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Jeff Samardzija
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 7, 2014 14:14:27 GMT -5
Wanted to throw this out there just to see what people think:
Jeff Samardjiza, Sonny Gray, John Jaso for Mookie Betts, Deven Marrero, Allen Webster/Brandon Workman, Allen Craig/Bryce Brentz
If Lester goes elsewhere, Samardjiza would become the #1 pitcher and if he leaves after 2015 the Red Sox take the pick. Sonny Gray looks top be at least a #2 who may grow into an ace, and he would be under control for the next 5 years. Jaso isn't needed by the A's (assuming Voigt would take his place) and he would be a solid backup compliment to Vazquez with a useful LH bat off the bench while backing up DH and 1B.
Mookie would immediately become the A's 2B (something they desperately need) and Marrero could step into being the starting SS immediately if they're willing to let him learn in the bigs - or the could sign a 1yr FA SS to fill the gap. Craig (not sure if Beane would be interested) or Brentz would make a nice platoon bat with upside and Workman/Webster would provide a back-end (with potential to be better) starter to fill the pitching gap (along with the guys they got from Toronto).
Short of Sale, I think something along these lines is the only way I would consider trading Mookie - and it makes a lot of sense as Mookie is more valuable for the A's then he would be for the Red Sox. This would also provide the option of keeping Cespedes if the Red Sox choose.
What do you guys think?
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 7, 2014 16:04:09 GMT -5
I would be happy with that trade for the Sox, whether Beane would do that no one can say. I'm not exactly excited about spending resources on Jaso or keeping Cespedes though.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 7, 2014 21:30:56 GMT -5
I am not happy with any trade that involves betts, bogey or swihart.
I think beane would be willing to move samardzija for a decent prospect or two.
Rubby and coyle for samardzija?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 7, 2014 21:32:08 GMT -5
Wanted to throw this out there just to see what people think: Jeff Samardjiza, Sonny Gray, John Jaso for Mookie Betts, Deven Marrero, Allen Webster/Brandon Workman, Allen Craig/Bryce Brentz If Lester goes elsewhere, Samardjiza would become the #1 pitcher and if he leaves after 2015 the Red Sox take the pick. Sonny Gray looks top be at least a #2 who may grow into an ace, and he would be under control for the next 5 years. Jaso isn't needed by the A's (assuming Voigt would take his place) and he would be a solid backup compliment to Vazquez with a useful LH bat off the bench while backing up DH and 1B. Mookie would immediately become the A's 2B (something they desperately need) and Marrero could step into being the starting SS immediately if they're willing to let him learn in the bigs - or the could sign a 1yr FA SS to fill the gap. Craig (not sure if Beane would be interested) or Brentz would make a nice platoon bat with upside and Workman/Webster would provide a back-end (with potential to be better) starter to fill the pitching gap (along with the guys they got from Toronto). Short of Sale, I think something along these lines is the only way I would consider trading Mookie - and it makes a lot of sense as Mookie is more valuable for the A's then he would be for the Red Sox. This would also provide the option of keeping Cespedes if the Red Sox choose. What do you guys think? No chance the A's do that. I think you are seriously undervaluing Sonny Gray, for one thing. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Gray and Betts basically cancel out in value (Dave Cameron would, for example: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2014-trade-value-an-offseason-update/, as would Jonah Keri), your trade then breaks down to Samardzija and Jaso for Marrero, Webster/Workman, and Craig/Brentz. In other words, a #2 and Jaso for a shortstop who may or may not hit enough to start in the majors, a bullpen arm, and a fringy outfielder.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 7, 2014 21:33:04 GMT -5
I am not happy with any trade that involves betts, bogey or swihart. I think beane would be willing to move samardzija for a decent prospect or two. Rubby and coyle for samardzija? What exactly would Oakland's rationale be for making that trade? De La Rosa might be a bullpen arm and Coyle doesn't project to be a starter in the majors.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 7, 2014 21:40:34 GMT -5
I am not happy with any trade that involves betts, bogey or swihart. I think beane would be willing to move samardzija for a decent prospect or two. Rubby and coyle for samardzija? What exactly would Oakland's rationale be for making that trade? De La Rosa might be a bullpen arm and Coyle doesn't project to be a starter in the majors. Let's remember samardzija is a one year rental. If Rubby projects as a bullpen arm, we have several others we can swap out. Ranaudo, Escobar, Webster, etc.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 7, 2014 21:41:58 GMT -5
What exactly would Oakland's rationale be for making that trade? De La Rosa might be a bullpen arm and Coyle doesn't project to be a starter in the majors. Let's remember samardzija is a one year rental. If Rubby projects as a bullpen arm, we have several others we can swap out. Ranaudo, Escobar, Webster, etc. So your point is that after they gave up one of the top 10 prospects in that game for Samardzija at the deadline, the A's are going to take garbage for him a few months later?
