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Masahiro Tanaka (1/22 update: to NYY for 7/$155m)
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 26, 2013 12:53:47 GMT -5
It would be great if Seattle stole him. This is what im hoping for too. I'd rather the Sox stick to their plan. Seattle can help us out by taking these guys and taking the risks for us. That is my hope.
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Post by joshv02 on Dec 26, 2013 13:00:13 GMT -5
agents tend to reap 25% of those deals vs. 10% on the MLB contract. My understanding is that these are about twice as high as reality. I think agents get 3-5% of mlb player-contracts (unlike NBA and NFL these are not mandated), and about 10-20% (usually ~15%) of non player-contracts.
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Post by Gwell55 on Dec 26, 2013 13:35:29 GMT -5
agents tend to reap 25% of those deals vs. 10% on the MLB contract. My understanding is that these are about twice as high as reality. I think agents get 3-5% of mlb player-contracts (unlike NBA and NFL these are not mandated), and about 10-20% (usually ~15%) of non player-contracts. Sounds like your pretty close. It shows here that Boras non-surprisingly makes the most at a 4.7 percent commission. work.chron.com/average-sports-agents-commission-21083.html
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 26, 2013 13:58:09 GMT -5
I hope he signs with the Yankees so I can see him pitch against the Sox.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 26, 2013 15:06:42 GMT -5
There's an argument to be made that if you're looking to win, KC is a better destination than the Bronx, for one example. I envision Japanese people to be very prideful and respectful not only to each other but to the game of baseball as well. They seem to have a great deal of reverence. I am not sure Tanaka san is very much aware of K.C. in the U.S. baseball annals. I strongly suspect that he signs with a team that has a rich baseball tradition. It also appears that his chosen agent represents some other Yankee players. nypost.com/2013/12/25/yankees-pursuit-of-tanaka-begins-thursday/Casey Close represents a number of MLB players including Alex Gordon on the Royals, Greinke and Jamey Wright on the Dodgers, and others in addition to Jeter. My point is only that completely discounting the Royals simply because they haven't made the playoffs in a while doesn't look at the whole picture. I'm not going to argue with the cache the Yankee brand carries compared to any other MLB team, but this also isn't the age of the Yankee juggernaut anymore either.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 26, 2013 16:04:09 GMT -5
Tom Verducci brought up this point I think
At the age of 24, Tanaka has thrown 1300+ innings. The last MLB pitcher to do the same was Frank Tanana who threw 1319 innings/age 24. Tanana was never the same afterwards
So that mileage on the arm is a concern I think.
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 26, 2013 16:04:12 GMT -5
I envision Japanese people to be very prideful and respectful not only to each other but to the game of baseball as well. They seem to have a great deal of reverence. I am not sure Tanaka san is very much aware of K.C. in the U.S. baseball annals. I strongly suspect that he signs with a team that has a rich baseball tradition. It also appears that his chosen agent represents some other Yankee players. nypost.com/2013/12/25/yankees-pursuit-of-tanaka-begins-thursday/Casey Close represents a number of MLB players including Alex Gordon on the Royals, Greinke and Jamey Wright on the Dodgers, and others in addition to Jeter. My point is only that completely discounting the Royals simply because they haven't made the playoffs in a while doesn't look at the whole picture. I'm not going to argue with the cache the Yankee brand carries compared to any other MLB team, but this also isn't the age of the Yankee juggernaut anymore either. If Tanaka signs with any team other than the Yankees, the drinks are on me!
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 26, 2013 16:22:04 GMT -5
Tangential note: the continued little brother syndrome is very unbecoming of Red Sox fans. Even with Tanaka, the Yankees are a marginal playoff team with a weak farm system and very little young talent. I'm on the younger side of things, so maybe the Yankee insecurity isn't as deeply ingrained for me, but I'd be far more concerned about Tanaka landing with the Rangers or the Tigers or even the Angels or the Royals. Yup, I am sure eons of watching the Sox get annually pasted by the Yankees has done some permanent damage to the hard drive. But even you, as a relative whippersnapper, has had to endure the power of the Yankee money machine. I agree that Tanaka on any of the teams you mentioned, except perhaps K.C., would pose a bigger threat to the Sox than if he signed with the Yankees as currently constituted. My hate for the Yankees and their seeming unending ability to "buy" with near impunity overrides reason here. I want them to suffer consequence. I never want to look up at the Yankees in the standings. I respect the Sox management for running a tight ship and resisting temptation. I just wish the Yankees (and now the Dodgers) did not have such financial advantage over most other teams.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 26, 2013 16:38:45 GMT -5
Tom Verducci brought up this point I think At the age of 24, Tanaka has thrown 1300+ innings. The last MLB pitcher to do the same was Frank Tanana who threw 1319 innings/age 24. Tanana was never the same afterwards So that mileage on the arm is a concern I think. Interesting. For those of you who weren't around at that time, or who don't remember, Nolan Ryan was nowhere near the best pitcher on the Angels teams of the mid-70s. He drove Don Drysdale, then the Angels' radio color man, nuts with his wildness. Instead, that honor went to Tanana who had as bright a career in front of him as you'd want. Except that he averaged nearly 260 innings from ages 20 thru 24, and that was that. We'd hope that Tanaka's not headed down that road, no matter who he ends up with.
