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2014-15 offseason discussion
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2014 20:14:25 GMT -5
Cespedes and Heyward have had very similar wrc last year, and over last three years (Hayward better in 2 year sample). I'm not trying to suggest Cespedes is worth as much as Hayward, as he is older, not as good defensively , and can't get a qo, just they have similar upside offensively. With the 3 best fa bats off the board I don't see why Cespedes wouldn't be worth a solid pitcher back. Because Heyward has been arguably the best defensive OF in all of baseball over the last three years? He's so far superior to Cespedes on that side, it's not even close. FWAR from 2012 to 2014: Heyward (14.8), Cespdes (8.5) BWAR from 12-14: Heyward (15.6), Cespedes (9.6) It's not really that close if you are just comparing the two, let alone the fact that Heyward is 4 years younger
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 24, 2014 20:15:07 GMT -5
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 24, 2014 20:16:41 GMT -5
Cespedes and Heyward have had very similar wrc last year, and over last three years (Hayward better in 2 year sample). I'm not trying to suggest Cespedes is worth as much as Hayward, as he is older, not as good defensively , and can't get a qo, just they have similar upside offensively. With the 3 best fa bats off the board I don't see why Cespedes wouldn't be worth a solid pitcher back. Because Heyward has been arguably the best defensive OF in all of baseball over the last three years? He's so far superior to Cespedes on that side, it's not even close. FWAR from 2012 to 2014: Heyward (14.8), Cespdes (8.5) BWAR from 12-14: Heyward (15.6), Cespedes (9.6) It's not really that close if you are just comparing the two, let alone the fact that Heyward is 4 years younger If you reread what you just quoted, I said similar value offensively, and cespedes should bring back a solid pitcher. I'm thinking Latos type.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 24, 2014 20:18:32 GMT -5
Cespedes and Heyward have had very similar wrc last year, and over last three years (Hayward better in 2 year sample). I'm not trying to suggest Cespedes is worth as much as Hayward, as he is older, not as good defensively , and can't get a qo, just they have similar upside offensively. With the 3 best fa bats off the board I don't see why Cespedes wouldn't be worth a solid pitcher back. They don't, though. Heyward has huge raw power that hasn't consistently shown up in games, and at 24, there's still a real chance he'll figure that out. Combined with his speed, defense, and on-base ability, that would make him an MVP candidate. Cespedes on the other hand pretty much is what he is.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 24, 2014 20:20:30 GMT -5
What has Hayward done offensively in the last three years that would suggest he is a clear better hitter than cespedes. Less power more obp that evens each other out.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2014 20:21:43 GMT -5
Because Heyward has been arguably the best defensive OF in all of baseball over the last three years? He's so far superior to Cespedes on that side, it's not even close. FWAR from 2012 to 2014: Heyward (14.8), Cespdes (8.5) BWAR from 12-14: Heyward (15.6), Cespedes (9.6) It's not really that close if you are just comparing the two, let alone the fact that Heyward is 4 years younger If you reread what you just quoted, I said similar value offensively, and cespedes should bring back a solid pitcher. I'm thinking Latos type. I mean sure, they are somewhat comparable offensively, but they aren't even close to comparable players, and Latos isn't all that far off from Miller. And Heyward's upside offensively alone is far greater than Cespedes
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,830
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Post by nomar on Nov 24, 2014 20:23:47 GMT -5
Cespedes' obvious raw power and high fly ball rates also make him a break out candidate I would remind you, although at this point his chances of breaking out are lower than Heyward's. I would be surprised if Hayward isn't at least a .180 ISO guy by his age 28 year. I wouldn't compare the two because STL got the opportunity to extend a young star before he even enters his prime.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 24, 2014 20:24:30 GMT -5
If you reread what you just quoted, I said similar value offensively, and cespedes should bring back a solid pitcher. I'm thinking Latos type. I mean sure, they are somewhat comparable offensively, but they aren't even close to comparable players, and Latos isn't all that far off from Miller. And Heyward's upside offensively alone is far greater than Cespedes Please reread this a second time and tell me what I'm saying wrong. . I'm not trying to suggest Cespedes is worth as much as Hayward, as he is older, not as good defensively , and can't get a qo, just they have similar upside offensively
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2014 20:25:47 GMT -5
I mean sure, they are somewhat comparable offensively, but they aren't even close to comparable players, and Latos isn't all that far off from Miller. And Heyward's upside offensively alone is far greater than Cespedes Please reread this a second time and tell me what I'm saying wrong. . I'm not trying to suggest Cespedes is worth as much as Hayward, as he is older, not as good defensively , and can't get a qo, just they have similar upside offensively
Cespdes' upside isn't nearly as high as Heyward's is. Not even close. You then said he could be worth a Latos type guy, also not the case unless some team gets depserate
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 24, 2014 20:28:54 GMT -5
Cripes this is the third time you misquoted me, the next word that you obviously left out is offensively[/u].