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Post by larrycook on Dec 7, 2014 21:52:04 GMT -5
Let's remember samardzija is a one year rental. If Rubby projects as a bullpen arm, we have several others we can swap out. Ranaudo, Escobar, Webster, etc. So your point is that after they gave up one of the top 10 prospects in that game for Samardzija at the deadline, the A's are going to take garbage for him a few months later? No, I see value in whatever players we give up for samardzija, and except for a certain three players, I am not worried about the combination. But I also think July is a sellers market and the winter is a buyer's market so prices adjust accordingly. So the Hayward deal as an example.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 7, 2014 22:28:16 GMT -5
So your point is that after they gave up one of the top 10 prospects in that game for Samardzija at the deadline, the A's are going to take garbage for him a few months later? No, I see value in whatever players we give up for samardzija, and except for a certain three players, I am not worried about the combination. But I also think July is a sellers market and the winter is a buyer's market so prices adjust accordingly. So the Hayward deal as an example. The A's aren't forced to deal The Shark, so why should they take two dimes and a nickel for a quarter? The A's also have 28 other teams they can deal with. They don't have to accept mediocre Red Sox prospects or a fringy #5/relief type. I'm sure there are other teams that can top that offer. By the way, every time you mention Max Scherzer can you please put the silent C in his name? It's Max Scherzer, not Max Sherzer. Minor point, and we all misspell things from time to time, but it shouldn't be hard to spell this guy's name right. Easier than spelling the Shark's name correctly, which I think you did.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 7, 2014 23:16:36 GMT -5
No, I see value in whatever players we give up for samardzija, and except for a certain three players, I am not worried about the combination. But I also think July is a sellers market and the winter is a buyer's market so prices adjust accordingly. So the Hayward deal as an example. The A's aren't forced to deal The Shark, so why should they take two dimes and a nickel for a quarter? Again beane is trying to rework his roster by trading short term value for prospects he can work with for several years. Beane will ask for the moon, we will offer him a pinto and we will meet in the middle: ie a near ready triple a pitcher and a full six year control prospect.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 8, 2014 0:12:24 GMT -5
No chance the A's do that. I think you are seriously undervaluing Sonny Gray, for one thing. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Gray and Betts basically cancel out in value (Dave Cameron would, for example: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2014-trade-value-an-offseason-update/, as would Jonah Keri), your trade then breaks down to Samardzija and Jaso for Marrero, Webster/Workman, and Craig/Brentz. In other words, a #2 and Jaso for a shortstop who may or may not hit enough to start in the majors, a bullpen arm, and a fringy outfielder. I'm familiar with the off-season value update (although I'm surprised you are - didn't think you liked fangraphs?) and am fully aware of Sonny Gray's talents. The part in question here seems to be more of: 'is Webster/Workman good enough to be half the package for Samardzija?' I was wondering this as well and could see the A's wanting something a little better. In my opinion Owens would be too much - perhaps the A's like Johnson, Barnes or Ranaudo and they would take the place of Webster/Workman. I'm guessing that Beane would like to spin Samardzija this offseason as teams seem to be valuing the lost draft pick more than in the past which would diminish the normally inflated value of a SP rental at the trade deadline (RP don't appear to be affected as they are rarely candidates for a qualifying offer). Marrero would be a perfect chip headed to Oakland (would offer 6 years of cost controlled service and can probably get 1.5-2 WAR immediately for his glove), but on top of him who do you think would be the correct 'other half' of the trade to get Samardzija? To me Betts' value should be a tad higher than Gray's for Oakland. They are each potential 4-5 WAR players but Betts is a position player (therefore less of a major injury risk) and he has 1 additional year of team control. As he has played less in the majors it may be that he is seen as less of a 'sure thing' but much of that would come down to the A's scouting report - and who knows what that says. For the Red Sox, I think the opposite is true, because Betts would probably lose 0.5-1 WAR for playing a corner OF position at (presumably) a lower level than he plays 2B.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 8, 2014 1:12:51 GMT -5
The A's aren't forced to deal The Shark, so why should they take two dimes and a nickel for a quarter? Again beane is trying to rework his roster by trading short term value for prospects he can work with for several years. Beane will ask for the moon, we will offer him a pinto and we will meet in the middle: ie a near ready triple a pitcher and a full six year control prospect. You really think another team can't top a Rubby/Coyle type of deal for The Shark? Again, Not only is Beane not necessarily forced to make a deal, but if he does, don't you think at least one of the other 28 teams can top that offer? Beane isn't being forced to trade with the Red Sox only. The Red Sox do have other competition for The Shark.
