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2013 Offseason non-Sox MLB Discussion
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 14, 2013 17:00:40 GMT -5
Marlins Park is going to cost the county/city something like $2 billion by the time it's officially paid off after interest etc. There's not even much research that shows a new stadium adds much value after the first few years, and even less that shows that a new stadium in a location suddenly brings an influx of $ to the area. The reasoning gets used over and over again because there's no real oversight, and things like the Braves situation happen without the tax payers even voting on it. The owners make out like bandits every single time, even though they're usually the ones who are already raking in the $
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 14, 2013 17:24:19 GMT -5
Well, it didn't quite work that way in Boston, for whatever reason. I'm sure the city makes it comfortable for the team to locate in Fenway, but ownership didn't get that new stadium they originally wanted. Seems to have worked out well for both sides. I'm not sure what afflicts so many commissions in other locales that they allow this sort of theft to go on and on.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2013 17:44:28 GMT -5
It's pretty simple. The general public pays no attention to what's going on and would much rather bitch then act. Those politicians they will hate were all voted in by the public and will mostly all get re-elected. No consequences.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Nov 14, 2013 18:06:04 GMT -5
I live in Pa. We got soaked by Philly and Pittsburgh. Two football and two baseball stadiums. We did cut funding for higher education last year to make up for it. And, they wonder why the yutes leave Pennsylvania.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 14, 2013 19:59:18 GMT -5
Marlins Park is going to cost the county/city something like $2 billion by the time it's officially paid off after interest etc. There's not even much research that shows a new stadium adds much value after the first few years, and even less that shows that a new stadium in a location suddenly brings an influx of $ to the area. The reasoning gets used over and over again because there's no real oversight, and things like the Braves situation happen without the tax payers even voting on it. The owners make out like bandits every single time, even though they're usually the ones who are already raking in the $ Funny part about the Fish new stadium? Like a dozen of the Miami/Dade county officials are already under indictment for fraud, taking bribes for that stadium, including the Mayor. Serious jail time coming for some of those officials with tax payers holding the bag. I want to see it go back to owners building the stadiums and footing the bill. Tax payers are ALWAYS getting the short end. How few go to games anyway? It's not like most can watch the games for free, as they are broadcast on cable channels that cost dough. MLB owners are the ones making the profits from various sources, pay their own way, or move. Selig is dead wrong once again asking for tax payer paid for stadiums and a parade of Miami high ranking, under indictment officials are once again poster childs for how wrong he is on yet another of his stances.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 14, 2013 23:58:21 GMT -5
Marlins Park is going to cost the county/city something like $2 billion by the time it's officially paid off after interest etc. There's not even much research that shows a new stadium adds much value after the first few years, and even less that shows that a new stadium in a location suddenly brings an influx of $ to the area. The reasoning gets used over and over again because there's no real oversight, and things like the Braves situation happen without the tax payers even voting on it. The owners make out like bandits every single time, even though they're usually the ones who are already raking in the $ Funny part about the Fish new stadium? Like a dozen of the Miami/Dade county officials are already under indictment for fraud, taking bribes for that stadium, including the Mayor. Serious jail time coming for some of those officials with tax payers holding the bag. I want to see it go back to owners building the stadiums and footing the bill. Tax payers are ALWAYS getting the short end. How few go to games anyway? It's not like most can watch the games for free, as they are broadcast on cable channels that cost dough. MLB owners are the ones making the profits from various sources, pay their own way, or move. Selig is dead wrong once again asking for tax payer paid for stadiums and a parade of Miami high ranking, under indictment officials are once again poster childs for how wrong he is on yet another of his stances. This. I was going to mention it but decided to let it pass since I couldn't find an article talking about it. Just about everyone involved in pushing the approval through has either been or is under suspicion of fraud/corruption. Was at the University of Miami during the entire process and from the get go everyone knew it would be a disaster and that it was pushed through with corruption
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 15, 2013 2:04:19 GMT -5
Oh yeah, it was major news this far North (300 miles) of Miami and brought back memories of St. Petersburg blowing hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars 20 years ago for the Thunderdone (the old name) when the DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A TEAM, much less the promise of one yet! People in Pinellas county were up in arms over that fiasco and being saddled with bond debt.