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2014 20:30:15 GMT -5
Cripes this is the third time you misquoted me, the next word that you obviously left out is offensively[/u]. [/quote] That last post should have said offensive upside. Which still isn't close. My previous post quoting you said exactly that, that Heywards' OFFENSIVES upside was significantly higher
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 24, 2014 20:37:56 GMT -5
Cripes this is the third time you misquoted me, the next word that you obviously left out is offensivelyI for one am stating Heyward has more upside offensively.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 24, 2014 20:38:48 GMT -5
“@mlb_nl_al: My source still saying same thing on Lester, despite other reports. We shall see.”
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 24, 2014 20:49:04 GMT -5
“@marino_Pepen: Lester cerca, muy cerca...”
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 24, 2014 20:55:46 GMT -5
Jake Wesley @mlb_al_nl 3m, "Being told lesters deal could happen tonight. If he doesn't sign by Wednesday, means team done negotiating with Jon"
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 24, 2014 21:06:22 GMT -5
What a dumb progression of the Heyward/Cespedes conversation. Go back to my original post and see what I said, I'm comparing the last three years and saying offensively they have been similar. I'm simply reading stats off a website. If you want to twist my words to fit a different narrative fine, but I'm not going to continue the discussion after this post. Why don't you take a look at the last three years and tell me how Heyward has been better with the stick.
Let's go Lester.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 24, 2014 21:08:55 GMT -5
What a dumb progression of the Heyward/Cespedes conversation. Go back to my original post and see what I said, I'm comparing the last three years and saying offensively they have been similar. I'm simply reading stats off a website. If you want to twist my words to fit a different narrative fine, but I'm not going to continue the discussion after this post. Why don't you take a look at the last three years and tell me how Heyward has been better with the stick. Let's go Lester. You said "upside". Upside isn't past performance, it's potential future performance. Heyward's is considerably higher.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 24, 2014 21:11:53 GMT -5
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 24, 2014 21:14:52 GMT -5
Sorry for sloppiness of posts I'm on mobile.
Heyward is up 2pts on wrc and 9pts woba for career. And down 3pts we and 1pt soba last three years
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 24, 2014 21:46:57 GMT -5
Frank Pimentel @frankbostontank 1m, "According to multiple sources, #RedSox will pursue Max Scherzer if a deal cannot be reached with Jon Lester. #MLB"
Frank Pimentel @frankbostontank 23s, "Sources: #RedSox have discussed trades on a slew of big name SP's including: Chris Sale, Johnny Cueto, Jeff Samardzija and Cole Hamels. #MLB"
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Post by mainesox on Nov 24, 2014 22:00:09 GMT -5
Can I just point out that that Wesley kid hasn't broken anything? He's simply been regurgitating what Christopher Meola has been reporting on both Sandoval and Hanley, and trying to link himself to the info.
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redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,666
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 24, 2014 22:05:56 GMT -5
It seems to me, based on what I'm reading, that the Sox have three offers out to Lester and if he doesn't accept them by Wednesday, they move on to other pitchers. I have trouble believing that they'd spend for that much more for Scherzer than they would Lester. I would think that they'd make a deal for Cole Hamels assuming that they can get Amaro off his demands of Bogaerts and they keep Betts and Swihart out of the deal. They'd probably have to deal Owens plus a few other prospects hopefully not named Devers or Margot either.
And it seems they're going after Andrew Miller?
Gotta say, especially if the Sox then go hard after Moncado and are able to trade Cespedes for a solid starting pitcher, then no matter what happens in 2015, you can't say the Sox didn't do everything possible to win.
The last couple of days have been a whirlwind. Hope there's more great news, and if Miller and Lester do come back aboard that would mean that of the 4 Red Sox free agent signings, three of them actually were X-Red Sox. Bringing the guys back home.
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Post by mredsox89 on Nov 24, 2014 22:08:07 GMT -5
What a dumb progression of the Heyward/Cespedes conversation. Go back to my original post and see what I said, I'm comparing the last three years and saying offensively they have been similar. I'm simply reading stats off a website. If you want to twist my words to fit a different narrative fine, but I'm not going to continue the discussion after this post. Why don't you take a look at the last three years and tell me how Heyward has been better with the stick. Let's go Lester. You said "upside". Upside isn't past performance, it's potential future performance. Heyward's is considerably higher. This. They've been nearly identical offensive players for the last 3 years, and the one more likely to increase his offensive production by a substantial amount is Heyward, thus his offensive upside is better
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Post by jmei on Nov 24, 2014 22:13:01 GMT -5
Can I just point out that that Wesley kid hasn't broken anything? He's simply been regurgitating what Christopher Meola has been reporting on both Sandoval and Hanley, and trying to link himself to the info. I hate this race to be the first one to break news. I loved how the Braves/Cardinals team twitter accounts broke the Heyward/Miller trade. I know that you can't do that every time (since it takes forever to go from agreement on basic terms to a done deal), but I wouldn't mind if that was the case.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 24, 2014 22:15:19 GMT -5
Report from Philadelphia that the Dodgers have join the Hamels' race.
Lol yeah keep trying to trump up a phony biding war alright. I'll raise you one further they can have him.
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