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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 8, 2013 8:06:05 GMT -5
I really don't care that Tanaka's strikeouts have dropped over time. Kuroda doesn't strike out a ton either but he is damned effective. Tanaka can goose it to 96 or so if needed reports say and he has excellent control. Apparently he does not pitch downhill and the FB is straight and hittable up in the zone as a result. Well, Jon Lester's cutter lost its bite when he delivered it less tall. Why couldn't Tanaka be changed the same way? I would love to have this guy.
As devastating as the splitter has proven to be with the Japanese pitchers, isn't it amazing that more American pitchers are not incorporating that pitch? With the Japanese pitchers, it seems a staple. Who but Tazawa and Koji throw it for the Sox? Looking at the repertoires of our minor league pitchers, nowhere do I recall seeing "he has a split". It's always 2-seemer, 4-seemer, curve, slider, change. Teams are always looking for that elusive, if temporary, edge trying to divine 'elemental truths' from seemingly inscrutable data. Doesn't the split appear to be one of those almost glaring areas that teams could exploit? Why isn't the split being taught more within our system?
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,312
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Post by radiohix on Nov 8, 2013 9:09:18 GMT -5
Buccholz throws a splitter too and Papelbon used to throw it too.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 8, 2013 10:23:18 GMT -5
Buccholz throws a splitter too and Papelbon used to throw it too. Well, Paps did throw something of a split that is true. I don't believe that Buch does. He has an outstanding curve and change. Still, there are seemingly darned few that have that pitch in the ML compared to Japan.
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Post by jmei on Nov 8, 2013 10:27:24 GMT -5
I think it's pretty simple-- the splitter isn't taught as often to kids in little league or high school or college or the minors because fewer coaches have experience with it. Tough to teach what you don't know.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 8, 2013 10:59:20 GMT -5
Let's see. Baseball originated 150 years ago or so in America and we don't often teach the splitter because our coaches don't know how, what or why..... I'd say it was about time to remedy this issue and catch up to Japan.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 8, 2013 15:50:20 GMT -5
I know its rough that the US is so far behind Japan with regards to all things baseball. If all the top US players played in the WBC it really wouldn't be much of a contest.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 8, 2013 16:16:21 GMT -5
I know its rough that the US is so far behind Japan with regards to all things baseball. If all the top US players played in the WBC it really wouldn't be much of a contest. Boy, you sound a bit like Joe Tacopina with that kind of conclusion from what I said. Japan seemingly does the split better than we do. Seemingly they teach the pitch more than we do. It's not an insult to our national pride.
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 8, 2013 17:21:04 GMT -5
@jeffpassan: Sources: Yankees have made Masahiro Tanaka a top priority, and they are the team to beat in the bidding. The latest: t.co/IRKKR9TkLJ
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Post by station13 on Nov 8, 2013 18:43:30 GMT -5
Isn't the system different now? he can choose from the top 3 bidders to negotiate with.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 8, 2013 18:58:43 GMT -5
I know its rough that the US is so far behind Japan with regards to all things baseball. If all the top US players played in the WBC it really wouldn't be much of a contest. God bless America, I know how you feel dude, it's impossible that any other country has any other advantage over the americans in anything baseball related because you're that blessed.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Nov 8, 2013 18:59:31 GMT -5
Isn't the system different now? he can choose from the top 3 bidders to negotiate with. I heard that the new rule isn't much different from the old one. Still player can't choose one from several bidders. Top bidder will get him. NPB players don't like the new rule because there is no opportunity to choose.
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Post by sammo420 on Nov 8, 2013 19:20:04 GMT -5
Isn't the system different now? he can choose from the top 3 bidders to negotiate with. I heard that the new rule isn't much different from the old one. Still player can't choose one from several bidders. Top bidder will get him. NPB players don't like the new rule because there is no opportunity to choose. Somewhere on this site (most likely in this thread) it states that he can choose from the top three teams with the highest posting fees. After Tanaka chooses from those three he negotiates with that team alone.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 8, 2013 23:07:48 GMT -5
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 9, 2013 0:05:52 GMT -5
@jeffpassan: Sources: Yankees have made Masahiro Tanaka a top priority, and they are the team to beat in the bidding. The latest: t.co/IRKKR9TkLJIt's all well and good that the Yankees say they're interested in these guys and they are "top priority", but the issue remains that it's nearly impossible for them to add anything more than Cano of the high priced guys, stay under the tax, and field an even somewhat competitive team. Now maybe they go sign Cano, Beltran, and Tanaka, and then field replacement level guys everywhere else and in their rotation. I think many teams in the league would be thrilled if the MFY dug the club into an even deeper and more difficult hole to get out of and still remained at best a mediocre team, which is what they'll be even with Tanaka and one other high priced guy. Tack on the fact that they have no clue how much of the season A-rod will be suspended and thus how much room under the tax that clears, and they really aren't in any sort of a position to make multiple major moves
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Post by bluechip on Nov 9, 2013 1:19:29 GMT -5
@jeffpassan: Sources: Yankees have made Masahiro Tanaka a top priority, and they are the team to beat in the bidding. The latest: t.co/IRKKR9TkLJIt's all well and good that the Yankees say they're interested in these guys and they are "top priority", but the issue remains that it's nearly impossible for them to add anything more than Cano of the high priced guys, stay under the tax, and field an even somewhat competitive team. Now maybe they go sign Cano, Beltran, and Tanaka, and then field replacement level guys everywhere else and in their rotation. I think many teams in the league would be thrilled if the MFY dug the club into an even deeper and more difficult hole to get out of and still remained at best a mediocre team, which is what they'll be even with Tanaka and one other high priced guy. Tack on the fact that they have no clue how much of the season A-rod will be suspended and thus how much room under the tax that clears, and they really aren't in any sort of a position to make multiple major moves Yes. The Yankees at this point are not even certain whether they'll be on the hook for A-Rod in 2014. They're budget has to still be in flux.