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Post by jmei on Dec 26, 2013 16:47:32 GMT -5
I want them to suffer consequence. I never want to look up at the Yankees in the standings. Well, the Red Sox just won the World Series while the Yankees missed the playoffs (with all their highly paid veterans showing their age) while now having to struggle through the ARod shenanigans. I'd enjoy that and spend less time worrying about whatever desperate measures the Yankees are resorting to in an effort to claw out 89 wins.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 26, 2013 17:00:12 GMT -5
It's really hard to believe that Tanaka has over 1300 IP through age 24. That's an average of almost 200 innings from the age of 18. I read somewhere that his last game, he threw 160 pitches. I'd stay far away and let someone else make the mistake. If they're lucky, it'll be TJ. Unlucky and it's his shoulder.
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 26, 2013 17:35:15 GMT -5
Tom Verducci brought up this point I think At the age of 24, Tanaka has thrown 1300+ innings. The last MLB pitcher to do the same was Frank Tanana who threw 1319 innings/age 24. Tanana was never the same afterwards So that mileage on the arm is a concern I think. Interesting. For those of you who weren't around at that time, or who don't remember, Nolan Ryan was nowhere near the best pitcher on the Angels teams of the mid-70s. He drove Don Drysdale, then the Angels' radio color man, nuts with his wildness. Instead, that honor went to Tanana who had as bright a career in front of him as you'd want. Except that he averaged nearly 260 innings from ages 20 thru 24, and that was that. We'd hope that Tanaka's not headed down that road, no matter who he ends up with. I remember that time quite well....Ryan seemingly struck out 14 and walked 8 every game while throwing 98-100. God knows what his pitch counts were. He was a freak. Tanana was human. It was certainly a different era. Even today Ryan espouses higher pitch counts and less limits on innings pitched. Today's batters are generally, I believe, more selective and pitch counts rise faster. Teams have enhanced concern in protecting their investments given the developed science. On that basis, Tanaka's innings pitched have to be a concern. On the other hand, look at Kuroda at 39 and some of the other Japanese pitchers on U.S. teams. I suspect that their pitch counts 'over there' were quite high too. So, who knows.
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Post by tonyc on Dec 26, 2013 17:36:38 GMT -5
Jmie,
I've been a longtime sox follower, and on the one hand while you are correct in that other clubs, such as Texas are more complete than the Yankees, on the other, if they truly begin an unbridled cash orgy, they will quickly rise well above an 89 win level, with a number of arms available next year as well as Tanaka this year. As posted earlier, if that is the case we could easily parallel the '75 Sox, who instead of at the beginning of a farm produced golden age, in both '77 and '78 had .600 teams that were overpowered by Yankee money. More to the point today, I would be much more fearful of a Tanaka coup to the Yankees than anyone, by far, given that todays rules render a wild-card a one game coin toss to enter the playoffs, with an exhausted and non-optimally setup pitching staff.
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Post by jdb on Dec 26, 2013 17:46:32 GMT -5
Tom Verducci brought up this point I think At the age of 24, Tanaka has thrown 1300+ innings. The last MLB pitcher to do the same was Frank Tanana who threw 1319 innings/age 24. Tanana was never the same afterwards So that mileage on the arm is a concern I think. Agree to many risks for me to be comfortable handing out 6 years and 110-130 million on top of a $20 million posting fee.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 26, 2013 18:07:52 GMT -5
My understanding is that these are about twice as high as reality. I think agents get 3-5% of mlb player-contracts (unlike NBA and NFL these are not mandated), and about 10-20% (usually ~15%) of non player-contracts. Sounds like your pretty close. It shows here that Boras non-surprisingly makes the most at a 4.7 percent commission. work.chron.com/average-sports-agents-commission-21083.htmlI bet his minions putting those binders together get paid next to nothing.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 26, 2013 18:09:37 GMT -5
I want them to suffer consequence. I never want to look up at the Yankees in the standings. Well, the Red Sox just won the World Series while the Yankees missed the playoffs (with all their highly paid veterans showing their age) while now having to struggle through the ARod shenanigans. I'd enjoy that and spend less time worrying about whatever desperate measures the Yankees are resorting to in an effort to claw out 89 wins. I second this. It bothers me more that some actually brings "keeping a player away from NY" as a legitimate reason the Red Sox should sign a player. It's asinine.
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Post by Gwell55 on Dec 26, 2013 18:20:20 GMT -5
I bet his minions putting those binders together get paid next to nothing. Yea, those minions in the 75,000-99,000 starting out wage must live a pure He double toothpick life.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 26, 2013 18:42:59 GMT -5
My understanding is that these are about twice as high as reality. I think agents get 3-5% of mlb player-contracts (unlike NBA and NFL these are not mandated), and about 10-20% (usually ~15%) of non player-contracts. Sounds like your pretty close. It shows here that Boras non-surprisingly makes the most at a 4.7 percent commission. work.chron.com/average-sports-agents-commission-21083.htmlMy bad - I thought it was the same as movie/TV business where agents are traditionally referred to as "Ten Percenters."