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Post by seadogs34 on Dec 8, 2014 14:19:30 GMT -5
Nick Cafardo- 'Red sox would have to include SS Marrero in any deal with the A's for Samardzija"
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Post by larrycook on Dec 8, 2014 14:26:27 GMT -5
Again beane is trying to rework his roster by trading short term value for prospects he can work with for several years. Beane will ask for the moon, we will offer him a pinto and we will meet in the middle: ie a near ready triple a pitcher and a full six year control prospect. You really think another team can't top a Rubby/Coyle type of deal for The Shark? Again, Not only is Beane not necessarily forced to make a deal, but if he does, don't you think at least one of the other 28 teams can top that offer? Beane isn't being forced to trade with the Red Sox only. The Red Sox do have other competition for The Shark. Do you really think Oakland could not find a better deal for one of the best third basemen in baseball?
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2014 14:37:58 GMT -5
With Beane seemingly in la-la land, wouldn't it be quite a splash to announce something like a Webster/Holt/Marrero for Kazmir/Samardzija deal prior to Lester announcing who he is signing with?
Then we'd have Craig and the backup catcher to deal with and that's about it. Oops, and Cespedes. Just trade them for prospects.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Dec 8, 2014 14:42:31 GMT -5
I love Jaso as a backup C/1B/DH. He's a pullhitter, but as a line drive guy I think Fenway's RF won't really do him too much damage. He'd murder Camden and Yankee Stadium. He's by all means a poor defensive player but to a mitigable extent.
I like Ross, but if Vazquez goes through a sophomore slump or gets hurt, out catching situation would look a lot better with Jaso + Butler/Swihart/Spring than with Ross every day. Eventually Jaso could be a very good DH or trade chip. I think he'd sign a cheap extension, and then people would realize how productive he is at 1B/DH if healthy. He'd increase our versatility even more, and could be solid insurance for a potential Napoli or Ortiz departure.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Dec 8, 2014 14:46:48 GMT -5
With Beane seemingly in la-la land, wouldn't it be quite a splash to announce something like a Webster/Holt/Marrero for Kazmir/Samardzija deal prior to Lester announcing who he is signing with? Then we'd have Craig and the backup catcher to deal with and that's about it. Wow never thought about a potential Samardzija/Kazmir package. Kazmir scares me with his durability, and he really tailed off in the second half last year. Still, that's a package that would sure up the rotation right away. Beane is impossible to predict with what the package would be, but I can see him liking Johnson a lot too. EDIT: I don't know why people include Rubby in trade proposals. He's the type of guy where if he adds deception, he can be a dominant starter, and if not, can be a dominant reliever under control until 2019. I definitely want him around and think his trade value isn't high enough to capitalize on yet.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2014 14:48:18 GMT -5
With Beane seemingly in la-la land, wouldn't it be quite a splash to announce something like a Webster/Holt/Marrero for Kazmir/Samardzija deal prior to Lester announcing who he is signing with? Then we'd have Craig and the backup catcher to deal with and that's about it. Wow never thought about a potential Samardzija/Kazmir package. Kazmir scares me with his durability, and he really tailed off in the second half last year. Still, that's a package that would sure up the rotation right away. Beane is impossible to predict with what the package would be, but I can see him liking Johnson a lot too. Sure, I'd sub Johnson for Webster. I think we've figured out Beane's motive here in trading for more years of control and Webster/Holt/Marrero would be a whole lot and Kazmir/Samardzija would be only 1 year each. It would also free up about $20 million for them to use this year.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Dec 8, 2014 14:54:36 GMT -5
Wow never thought about a potential Samardzija/Kazmir package. Kazmir scares me with his durability, and he really tailed off in the second half last year. Still, that's a package that would sure up the rotation right away. Beane is impossible to predict with what the package would be, but I can see him liking Johnson a lot too. Sure, I'd sub Johnson for Webster. I think we've figured out Beane's motive here in trading for more years of control and Webster/Holt/Marrero would be a whole lot and Kazmir/Samardzija would be only 1 year each. I know his deals have seemed light, but to be safe I'll say something a bit more rich: Johnson/Ranaudo/Marrero Thats a lot of control in young SPs, but we are deep. Young SPs ready to try now/soon: Rubby, Webster, Barnes, Owens, Rodriguez, Workman... We'd manage. I'm high on Johnson too, I think he can be a lefty Cashner, but it's a price I'm willing to pay to compete now. I'm also convinced Renaldo is the weakest link here and is much better off in the AL West than East.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2014 14:55:58 GMT -5
Sure, I'd sub Johnson for Webster. I think we've figured out Beane's motive here in trading for more years of control and Webster/Holt/Marrero would be a whole lot and Kazmir/Samardzija would be only 1 year each. I know his deals have seemed light, but to be safe I'll say something a bit more rich: Johnson/Ranaudo/Marrero Thats a lot of control in young SPs, but we are deep. Young SPs ready to try now/soon: Rubby, Webster, Barnes, Owens, Rodriguez, Workman... We'd manage. I'm high on Johnson too, I think he can be a lefty Cashner, but it's a price I'm willing to pay to compete now. I'm also convinced Renaldo is the weakest link here and is much better off in the AL West than East. I'd say 'take your pick of anyone not named Owens or Rodriguez'. But I'd hate to include Barnes.
