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What would it take for you to trade Mookie?
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Post by jmei on May 2, 2014 8:27:22 GMT -5
Mookie looks blocked at his natural position (2B), which naturally leads to some trade speculation. What do you think his trade value is? What realistically-available players would it take for you to be willing to move him?
Here's my tentative list (note: I tried to limit this to players who I think might be available sometime this year or during the offseason. There are obviously a ton of other players that I'd be tempted to move him for who are unavailable):
Giancarlo Stanton Jose Bautista Carloz Gonzalez Alex Gordon David Price Johnny Cueto Cliff Lee Cole Hamels
...and that's probably it.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 2, 2014 10:19:17 GMT -5
It's hard to answer because it depends more about what else has to go with him. For example, I brought up Price and would deal Mookie for him, but if you have to add a couple other top 10/15 prospects it drastically changes things.
I'm a Gordon fan but Mookie is too much for him. He's the odd player who I think is both under and over rated depending where you fall on him. People who like him tend to over- rate him to compensate for the many who think he's a bust. I think he's more last years guy then the 50 or so doubles guy from 2012.
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Post by jmei on May 2, 2014 10:59:43 GMT -5
Yeah, but even last year's version of Alex Gordon was worth 3.4 fWAR or 3.9 rWAR due to his excellent defense. He's signed to an affordable contract (14:$10M, 15:$12.5M, 16:$12.5M player option) and would fit in well in Fenway (he'd pepper the Monster with doubles). But I don't think Gordon is really available, and I can understand hesitating to trade an elite prospect for a player who provides a lot of his value through defense and durability.
Here's my logic for the above list: if Mookie is a top 30ish prospect in all of baseball (which is beginning to be the consensus, I think), there's a very, very small pool of players that you'd be willing to move him for. You have to get a player in return who offers All-Star-level production, more than one year of team control, and a below-market contract. There aren't a lot of guys who fit that description that another team would want to move.
I'm in no rush to trade him, but I'll also note that if an elite player along those lines does become available this summer (with Price, Lee, and Stanton being the top three candidates) and the Red Sox are in contention and need that extra piece, there are few other teams who can and would be willing to offer a prospect of that caliber. A package consisting of something like Mookie, one of the Pawtucket pitchers, and a third piece (in the 16-30 tier?) should just about be enough to acquire any player who might realistically be available.
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Post by jdb on May 3, 2014 8:45:28 GMT -5
I'd take Gordon off that list. Can't really think of anyone else but I think I'd add Polonco from Pittsburg in a prospect for prospect trade. Granted Pittsburg seems set with Walker at 2B. If you can get that future RF or top line pitcher you have to listen but right now I'm thinking of him in LF and being one of the better leadoff hitters in the game.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on May 3, 2014 8:57:11 GMT -5
I'd take Gordon off that list. Can't really think of anyone else but I think I'd add Polonco from Pittsburg in a prospect for prospect trade. Granted Pittsburg seems set with Walker at 2B. If you can get that future RF or top line pitcher you have to listen but right now I'm thinking of him in LF and being one of the better leadoff hitters in the game. That's exactly where I see Mookie for us. We don't have a lead-off hitter in Boston. There aren't many good ones in MLB. And, he has a chance to be an outstanding one. Probably more value to us than what he could fetch in a trade. The spot I see us having trouble in a LH bat in RF. Don't see anybody in our system. Not sure what's available. We're pretty set with RH bats; Pedroia, Napoli, Xander, WMB and Mookie. JBJ is really the only good LH stick we have. And, his bat is a bit of a question mark. Though I'm fine with great defense, decent bat if he's hitting 7 or so like he is now. Papi can't play forever Cecchini and Marrero could be trade chips. But, we have to be concerned about Xander's defense and WMB. Have a feeling we might as well just run with the kids until things eventually shake out better. Have a better feel for their ceilings. I'm patient. That's why we follow soxprospects.com right?
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Post by jdb on May 3, 2014 9:19:04 GMT -5
Maybe Cecchini could handle RF or 1B going forward but I've said before I think Jason Heyward is the next FA name we go after (assuming he stays healthy and hits). Is a great RF, gets on base and has power. He'll also hit the market at 26 and I don't see Atlanta having the money to resign him.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 3, 2014 9:57:50 GMT -5
Cecchini is no right fielder, but he could potentially be a John Olerude type first baseman. Great D (we don't know this part but based on his in tangibles I'm sure he could learn it. - remember the ?s around Napoli), good average, high OBP and doubles power.
There are basically no such things as prospect for prospect trades unless they are both blocked or both need the vaunted "change of scenery" so we should leave those off the table for now.
I also think Stanton is off the table as that team is showing lots of promise and has some excitement building around it. The young OF like Yelich and Ozuna are looking good, Salty was a great add and the pitching is coming together. You can never put anything past that ownership, but tracing Stanton now would be a major error in judgement.