It's county/municipality leaders and their holier than thou mentality blowing dollars on crazy things like stadiums that is my biggest gripe with the sport. The salaries could easily come down via FA spending and spare taxpayers this misery, especially the ones who are least able to pay for the extra tax and those who could care less about the sport, of which we know there are many.
The argument will always be economic impact, but there are 2 sides to that as well.
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Post by elguapo on Nov 15, 2013 9:06:16 GMT -5
It's county/municipality leaders and their ....egos, ignorance, and lack of spine. Should a well-heeled organization (corporation, sports team, even a non-profit or government entity) suggest to such a politician that their area could be left behind by progress unless they support [X] they'll trip over themselves in a panic to give up whatever is desired.
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Post by Guidas on Nov 15, 2013 11:31:34 GMT -5
espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9977389/major-league-baseball-purchase-biogenesis-documents-impeded-florida-department-health-investigation-sources-sayI'm not a lawyer, I just play one in my Mom's basement. Like Bud Selig, apparently. Obstruction of justice anyone? This just gets more skeevy every day. Basically MLB: bought and perhaps acquired stolen evidence, including possibly medical records, which are subject to HIPPA laws and in the process impeded an investigation by a regulatory agency of the state of Florida. They also paid for testimony, threatened and coerced potential witnesses, and imposed penalties that are not sanctioned by the collective bargaining agreement they signed. "Oh yeah! Well he took a substance we banned and then beat the test (we think!)!" This just gets better and better.
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Post by taftreign on Nov 15, 2013 12:14:29 GMT -5
Clearly the ARod case is going to continue to be news worthy. MLB was definitely desperate and ultimately I believe it's going to cost them. However I'm not sure the HIPPA laws would be an issue since Bosch wasn't licensed to practice Medicine.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 15, 2013 12:27:01 GMT -5
As I understand, disclosure of information by a fake doctor is still a HIPAA violation. So the illegal procurement of documents for a fake doctor would be under the same protection, I'm guessing. So the story here is that MLB stole documents from a fake doctor in order to give A-Rod a punishment outside the bounds of their own CBA. But nah, they aren't railroading him. ______________________________________________________ On a completely different note, the Nationals have given old friend Mauro Gomez his release waivers, and according to this article he is working out a deal with the Hanshin Tigers. www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/wp/2013/11/14/nationals-request-release-waivers-for-infielder-mauro-gomez/Japan is probably a great fit for his game.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 15, 2013 21:01:21 GMT -5
Fake Dr, Fake stats.. who really cares now James? The yankees deserve to pay Rodriquez, or how I see it. My feeling is hope the bums (Yankees) only can wrangle a miniscule suspension out of it in the end, like 50 games so they can't use all that moola they were counting on. Also? Hope they spend all that money real fast and it takes another month or 2 before this stuff with Rodriquez all ends and that sticks them way over 189 million yet again. Divine justice, Hammer of Thor, share the wealth, whatever one wants to call it.. I prefer.. Stick it to the Yanks at any cost.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 16, 2013 10:38:44 GMT -5
Everything about this deal is wrong. EVERYTHING. www.sportsonearth.com/article/63874390/The corporate welfare, the awful suburban sprawl, the coded racism... it's our Ark B, except unfortunately I don't think it'll be launched into the void of space anytime soon.
