
Post by theaveragefan88 on Aug 1, 2013 19:05:21 GMT -5
In reality, we have 4 starters locked in for next year's rotation and it really comes down to Dempster or Lackey. Just my personal preference, but I'd rather have Dempster as my 5th starter than Lackey. Yeah, good luck with that. 6 months ago everyone was bashing Lackey and would have paid to help get him out of town. Now all of a sudden he is invaluable to the team? That's laughable. And Dempster is being treated like he is easily far worse than Lackey? Really? Talk about SSS! These two pitchers are really not far apart in terms of talent, so I highly doubt it will effect the team's winning or losing much, and I'd rather have the cheaper guy who is a good clubhouse leader.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 1, 2013 19:15:43 GMT -5
I'm as big a proponent of statistical analysis as anyone, but when a player was known to have been playing injured, has corrective surgery, and then makes a stunning turnaround reflected in both scouting reports and statistical analysis, I'm happy to essentially dismiss the pre-injury data. And yes, they are incredibly far in talent.
|
|
|
Post by killingmesmalls on Aug 1, 2013 19:19:50 GMT -5
Yeah, good luck with that. 6 months ago everyone was bashing Lackey and would have paid to help get him out of town. Now all of a sudden he is invaluable to the team? That's laughable. And Dempster is being treated like he is easily far worse than Lackey? Really? Talk about SSS! These two pitchers are really not far apart in terms of talent, so I highly doubt it will effect the team's winning or losing much, and I'd rather have the cheaper guy who is a good clubhouse leader. First, Lackey is always commended as one of the best teammates around by Red Sox players. Second, two years of Lackey at a total of 17m, or 1 year of Dempster at 13.25m? I would choose two years of a healthy Lackey.
|
|
|
Post by theaveragefan88 on Aug 1, 2013 19:20:06 GMT -5
I'm as big a proponent of statistical analysis as anyone, but when a player was known to have been playing injured, has corrective surgery, and then makes a stunning turnaround reflected in both scouting reports and statistical analysis, I'm happy to essentially dismiss the pre-injury data. And yes, they are incredibly far in talent. This year is an outlier, look at their careers. You want to throw out the past couple years of on and off field crap? Fine. Let's go to 2010. What Lackey did for the BoSox in 2010 is nearly identical to what Dempster is doing for them now. ERA in mid 4's, WHIP around 1.4, Over 150 K's.
|
|
|
Post by dfwsox on Aug 1, 2013 19:21:01 GMT -5
Fonz with some big air on that jump. haha Cracks me up everytime I see that. Cant remember who mentioned trading Lester. But I think I'd buy into that if you getting a teams top prospect. Between Lackey and Dempster I'd have to go with Lackey. Very consistent this year, they would be in trouble with out him. Nice problem to have with the depth but something that needs to be well thought out if we trade some of it.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 1, 2013 19:39:33 GMT -5
Dempster really isn't that great, not sure who would be willing to give up decent prospects for a $12M 5th starter.
Lackey could bring a higher return. Sell high on Lackey I say. Unless, like other people mentioned, someone offers a lot for Lester. Lester will be a rental though at that point so I think thats doubtful.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 1, 2013 19:56:51 GMT -5
This year is an outlier, look at their careers. You want to throw out the past couple years of on and off field crap? Fine. Let's go to 2010. What Lackey did for the BoSox in 2010 is nearly identical to what Dempster is doing for them now. ERA in mid 4's, WHIP around 1.4, Over 150 K's. Lackey in 2010: 3.85 FIP, 4.15 xFIP Dempster in 2013: 4.83 FIP, 4.26 xFIP
|
|
|
Post by theaveragefan88 on Aug 1, 2013 20:00:28 GMT -5
This year is an outlier, look at their careers. You want to throw out the past couple years of on and off field crap? Fine. Let's go to 2010. What Lackey did for the BoSox in 2010 is nearly identical to what Dempster is doing for them now. ERA in mid 4's, WHIP around 1.4, Over 150 K's. Lackey in 2010: 3.85 FIP, 4.15 xFIP Dempster in 2013: 4.83 FIP, 4.26 xFIP Not a fan of FIP personally.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 1, 2013 20:03:41 GMT -5
How about this, then: Dempster is an extreme fly ball pitcher who gets strikeouts but issues too many walks. Lackey has much better control and gets many more ground balls with a similar strikeout rate.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Aug 1, 2013 20:04:39 GMT -5
Why sell high on lackey and keep the 5th starter? Keep them both. Don't people realize that it's ok to use a player through his usefulness when you're trying to contend? No need to trade any of them.
