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Masahiro Tanaka (1/22 update: to NYY for 7/$155m)
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Post by mainesox on Nov 9, 2013 23:43:16 GMT -5
I think you might be thinking of the type of forkball that Joe nelson threw recently, rather than the type Roger Craig and his acolytes, and some other people like Bruce Sutter threw perhaps? I think you and I are on the same the same wavelength or close to it. Out of curiosity what did you consider the Oki Doki? Was that a third pitch in this family or just a regular forkball? Wasn't the Oki Doki referring to his curveball?
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Post by jmei on Nov 10, 2013 0:39:03 GMT -5
The "Okie-Dokie" was Okajima's split-changeup, which was gripped like a split-fingered fastball but had much lower velocity like a changeup.
Honestly, the whole taxonomy of pitches is pretty arbitrary, and with a dose of mysticism mixed it. Pitchers can call it whatever they want-- I'm just interested in the movement and the velocity (and the release point, I suppose).
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 10, 2013 11:26:40 GMT -5
Nelson called his a "Vulcan change", but the ball was jammed really far back between middle fingers all the way back and it wasn't thrown real hard if can recall correctly, whether by accident, or on purpose to get the best drop.
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Post by okin15 on Nov 11, 2013 11:26:40 GMT -5
I mean, a changeup is just a pitch that looks like a fastball in spin and arm motion, but by varying the way it's held, has less velocity, and therefore drops more, and/or hitters get out in front of it.
A split finger does this by not using the index and middle fingers to push the ball as much, because they're split of to the side rather than behind the ball. A circle change is really thrown with digits 3, 4 and 5. A 3-fingered change is thrown mostly with the middle finger, and stabilized with #'s 2 and 4.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 11, 2013 13:04:20 GMT -5
Hi Okin, I don't know best how to describe it anymore. Some of you might remember that nelson's would bee line dive straight down after looking straight. It wasn't like Koji's, Taz's etc. Here is the actual wikapedia link on the pitch, including guys that threw it i didn't even know, like Roy oswalt, Gagne and others: wikapediaHere is another link from several years back showing Nelson gripping the ball in the Boston herald: Boston Herald
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Post by Guidas on Nov 11, 2013 13:54:36 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 11, 2013 18:59:18 GMT -5
Ken Davidoff ?@kendavidoff 1m To clarify on Japanese posting, the top bidding team wins exclusive negotiating rights, but has to pay only the average of the top 2 bids.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 11, 2013 21:38:42 GMT -5
Nelson called his a "Vulcan change", but the ball was jammed really far back between middle fingers all the way back and it wasn't thrown real hard if can recall correctly, whether by accident, or on purpose to get the best drop. Yeah, and note that it was between his MIDDLE FINGERS, as in his middle and ring finger. I can't remember any other pitcher throwing this. A lot of pitchers have thrown something like it, using the middle fingers like you would on a fastball, as their changeup, but not a splitter version of that like he did. Completely different pitch.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 11, 2013 22:09:43 GMT -5
Hey Chris,
Only remembered it had splitter like hand grip. as in was gripped funky and dove straight down when he got maximum bite/effect out of the pitch, nothing else by all the posts.
Remembered the name of his pitch all along.. Rays announcer DeWayne Staats harped on it that entire season he was with them.. It REALLY got irritating hearing him mention it numerous times every time nelson pitched, though it was sweet watching it dive down.
Nelson was a 1 pitch pitcher and that was it, eventually got him to the league and hitters figured out finally to look for it and let it go.
Those links posted posted mention others guys throwing Chris, but I honestly didn't know of any other than Nelson.
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 14, 2013 12:53:04 GMT -5
Jon Heyman ?@jonheymancbs 1m Rival gm on tanaka: "I'd be shocked if it isn't the yankees."
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Post by Guidas on Nov 14, 2013 13:31:28 GMT -5
Then maybe "Rival gm" he gonna be shocked:
@ken_Rosenthal Owner: "Serious reservations" among clubs about posting process. Possible no agreement is reached, which means no Tanaka this off-season.
As much as I want this guy on the Sox, I am pulling for this. Anything that weakens the Yankees' off-season plan is fantastic.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 14, 2013 13:35:57 GMT -5
Then maybe "Rival gm" he gonna be shocked: @ken_Rosenthal Owner: "Serious reservations" among clubs about posting process. Possible no agreement is reached, which means no Tanaka this off-season. As much as I want this guy on the Sox, I am pulling for this. Anything that weakens the Yankees' off-season plan is fantastic. I agree. If it comes to pass that Tanaka isn't available this offseason then it hurts the Yankees and it's more possible that the Sox might in the winter of 2014-2015 decide that they need Tanaka and go after him. I highly doubt the Sox would have gone after Tanaka this offseason.
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Post by taftreign on Nov 14, 2013 13:38:52 GMT -5
Was about to post this as well. Next offseason would lay out much better for the Sox and Tanaka. No more Dempster. Lackey on a significant discount. Peavy could easily be traded. Potentially no Ortiz but I suspect we see a short term resign from him instead of a retire. Add a few super young pre-arb arms and Boston could very well be in a better position than the Yankees.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2013 14:31:57 GMT -5
it also gives another year for the Sox and anyone else to see if his K rate continues to fall and if there are any adverse affects. guy scares me more than he excites me at this point.
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Post by Guidas on Nov 14, 2013 15:29:01 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 14, 2013 15:30:14 GMT -5
SO FA OR posting process?