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Post by juniorp90 on Dec 8, 2014 15:52:29 GMT -5
Wanted to throw this out there just to see what people think: Jeff Samardjiza, Sonny Gray, John Jaso for Mookie Betts, Deven Marrero, Allen Webster/Brandon Workman, Allen Craig/Bryce Brentz If Lester goes elsewhere, Samardjiza would become the #1 pitcher and if he leaves after 2015 the Red Sox take the pick. Sonny Gray looks top be at least a #2 who may grow into an ace, and he would be under control for the next 5 years. Jaso isn't needed by the A's (assuming Voigt would take his place) and he would be a solid backup compliment to Vazquez with a useful LH bat off the bench while backing up DH and 1B. Mookie would immediately become the A's 2B (something they desperately need) and Marrero could step into being the starting SS immediately if they're willing to let him learn in the bigs - or the could sign a 1yr FA SS to fill the gap. Craig (not sure if Beane would be interested) or Brentz would make a nice platoon bat with upside and Workman/Webster would provide a back-end (with potential to be better) starter to fill the pitching gap (along with the guys they got from Toronto). Short of Sale, I think something along these lines is the only way I would consider trading Mookie - and it makes a lot of sense as Mookie is more valuable for the A's then he would be for the Red Sox. This would also provide the option of keeping Cespedes if the Red Sox choose. What do you guys think? No chance the A's do that. I think you are seriously undervaluing Sonny Gray, for one thing. Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that Gray and Betts basically cancel out in value (Dave Cameron would, for example: www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2014-trade-value-an-offseason-update/, as would Jonah Keri), your trade then breaks down to Samardzija and Jaso for Marrero, Webster/Workman, and Craig/Brentz. In other words, a #2 and Jaso for a shortstop who may or may not hit enough to start in the majors, a bullpen arm, and a fringy outfielder. I do not think the A's included in a package with Samardzija, Sonny Gray, Pomeranz seems to be a little more sensible. Would not include Jaso (His shooting percentages are quite mediocre, too contrasting with Vasquez). And excluding the untouchables group of prospects of Redsox, clearly we can get, offering Manuel Margot (perfectly can be your CF for many years if maintained its projection), Brian Johnson or Ranaudo (Fit's profile accustomed pitchers seen in the a's) and Deven Marrero, and why not include a lesser pitcher either Britton, Wilson, Mujica or Layne? If this is not a change in direction, do not know what will. And remember that Samardzija did not only change Russell ...
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Dec 8, 2014 22:29:49 GMT -5
I know his deals have seemed light, but to be safe I'll say something a bit more rich: Johnson/Ranaudo/Marrero Thats a lot of control in young SPs, but we are deep. Young SPs ready to try now/soon: Rubby, Webster, Barnes, Owens, Rodriguez, Workman... We'd manage. I'm high on Johnson too, I think he can be a lefty Cashner, but it's a price I'm willing to pay to compete now. I'm also convinced Renaldo is the weakest link here and is much better off in the AL West than East. I'd say 'take your pick of anyone not named Owens or Rodriguez'. But I'd hate to include Barnes. Same here love Barnes, chronically overlooked. Can't really say I want Rubby traded either, and you can make the case that we'd be selling low on Webster too. Can't always get what you want though.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 8, 2014 23:28:51 GMT -5
Baseballhotcorner.com has the white sox trading sale to us for swihart, two or three of our best pitching prospects and maybe checchini and/or marrero.
Then Chicago would go after samardzija from Oakland.
We could then use cespedes in a trade to get a pitcher and/ or sign shields.
Talk about an all in scenario.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Dec 8, 2014 23:32:27 GMT -5
I'm all in for Swihart + Rodriguez/Owens as a base for Sale. Not sure they'd want to trade him now that they're in a position to win this season. Great 1-3 in that rotation right now and a little better offensively too.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 8, 2014 23:37:23 GMT -5
That is probably a troll report but that'd be aight.
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