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Post by taftreign on Nov 9, 2013 2:26:49 GMT -5
www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/2013-payroll-salaries.shtmlWell using Baseball-reference.coms estimates when including arbitration figures the yankees are at 119.9 mil. That allows approximately 70 mil to spend. If they find out about ARods suspension occurring they can save an additional 15 to 25 mil to spend. IMO Arod gets a 100 game suspension (saves about 15 mil more) and the MFYs potentially could add: 2B Cano at 25 mil SP Kuroda at 15 mil C Pierzynski at 6 mil OF Beltran at 14 mil SP Tanaka at 12 mil (expect a contract that escalates each year in value) 3B Uribe at 6 mil RP Mujica at 6 mil Total 84 mil This is just an estimate of current payroll and may be inaccurate but if Arod is suspended you could see some of the potential players they may be able to afford. With many on contracts of two years or less. They also could keep Canos 2014 salary around 20 mil and back load it to try and sign an additional back end starter like Hammel or Feldman. All this speculation to say the Yankees have money to spend even if they want to stay under the luxury tax.
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Post by jmei on Nov 9, 2013 10:05:08 GMT -5
Luxury tax is calculated with AAV, so back loading wouldn't work. But yes, the Yankees have a lot to spend.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 9, 2013 10:14:53 GMT -5
Wow! I never heard this mentioned while watching a zillion Sox games. Tanaka's split with the Japanese ball is maaahhhvelous!
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Post by sierram363 on Nov 9, 2013 12:01:49 GMT -5
www.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/alex-speier/2013/11/08/how-much-can-red-sox-spend-winter-2014-payrollI'm not sure why the Yankees would let it leak out that they were going to go all in on Tanaka. Big market teams like the Dodgers or Red Sox would just take that as a sign to place a higher bid. I don't think we'd be scared out of the bidding because of that story. According to WEEI we have about 32 million to spend this offseason. We will probably use most of that to sign Napoli, an outfielder (Beltran?), and a cheap catcher. I'm not sure if the rumors of trying to resign Drew for SS is true. If we can trade either or both Peavy (16 million) or Dempster (13 million), we can use their salaries to offset signing Tanaka (12 million?)(who is projected to be superior to either Peavy or Dempster). He's also much younger. The posting fee wouldn't count towards the cap. Right now, I'd rather have Tanaka than either Dempster or Peavy for next year.
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Post by okin15 on Nov 9, 2013 13:53:43 GMT -5
I heard that the new rule isn't much different from the old one. Still player can't choose one from several bidders. Top bidder will get him. NPB players don't like the new rule because there is no opportunity to choose. Somewhere on this site (most likely in this thread) it states that he can choose from the top three teams with the highest posting fees. After Tanaka chooses from those three he negotiates with that team alone. The rule has not officially changed yet. Should get taken care of at the winter meetings. There is definitely something in the works to lower the amount the American teams are giving directly to the Japanese teams, and at the same time to make it seem (though probably not be) more equitable to the Japanese players.
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Post by sammo420 on Nov 9, 2013 14:38:43 GMT -5
Two things...
1. Kurodo is going back to Japan so he doesn't factor into the Yankees plans unless he has a change of heart which I don't see why he would.
2. Isn't there a difference between a splitter and fork ball? Doesn't a fork ball have a deeper grip with more movement but as such is harder to control? I'm going off of memory here from when Jose Contreras first came over and splitter was referred to as more of fork ball then the above explanation was given.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 9, 2013 20:02:52 GMT -5
They are indeed different pitches. The splitter is faster and tumbles forward. The forkball is slower and has nearly no spin. The splitter is thought of as a variant of the fastball, whereas the forkball is more of an offspeed pitch. And as you mention, the forkball is jammed deeper into the pitcher's fingers.
(Unnecessary tangent: I used to mess around with a pitch in high school that we called the "spork", which would sometimes spin like a splitter and sometimes would be a forkball. I was a horrible pitcher and thus the spork only was thrown a handful of times in summer games. Didn't help that I'd laugh hysterically when the catcher would call for it.)
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 9, 2013 20:24:00 GMT -5
I think you might be thinking of the type of forkball that Joe nelson threw recently, rather than the type Roger Craig and his acolytes, and some other people like Bruce Sutter threw perhaps?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 9, 2013 20:55:04 GMT -5
(Unnecessary tangent: I used to mess around with a pitch in high school that we called the "spork", which would sometimes spin like a splitter and sometimes would be a forkball. I was a horrible pitcher and thus the spork only was thrown a handful of times in summer games. Didn't help that I'd laugh hysterically when the catcher would call for it.) Man, if any pitcher wants to get a ton of articles written about him during the second week of spring training, I'd highly suggest showing up to camp with a "sporkball".
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Post by sammo420 on Nov 9, 2013 23:31:45 GMT -5
I think you might be thinking of the type of forkball that Joe nelson threw recently, rather than the type Roger Craig and his acolytes, and some other people like Bruce Sutter threw perhaps? I think you and I are on the same wavelength or close to it. Out of curiosity what did you consider the Oki Doki? Was that a third pitch in this family or just a regular forkball?
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