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Post by stevedillard on Dec 26, 2013 19:07:18 GMT -5
For those of you who weren't around at that time, or who don't remember, Nolan Ryan was nowhere near the best pitcher on the Angels teams of the mid-70s. He drove Don Drysdale, then the Angels' radio color man, nuts with his wildness. Instead, that honor went to Tanana who had as bright a career in front of him as you'd want. Except that he averaged nearly 260 innings from ages 20 thru 24, and that was that. We remember the story, with Tanana eventually ending up in Boston as part of the whole Burleson/Mark Clear, etc California trades. But that was the radio days, where Baseball was more a narrative than actual watching/scouting. Anyone remember Tanana's velo? Was he 95-98 MPH pre-injury?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 26, 2013 19:14:53 GMT -5
I bet his minions putting those binders together get paid next to nothing. Yea, those minions in the 75,000-99,000 starting out wage must live a pure He double toothpick life. From everything I've ever heard about Boras, the people who work under him are extremely good. I highly doubt he's cutting corners when it comes to his staff.
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Post by mainesox on Dec 26, 2013 19:29:43 GMT -5
Tom Verducci brought up this point I think At the age of 24, Tanaka has thrown 1300+ innings. The last MLB pitcher to do the same was Frank Tanana who threw 1319 innings/age 24. Tanana was never the same afterwards So that mileage on the arm is a concern I think. Two things, Dwight Gooden actually threw 1300+ innings before turning 25 after Tanana did it (he got injured when he was 29 and was never the same after either), and one (or two) guys is a miniscule sample and hardly something you can draw any real conclusion from, especially considering the volatility of pitchers and risk of pitcher injuries in general. That's not to say that the mileage on his arm shouldn't be a consideration, just that the reasoning is weak at best.
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Post by sarasoxer on Dec 26, 2013 19:38:51 GMT -5
Well, the Red Sox just won the World Series while the Yankees missed the playoffs (with all their highly paid veterans showing their age) while now having to struggle through the ARod shenanigans. I'd enjoy that and spend less time worrying about whatever desperate measures the Yankees are resorting to in an effort to claw out 89 wins. I second this. It bothers me more that some actually brings "keeping a player away from NY" as a legitimate reason the Red Sox should sign a player. It's asinine. Oh I agree entirely. The Sox should attend to their own rankings and stay within their discipline. They need to with more limited cache. I hope, if Tanaka proves to be an outstanding pitcher, that he signs somewhere else than N.Y.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 26, 2013 19:44:02 GMT -5
1, 2 the Yankees are coming for you 3, 4 they gonna sign Trout 4, 5 Bryce Harper too 6, 7 trade for Jose Fernandez 8, 9 X is going too 10, 11 the Red Sox will never win again
My new song for Nightmare on Yawkey Way.
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Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Dec 26, 2013 19:46:12 GMT -5
bleacherreport.com/articles/1837558-should-mlb-gms-be-wary-of-masahiro-tanakas-abused-armSo he has been pitching in international completion for seven years and all the arm abused assumed. Now he goes 160 in a loss then throws in relief the next day. His team could keep him for another year, defend the title then get the same 20 million. But they are choosing to let him go a year early and outside of the very real possibility of a "partnership" with a team, they still get 20 and only 20. I'm not so sure I want anyone to steal him from the Yankees.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 26, 2013 20:23:45 GMT -5
Tom Verducci brought up this point I think At the age of 24, Tanaka has thrown 1300+ innings. The last MLB pitcher to do the same was Frank Tanana who threw 1319 innings/age 24. Tanana was never the same afterwards So that mileage on the arm is a concern I think. Two things, Dwight Gooden actually threw 1300+ innings before turning 25 after Tanana did it (he got injured when he was 29 and was never the same after either), and one (or two) guys is a miniscule sample and hardly something you can draw any real conclusion from, especially considering the volatility of pitchers and risk of pitcher injuries in general. That's not to say that the mileage on his arm shouldn't be a consideration, just that the reasoning is weak at best. Aside from the fact that Gooden did that in 6+ years and Tanana in 5, it's not that common to find a pitcher given that sort of workload at that age. Sending a young guy out there for 250+ innings does not appear to have been something that was all that common even in the "good old days". The examples I can find do not bode well for the idea. Dizzy Dean pitched 1700 innings between the ages of 22 and 27. He was through by age 27. Warren Spahn started in one of the truly remarkable careers but not till he was 26, having returned from WWII. From that time through his age 42 season he averaged 278 innings. I can't even wrap my mind around that. Bob Feller did pitch 1300 innings over his age 18 to 22 seasons. Then he went off to war and gave the arm nearly four years of rest. He did start right back in at age 27. Wes Ferrell pitched 1300+ from ages 21-25 with Cleveland. He came to Boston and kept it up for another 1264 innings. Then he was through at 30. This would be a fairly simple exercise - to figure out how often that's happened and what the results have looked like. We're away from home for Christmas, but I'll try to give it a whirl when I get back.
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