As far as Lackey being a jerk to his wife, unless you know him personally, you have no basis for stating that. If you do know him personally, then you're just an ass for airing that. Furthermore, I don't condone it but if it were true, who gives a rats ass when it comes to winning baseball games.
Reports are he was hurt when they signed him which was why that provision was in his contract. You completely under-rate what Lackey was with the Angels. He had major surgery and is pitching and throwing like the guy Theo tought he was signing and now you want to move him, largely because you think he's a jerk. Good reason.
|
|
|
Post by theaveragefan88 on Aug 1, 2013 20:06:55 GMT -5
How about this, then: Dempster is an extreme fly ball pitcher who gets strikeouts but issues too many walks. Lackey has much better control and gets many more ground balls with a similar strikeout rate. Agreed for the most part. Dempster is a fly ball pitcher and gives up more homers while also walking more guys. Lackey is more of a groundball pitcher with better control and not quite the strikeout pitcher Dempster is, but close. That just dictates their style of pitching though. If in the end they both give up the same amount of runs, it doesn't truly matter. I wouldn't be upset if the Sox kept Lackey and traded Dempster, I am just saying they are more similar than people think and it is not a no-brainer to me to stick with Lackey.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Aug 1, 2013 20:09:32 GMT -5
By the way Ortiz's wife filed for divorce from him - widely publicized that Tek wasn't faithful and his wife divorced him as a result. Lacey actually divorced his wife, not the other way around. All this is just stupid talk anyways as its irrelevant to playing baseball. If ou want everyone you root for to have high morals, you better stop watching sports.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Aug 1, 2013 20:11:51 GMT -5
How about Dempster is going to be 37 while Lackey will be 35... 35 is older... 37 is OLD
|
|
|
Post by xxdamgoodxx on Aug 1, 2013 20:12:25 GMT -5
Lackey in 2010: 3.85 FIP, 4.15 xFIP Dempster in 2013: 4.83 FIP, 4.26 xFIP Lackey is better than Dempster. We all know that. People are kidding themselves if they think that they are the same or Dempster is better. Dempster, even if you eat almost all the money, gets you next to nothing in an offseason trade. He is no better than any FA options that are out there. No one will want or need him and you are not going to get even close to a "B" prospect, which some are implying.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Aug 1, 2013 20:14:00 GMT -5
I hate that I'm arguing against Dempster because he's been what they've needed for the most part, but Lackey ha been much better and his stuff has been great. It's not a coincidence
|
|
|
Post by theaveragefan88 on Aug 1, 2013 20:15:58 GMT -5
By the way Ortiz's wife filed for divorce from him - widely publicized that Tek wasn't faithful and his wife divorced him as a result. Lacey actually divorced his wife, not the other way around. All this is just stupid talk anyways as its irrelevant to playing baseball. If ou want everyone you root for to have high morals, you better stop watching sports. That is just an ignorant statement. So if Hernandez could still play football you would root for him since him being a psycho is irrelevant to playing football? Stupid argument. We saw the last couple years how a few "bad eggs" can effect a team. I was not saying that is the reason they should get rid of him, but if they have to get rid of Lackey or Dempster and IMO the talent is about the same, you would then look at that off field behavior (and his higher salary) as points against him.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 1, 2013 20:16:08 GMT -5
Lackey is better than Dempster. We all know that. People are kidding themselves if they think that they are the same or Dempster is better. This dude disagrees.