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Post by amfox1 on Nov 16, 2013 11:31:37 GMT -5
Former PawSox closer Anthony Carter to sign a minor league deal with SD, with an invite to ST, per the Twitterverse.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 16, 2013 12:24:05 GMT -5
Everything about this deal is wrong. EVERYTHING. www.sportsonearth.com/article/63874390/The corporate welfare, the awful suburban sprawl, the coded racism... it's our Ark B, except unfortunately I don't think it'll be launched into the void of space anytime soon. Get the entire picture please. Atlanta's (city population) has racked up the most personal debt of any in the entire nation, not many are going to be spending 15-100+ on baseball game tickets. Here is a story from USNews Money that shows that very same fact: USNews
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Post by brianthetaoist on Nov 16, 2013 13:45:23 GMT -5
Get the entire picture please. Atlanta's (city population) has racked up the most personal debt of any in the entire nation, not many are going to be spending 15-100+ on baseball game tickets. Here is a story from USNews Money that shows that very same fact: USNewsThis is wrong on just about any level. It is factually wrong - Atlanta is behind Seattle, Denver, Dallas, and Phoenix on level of personal debt - and it's conceptually wrong as well. Aggregate levels of debt are often *higher* where incomes are higher; you'll notice Seattle at #1, for instance. Atlanta's not the richest city in the country, but there's nothing particularly wrong with its economy. If Detroit can do fine with a stadium in the city, so can Atlanta. This has nothing to do with distribution of fans or any red herrings like "debt level" … this is about an ownership group that somehow convinced a suburban community to EVISCERATE its tax base for decades to come just to boost the profits of a privately-held corporation. And after the schools and services get hollowed out, and the community goes into decline, then the Braves will look to some other community to move into and suck dry. It's awful, and everyone connected to it should be ashamed of themselves.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 16, 2013 13:49:54 GMT -5
Everything about this deal is wrong. EVERYTHING. www.sportsonearth.com/article/63874390/The corporate welfare, the awful suburban sprawl, the coded racism... it's our Ark B, except unfortunately I don't think it'll be launched into the void of space anytime soon. Get the entire picture please. Atlanta's (city population) has racked up the most personal debt of any in the entire nation, not many are going to be spending 15-100+ on baseball game tickets.Here is a story from USNews Money that shows that very same fact: USNewsFirst off they're only first in personal credit card debt, and I'm pretty sure you're allowed to buy Braves tickets with a credit card. What does this have to do with anything?
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 16, 2013 15:36:47 GMT -5
Before either of you 2 accuse me of next being a racist (which am not and never have been) would just like to ask what is the ratio of W/B fans anyone has ever noticed at ANY ballpark?
I would be more than willing to go back as far as you like, any time over the last 35-40 years will do. TV games for Atlanta and the Cubs are easy, they were widely shown over cable for years and watched them for years.. There was nowhere near equal mix.
Is it right? Of course not, some people just like different sports and the ownership of the Braves targeted their market.
My issue is with who pays for the stadiums in the 1st place and it's the ENTIRE taxpayer base period.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 17, 2013 13:09:12 GMT -5
Before either of you 2 accuse me of next being a racist (which am not and never have been) would just like to ask what is the ratio of W/B fans anyone has ever noticed at ANY ballpark? I would be more than willing to go back as far as you like, any time over the last 35-40 years will do. TV games for Atlanta and the Cubs are easy, they were widely shown over cable for years and watched them for years.. There was nowhere near equal mix. Is it right? Of course not, some people just like different sports and the ownership of the Braves targeted their market. My issue is with who pays for the stadiums in the 1st place and it's the ENTIRE taxpayer base period. If black people don't want to attend Braves games, then I'm not sure what all the concern is about: www.ajc.com/weblogs/jay-bookman/2013/nov/12/cobb-gop-chairman-concerned-about-those-people-com/It's totally insane that anyone would specifically require that their new ballpark NOT be serviced by light rail. Either these people really really love sitting traffic jams or they're trying to keep, uhhh... "urban" types out of their backyard.