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Post by terriblehondo on May 3, 2014 11:14:30 GMT -5
Right now there is no way I would trade him. I see him as a legitimate lead off hitter There is every indication from the Sox that they feel he can move off of 2nd. From the clips I have seen of him I feel there is no doubt he can move off the position also. His scouting report states he has an average arm for short. Which easily plays in Left or Center. I have been and still am a big fan of JBJ in center since college and I want him to stay there but if Betts can play center JBJ has the arm to play right and that provides added flexibility.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on May 3, 2014 12:21:03 GMT -5
This is a cool thread. Probably Gordon. Definitely CarGo / Stanton. Maybe Joey Bats.
I'm not sure trading Mookie to the Rays is a good idea. A good young outfielder is a pretty big need on this team and I think pitching can be really volatile as we've seen and I'm not really sure that is a good idea either. Lee is pretty old.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on May 3, 2014 12:52:52 GMT -5
I don't see why we can't anticipate a Cechinni move to LF, assuming Middlebrooks pans out which I think happens. And Mookie in CF with Bradley in RF in Fenway. Throw Swihart in at catcher and there should be plenty of money to sign a stud DH and a stud 1st baseman in 2 years.
I think that OF has some speed and overall defensive ability, great OBP at a low cost. Cechinni played LF for USA baseball right? And he may be blocked and defensively challenged at 3rd. And his hitting approach is right up Boston's alley. Mookie can sub some in the infield also, adding a whole lot to team flexibility. Opening up the OF some to a power bat platoon type guy, slotting JBJ in CF quite often.
It's more doubles and triples power than I like ( rather than HR pop ) but Xander, Middlebrooks, our DH and 1st could well give us a lot of pop. Often 2-3 guys carry the power bats in most lineups anyway and I'll take the OBP we would potentially get from this lineup if we do actually acquire 2 stud power guys for 1st and DH.
If we have some young guys like this actually become studs, we get them in their prime and maybe form a juggernaut. It seems clear that Henry and his team is banking on some young guys emerging in just this sort of manner ( counting on 2-3 young all stars from present prospects ). He's done the math and he thinks this is a breakthrough approach considering all existing parameters in mlb.
Assuming this is true ( admittedly a huge assumption but can't we at least say they are counting on a youth movement to a large degree? ) I gotta say, I agree with this approach. Boston seems to me to be creating their own new approach, a new paradigm in how to deal with luxury tax issues, a lack of revenue sharing in 2016 for big market teams, fewer overslot signings, limits to international signings, huge cost escalation for free agent signings, teams locking up their star players before they get to free agency...etc. It's a complicated landscape but Boston seems to be traveling the road less traveled. And I think it's a good road to be on.
They can afford to have a long term approach and they are very well positioned for this. They appear to be taking a similar approach in developing their own starting pitching talent.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on May 3, 2014 12:58:19 GMT -5
For a trade, I'd consider any comparable young talent in a more targeted position for the Sox. For example, I'd take Kris Bryant right now, straight up. Obviously Polanco...etc. There are quite a few options which probably never happen admittedly but some prospect at a position we need help in more, or a power bat which is so much in demand. Springer? Others.
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Post by jmei on May 3, 2014 13:08:13 GMT -5
The problem with trying to trade for a "blocked" prospect is that the positions the Red Sox most need long-term talent (RF, LF, 1B, DH) are generally ones where you don't see a ton of blocked prospects. There aren't many top prospects who project to 1B/DH roles (those that do generally just aren't very good prospects-- see, e.g., C.J. Cron or Darin Ruf), and most teams have or can make room to accommodate a top corner outfield prospect.
Maybe the Cubs could be a match, as they have a ton of 1B/3B-type players (Rizzo (1B), Olt (3B), Baez (3B/SS), Bryant (3B/1B/RF), Candelario (3B), Vogelbach (1B/DH)). But that sort of illustrates my point-- they're not going to trade Baez or Bryant and can find room for them by moving them to 3B and RF, Rizzo will probably hold onto 1B, and none of their other guys comes close to approximating Betts' value.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on May 3, 2014 14:51:51 GMT -5
And with Mookie's small size he's just real tough to put in the same category as someone like Kris Bryant. Ergo, I think we are going to have to keep him. In whatever role we can create for him.
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Post by sportnik on May 3, 2014 21:33:23 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has raised the possibility "unblocking" Mookie by moving Pedroia. Dustin is on the wrong side of 30 and his power has been diminished over the past year. If the scouting reports are to be believed, Mookie has more tools and seems like a good bet to provide better production from 2015 - 2020. With Ellsbury moving to the Yanks, the Sox have lost the ability to manufacture runs in tight games (think game 4 in the Tampa Bay series) and Mookie's speed at the top of the order could remedy this.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 3, 2014 22:49:56 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has raised the possibility "unblocking" Mookie by moving Pedroia. Dustin is on the wrong side of 30 and his power has been diminished over the past year. If the scouting reports are to be believed, Mookie has more tools and seems like a good bet to provide better production from 2015 - 2020. With Ellsbury moving to the Yanks, the Sox have lost the ability to manufacture runs in tight games (think game 4 in the Tampa Bay series) and Mookie's speed at the top of the order could remedy this. You mean trade somebody who took a major hometown discount to sign with the Sox for the rest of his career? Can't imagine the Sox would do that. It certainly didn't work with Arroyo and the contract he signed wasn't as long and he wasn't as iconic as Pedroia is. Nomar was but his contract situation was a problem, unlike Pedroia. Pedroia is here for the long haul. The only way Betts gets 2b for the Sox is if Pedroia gets hurt. They're not dealing him. Betts has the flexibility to play other positions and most likely will with the Red Sox.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 4, 2014 0:15:52 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has raised the possibility "unblocking" Mookie by moving Pedroia. Dustin is on the wrong side of 30 and his power has been diminished over the past year. If the scouting reports are to be believed, Mookie has more tools and seems like a good bet to provide better production from 2015 - 2020. With Ellsbury moving to the Yanks, the Sox have lost the ability to manufacture runs in tight games (think game 4 in the Tampa Bay series) and Mookie's speed at the top of the order could remedy this. Excluding the games where he went 5/36 playing with the injured wrist, Pedroia is .330 / .413 / .451 this year. Reports of his decline may be premature.