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Aug 1, 2013 20:18:52 GMT -5
Dempster is a fly ball pitcher and gives up more homers while also walking more guys. Lackey is more of a groundball pitcher with better control and not quite the strikeout pitcher Dempster is, but close. That just dictates their style of pitching though. If in the end they both give up the same amount of runs, it doesn't truly matter. I wouldn't be upset if the Sox kept Lackey and traded Dempster, I am just saying they are more similar than people think and it is not a no-brainer to me to stick with Lackey. But they don't give up the same number of runs. Lackey both has and projects to give up many fewer runs. I understand the "we should sell high on Lackey" argument, even if I don't agree. I just don't understand the "Dempster is better than/as good as/comparable to Lackey" argument.
|
|
|
Post by theaveragefan88 on Aug 1, 2013 20:20:18 GMT -5
Lackey is having a better season, there is absolutely no arguing that. What I am saying is that I doubt Lackey repeats this year just like I doubt he repeats his horrible injury ridden past couple years. I think he is likely to produce like he did for us in 2010, which is very similar to what Dempster is producing for us now.
|
|
|
Post by xxdamgoodxx on Aug 1, 2013 20:21:37 GMT -5
I would still trade Lackey before Dempster because the former gets you much more than the latter.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Aug 1, 2013 20:23:23 GMT -5
By the way Ortiz's wife filed for divorce from him - widely publicized that Tek wasn't faithful and his wife divorced him as a result. Lacey actually divorced his wife, not the other way around. All this is just stupid talk anyways as its irrelevant to playing baseball. If ou want everyone you root for to have high morals, you better stop watching sports. That is just an ignorant statement. So if Hernandez could still play football you would root for him since him being a psycho is irrelevant to playing football? Stupid argument. We saw the last couple years how a few "bad eggs" can effect a team. I was not saying that is the reason they should get rid of him, but if they have to get rid of Lackey or Dempster and IMO the talent is about the same, you would then look at that off field behavior (and his higher salary) as points against him. No an ignorant statement is stating a guy treated his wife like crap when she had cancer when you don't know anything about it. Also, a mass murderer and guys who screw around on their wives aren't in the same stratosphere so lets not be dumb. If you hate David Ortiz then I can understand you not liking Lackey. I think it's dumb but atleast you'd be consistent.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Aug 1, 2013 20:25:52 GMT -5
By the way Ortiz's wife filed for divorce from him - widely publicized that Tek wasn't faithful and his wife divorced him as a result. Lacey actually divorced his wife, not the other way around. All this is just stupid talk anyways as its irrelevant to playing baseball. If ou want everyone you root for to have high morals, you better stop watching sports. That is just an ignorant statement. So if Hernandez could still play football you would root for him since him being a psycho is irrelevant to playing football? Stupid argument. We saw the last couple years how a few "bad eggs" can effect a team. I was not saying that is the reason they should get rid of him, but if they have to get rid of Lackey or Dempster and IMO the talent is about the same, you would then look at that off field behavior (and his higher salary) as points against him. Seriously? Yours is the ignorant statement. He never mentioned criminal activity. He simply addressed & refuted your point. If Lackey is so bad, what about Tek and Ortiz? Are you calling for Ortiz to be traded, too? You are digging a bigger and bigger hole by talking out both sides of your mouth. And I bet you'd love FIP if it supported your argument instead of refuted it.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Aug 1, 2013 20:28:04 GMT -5
Lackey sort of looks like an asshole, but is a terrific teammate and a solid all around guy by all reports. Move along people, nothing to see here.
|
|
|
Post by xxdamgoodxx on Aug 1, 2013 20:28:05 GMT -5
Lackey is having a better season, there is absolutely no arguing that. What I am saying is that I doubt Lackey repeats this year just like I doubt he repeats his horrible injury ridden past couple years. I think he is likely to produce like he did for us in 2010, which is very similar to what Dempster is producing for us now. I brought up this stat before and here it is: Lackey's career ERA when he has 27 starts or more in a season (when he is mostly healthy) is 3.93. Lackey is not a 4.40 ERA pitcher. He is better than that. Dempster is a 4.30-4.40 ERA guy (career ERA of 4.33). Lackey doesn't need to repeat this season to be better than Dempster.
|
|
|