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Post by jmei on Nov 17, 2013 13:16:30 GMT -5
Before either of you 2 accuse me of next being a racist (which am not and never have been) would just like to ask what is the ratio of W/B fans anyone has ever noticed at ANY ballpark? I would be more than willing to go back as far as you like, any time over the last 35-40 years will do. TV games for Atlanta and the Cubs are easy, they were widely shown over cable for years and watched them for years.. There was nowhere near equal mix. Is it right? Of course not, some people just like different sports and the ownership of the Braves targeted their market. My issue is with who pays for the stadiums in the 1st place and it's the ENTIRE taxpayer base period. I'm not sure what your point is exactly. Moving the park to the suburbs does not actually improve commute times due to the lack of public transportation. Cobb County is already a huge mess during rush hour-- this will make it even worse. It's like if the Red Sox ownership moved Fenway to Lexington but didn't build any new commuting infrastructure.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 17, 2013 13:39:23 GMT -5
Before either of you 2 accuse me of next being a racist (which am not and never have been) would just like to ask what is the ratio of W/B fans anyone has ever noticed at ANY ballpark? I would be more than willing to go back as far as you like, any time over the last 35-40 years will do. TV games for Atlanta and the Cubs are easy, they were widely shown over cable for years and watched them for years.. There was nowhere near equal mix. Is it right? Of course not, some people just like different sports and the ownership of the Braves targeted their market. My issue is with who pays for the stadiums in the 1st place and it's the ENTIRE taxpayer base period. I'm not sure what your point is exactly. Moving the park to the suburbs does not actually improve commute times due to the lack of public transportation. Cobb County is already a huge mess during rush hour-- this will make it even worse. It's like if the Red Sox ownership moved Fenway to Lexington but didn't build any new commuting infrastructure. Was going on memory in a way from drive time to the old Fulton county stadium that I remember from.. 1977? Maybe it was 1976 on a 7/4 game when they played the Pirates and it was Candy-Man vs Niekro of all people slated to go against each other. I remember well how much of a snarled mess the traffic was that day, even though it was nearly 30Y ago and how long it took getting into the stadium, parked. It was sold out at a time the Braves had poor attendance.
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Post by mattpicard on Nov 17, 2013 13:52:52 GMT -5
From Mr. Cafardo:He's a solid defensive third baseman who switch-hits and would be owned around $10 million in 2014 before entering free agency. Steamer projects him to throw up a .254/.344/.400 line with a 112 wRC+ in 2014, but it's worth noting he has a .818 OPS away from Petco, versus a .707 mark at home. For a one-year rental and likely #6-type hitter, you'd need to be wary of giving up anything foolish, but certainly someone the Sox should explore with WMB being the only third-base option at the moment.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 17, 2013 14:10:22 GMT -5
Before either of you 2 accuse me of next being a racist (which am not and never have been) would just like to ask what is the ratio of W/B fans anyone has ever noticed at ANY ballpark? I would be more than willing to go back as far as you like, any time over the last 35-40 years will do. TV games for Atlanta and the Cubs are easy, they were widely shown over cable for years and watched them for years.. There was nowhere near equal mix. Is it right? Of course not, some people just like different sports and the ownership of the Braves targeted their market. My issue is with who pays for the stadiums in the 1st place and it's the ENTIRE taxpayer base period. I'm not sure what your point is exactly. Moving the park to the suburbs does not actually improve commute times due to the lack of public transportation. Cobb County is already a huge mess during rush hour-- this will make it even worse. It's like if the Red Sox ownership moved Fenway to Lexington but didn't build any new commuting infrastructure. The Times ran a story today about Atlanta and the changing demographics. The city is reworking itself all the time and it's probably not the place a lot of us picture, these days. I remember it from over 30 years ago and I can surely get rid of that image. The story mentions, in passing, that the traffic is a mess, and that the transportation options aren't very good. More interesting to me is that there isn't one word about the cost to taxpayers, and that should be at least up for discussion. And for all the talk of a vision for more urbanized and liveable communities, there's little about the sprawl that makes constant auto travel a requirement. What's wrong with this picture?
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Post by jdb on Nov 17, 2013 17:06:15 GMT -5
From Mr. Cafardo:He's a solid defensive third baseman who switch-hits and would be owned around $10 million in 2014 before entering free agency. Steamer projects him to throw up a .254/.344/.400 line with a 112 wRC+ in 2014, but it's worth noting he has a .818 OPS away from Petco, versus a .707 mark at home. For a one-year rental and likely #6-type hitter, you'd need to be wary of giving up anything foolish, but certainly someone the Sox should explore with WMB being the only third-base option at the moment. I'd think he would be a fit and would be for it if it wasn't outrageous. He had some injuries and did put up a .280/.371/.458 after the break last year. His D would help the I/F considering Xander would be at SS and we really don't know what to expect over a full season.
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Post by jmei on Nov 17, 2013 17:28:34 GMT -5
I have a feeling Headley's going to be worth more to a team who has a worse incumbent third baseman than Will Middlebrooks-- say, the Yankees, the Indians, and maybe the Dodgers and Angels. I'd be uncomfortable giving up more than, say, Ranaudo for him, and even that might be too much considering how much Headley is going to make next year.
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