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Post by Guidas on Nov 14, 2013 15:32:43 GMT -5
From the article it sounds like it will only be Japanese players who put in 9 years of service time and become free agents in their system can play in MLB, unless they were undrafted like Tazawa.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 14, 2013 15:38:04 GMT -5
Good link. Thanks. Given his numbers and the handful of clips on the site, he looks like he's a serious option. As we've seen with other very effective pitchers who've come out of Japan, the key is contrast not velocity. He's got a variety of pitches all seemingly thrown from the same general motion. I'm not a scout and certainly no expert at this sort of evaluation, but what I see here looks quite good. I'm not sure I understand why the Japanese leagues lead to such high pitch counts, why they use their aces that way. That has to be a concern. Easy to understand, however, why NY would be hot on his trail.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 14, 2013 15:57:34 GMT -5
The Yankees not getting Tanaka would, for me, be only two steps below the Sox winning the Series. Let A-rod come back in 2015 and load down that payroll. I am concerned that they appear to be incredibly interested in signing McCann & Beltran...which with Cano, Soriano and Tex would again make them offensively formidable.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 14, 2013 16:07:48 GMT -5
The Yankees not getting Tanaka would, for me, be only two steps below the Sox winning the Series. Let A-rod come back in 2015 and load down that payroll. I am concerned that they appear to be incredibly interested in signing McCann & Beltran...which with Cano, Soriano and Tex would again make them offensively formidable. Beltran and McCann wont come cheap. They can go ahead and overpay in years/$$$ and end up in the same situation they are in now in a year or two…. Both will be DH's down the line and so will A-rod
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Post by Guidas on Nov 14, 2013 16:34:43 GMT -5
The Yankees not getting Tanaka would, for me, be only two steps below the Sox winning the Series. Let A-rod come back in 2015 and load down that payroll. I am concerned that they appear to be incredibly interested in signing McCann & Beltran...which with Cano, Soriano and Tex would again make them offensively formidable. Seriously, I've read as much as I can about this and I honestly believe that, if they are sticking to the CBA - which is a binding contract - the most baseball can legitimately give him is 50 games, if that, since the "evidence" is sketchy and paid for, and their primary witness was also reimbursed for providing said evidence, is under financial duress, and has been cited for impersonating a physician in Florida (not sure this is a felony in Florida - but taken together it's a hell of one-liner). In fact, I'm not even sure this would stand up in a court of law as a 50 game suspension. I think this is what Arod is banking on right now, too. I am SO praying he wins the case, gets 0 games and Bud Selig and MLB get a HUGE black eye for thinking they can subvert anyone's rights to due process, even if that anyone is a human turd like ARod (a.k.a. "True Yankee").
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Post by hammerhead on Nov 14, 2013 16:35:31 GMT -5
I hope they sign McCann... That looks to be another albatross deal, where the player becomes a DH, yet they already have three of them in the infield.
The yankees have been playing for players decline for years.
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 14, 2013 17:27:56 GMT -5
The Yankees not getting Tanaka would, for me, be only two steps below the Sox winning the Series. Let A-rod come back in 2015 and load down that payroll. I am concerned that they appear to be incredibly interested in signing McCann & Beltran...which with Cano, Soriano and Tex would again make them offensively formidable. Seriously, I've read as much as I can about this and I honestly believe that, if they are sticking to the CBA - which is a binding contract - the most baseball can legitimately give him is 50 games, if that, since the "evidence" is sketchy and paid for, and their primary witness was also reimbursed for providing said evidence, is under financial duress, and has been cited for impersonating a physician in Florida (not sure this is a felony in Florida - but taken together it's a hell of one-liner). In fact, I'm not even sure this would stand up in a court of law as a 50 game suspension. I think this is what Arod is banking on right now, too. I am SO praying he wins the case, gets 0 games and Bud Selig and MLB get a HUGE black eye for thinking they can subvert anyone's rights to due process, even if that anyone is a human turd like ARod (a.k.a. "True Yankee"). Well, my mention of A-rod was not the suspension basis but his coming back in 2015 at 25M or so. But since you brought it up, I believe that there is ample authority to go higher than 50 games. I don't think MLB is bound by "well there was no positive test" routine when we all know that there was a positive in 2003 and now, it seems in 2006. Could he have been suspended either of those times under the CBA? It appears not. There also appears that he used for 3 later years according to Biogenesis records. But, (and I would invite some of the lawyers here who may have studied baseball's grounds/authority to comment), I have to believe that baseball has other legal basis......I am not necessarily talking about the best interests of baseball clause either. Talk about due process and your adherence to it (me too) but what if a defendant tries to subvert prosecution by paying off or bumping off witnesses. Should there not be punishment for that effort???
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2013 17:41:06 GMT -5
We all want Arod to play so the Yankees have the contract on book. I agree with those who say he shouldn't be suspended for more then 50 games tho. Previous failed tests don't matter if they were during the period where they aren't supposed to.
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Post by okin15 on Nov 14, 2013 18:18:44 GMT -5
We all want Arod to play so the Yankees have the contract on book. I agree with those who say he shouldn't be suspended for more then 50 games tho. Previous failed tests don't matter if they were during the period where they aren't supposed to. Agree. If baseball wants stricter rules, then it should make the rules stricter. And it should. (So should the NFL probably, but that's a different discussion). On Tanaka, before the posting process, foreign players were able to circumvent the 9-year rules, see Nomo, Irabu and Soriano. It's very possible this will happen again, and that Tanaka will end up in the US in 2014, but at least the Yankees will have to pay full price, and that full price will go towards their CBT limit.
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