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Post by mgoetze on May 4, 2014 13:08:17 GMT -5
And surely Pedroia has a no-trade clause in that contract. You could have a discussion but it would go something like this: we have Pedroia and Betts, and openings at 2B and LF. Which of them should play 2B and which should play LF?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 6, 2014 20:00:04 GMT -5
And surely Pedroia has a no-trade clause in that contract. You could have a discussion but it would go something like this: we have Pedroia and Betts, and openings at 2B and LF. Which of them should play 2B and which should play LF? Limited no-trade, so it's probably a list of teams he can't be traded to.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on May 8, 2014 12:55:13 GMT -5
Pedroia's contract makes him worth a lot in trade IMO. Its a very team friendly deal considering the deals most star players get. The question would be would we really want to trade the person known as the heart and soul of this team to make way for a prospect?
And let's try not to get ahead of ourselves with Mookie.
JBJ had a similar streak albeit in Salem in 2012. Nobody wanted to trade him then and now he's in several trade ideas.
Cecchini also murdered Salem last year and several people were calling him untouchable, and now he's in trades because he has legitimately question marks as to whether he'll be above average offensively at the next level.
It's way too soon to suggest trading Pedroia. If Mookie can hit in AAA like this, then it starts becoming a little more of a question. But Pedroia is still at least a 4 WAR player, and we can't sit here and just assume Mookie will be yet. I personally do think Mookie will be a stud 2B, but now is not the time to start considering trading Pedroia.
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Post by bsout2 on May 8, 2014 13:23:49 GMT -5
You can NOT trade Pedroia. It's that simple. Won't happen, can't happen, nor should it happen.
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Post by okin15 on May 16, 2014 13:49:20 GMT -5
i wouldn't trade mookie except for pitching. good young pitching
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Post by jimed14 on May 16, 2014 14:13:05 GMT -5
I'd trade him for Polanco.
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Post by taftreign on May 17, 2014 22:00:55 GMT -5
The problem with trying to trade for a "blocked" prospect is that the positions the Red Sox most need long-term talent (RF, LF, 1B, DH) are generally ones where you don't see a ton of blocked prospects. There aren't many top prospects who project to 1B/DH roles (those that do generally just aren't very good prospects-- see, e.g., C.J. Cron or Darin Ruf), and most teams have or can make room to accommodate a top corner outfield prospect. Maybe the Cubs could be a match, as they have a ton of 1B/3B-type players (Rizzo (1B), Olt (3B), Baez (3B/SS), Bryant (3B/1B/RF), Candelario (3B), Vogelbach (1B/DH)). But that sort of illustrates my point-- they're not going to trade Baez or Bryant and can find room for them by moving them to 3B and RF, Rizzo will probably hold onto 1B, and none of their other guys comes close to approximating Betts' value. The only blocked prospect that comes to mind is Joc Pederson of the Dodgers. There is no room in that outfield right now. That becomes a matter of how you equate Betts' and Pederson's prospect value.
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Post by jdb on May 18, 2014 10:20:17 GMT -5
Isn't LA set at 2B though. They have Gordon playing well and the Cuban ,who's name escapes me, in AAA. I'm guessing the resign Rameriz for SS and have Seager as the 3B of the future. I think they eventually eat a lot of either Kemps or Eithiers contract.
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Post by wcsoxfan on May 18, 2014 12:12:50 GMT -5
Isn't LA set at 2B though. They have Gordon playing well and the Cuban ,who's name escapes me, in AAA. I'm guessing the resign Rameriz for SS and have Seager as the 3B of the future. I think they eventually eat a lot of either Kemps or Eithiers contract. I'm not quite sure they are sold on Dee Gordon and his .302 wOBA in May. It's too eerily similar to his previous batting lines which were deemed unacceptable. As far as Arruebarruena, he's got a .242 wOBA in AA. And I think they need him as Hanley insurance as they may not want to match the Yankees on a 200 - 300 mil contract. (I wouldn't want Hanley on a long term deal - you never know when he's going to get fat and lazy a la Shawn Kemp) Mookie would seem to be a superior option to what they have in their system. But if you were the Dodgers, would you rather trade Pederson for Mookie or dump one of Crawford/Ethier/Kemp for pennies on the dollar and keep Pederson?
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