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Discussion of 2014 and 2015 pitching rotations
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Post by jmei on Oct 5, 2014 9:32:19 GMT -5
Let's keep this thread on-topic and steer clear of too much trade speculation (that does in the trade proposal subforum). Thanks.
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Post by GyIantosca on Oct 5, 2014 10:25:00 GMT -5
I think it's better to right a wrong and get Lester back. We know Lester ,they have a complete book on him. Money fixes all bad feelings. A couple of phone calls from the right people and a boatload of money. Hamels is a good pitcher but he comes over from the NL we don't know how that translates. What if the umps don't give him certain pitches .
Who wants to deal with that screwball in Philly anyway. Big deal the Sox give Lester 6 years instead of 5. That's Lucchinos fault for screwing around. We'll see.
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Post by jmei on Oct 5, 2014 13:15:57 GMT -5
MLBTR has a profile of Justin Masterson: www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/10/free-agent-profile-justin-masterson.htmlIf he's willing to take a one-year pillow contract, I'd be all over him. He has a track record of being a very good pitcher, and even during a year wracked by injury and mechanical problems, his peripherals were still decent enough (roughly league-average xFIP/SIERA).
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Post by soxfan95 on Oct 5, 2014 15:13:05 GMT -5
I think Masterson would be a really nice piece for the Sox next year. He probably would be willing to take a one-year 'prove-it' deal for a realtively low amount of money. He could slot into the three/four spot between our two starting acquisitions and Kelly and Buchholz.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Oct 5, 2014 16:37:54 GMT -5
I would take him if we were using as the 5th guy on the staff, but the seem to want to slap one of the kids in that role. I still think they need a combo of (Lester, Shields, Cueto, Hamels) + (Shields, Cueto, McCarthy, Leake, Latos, Cashner, Ross, write in) to really compete for the division.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 5, 2014 18:04:54 GMT -5
I would take him if we were using as the 5th guy on the staff, but the seem to want to slap one of the kids in that role. I still think they need a combo of (Lester, Shields, Cueto, Hamels) + (Shields, Cueto, McCarthy, Leake, Latos, Cashner, Ross, write in) to really compete for the division. I want to agree with you, but I'm unsure how realistic it is that we get two of those guys. Also I wouldn't put Leake, Cashner, or even Ross in that category. Ross and Cashner are very significantly worse in the road, and Leake is very consistent but a 3.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 5, 2014 18:16:57 GMT -5
We may have zero # 3 pitchers going into next year the way it stands now. We have to either trade for some #2 or above pitchers, sign them as FA, or hope like hell we get lucky. We have no sure thingwithin the starting pitchers on staff.
They keep saying they want to compete in 2015 and they keep saying they will sign a top starter. We pretty much know most of the cash is going to fill that need at this point right?
I think it's at least 2 top guys. A Lester and Liriano or some sort of similar combination. If they really want to compete next year they need to do a short term deal like Leake for Cespedes or some prospects for Leake...etc. as well as far as I'm concerned and even then they would have to hope a guy like Craig or Victorino reemerges.
We probably need to move someone like Ranaudo and some other prospects to get what we need short term. I'd rather just make 2015 a rebuilding year but it appears them may want to position themselves to win in 2015 even if it costs us some prospects.
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Post by jmei on Oct 5, 2014 18:17:38 GMT -5
There are scenarios where I'd be happy with a rotation of [Front-end guy], Masterson, Buchholz, Kelly, and De La Rosa. It might require a blockbuster trade for an All-Star-type position player (you know the likely candidates, I'm sure), though, with the recognition that a stacked lineup can carry a weaker rotation.
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Post by tonyj1973 on Oct 5, 2014 19:29:44 GMT -5
Too many holes. Ben has to be very creative. I like Cueto but will cost a TON. Hammels would be more accessible. No Masterson due to will cost too much money for poor results. And He has to be very selective among the kids. Ranaudo would be a reliever like Workman and De la Rosa.Just one more chance for Webster. But He needs one more ACE. Trade Napoli and Victorino if they can. Test Craig as every day at 1B. Get a very solid defensive and productive 3B ( Beltre ). If possible trade for Stanton or keep Cespedes. ( Cespedes - Castillo - Betts ) ( Beltre - Boegarts - Pedroia - Craig ) ( ACE 1 - Cueto or Hammels - Buch - Kelly - Webster ) ( Wright - Escobar - Owens - Johnson and Rodriguez in mix )You allwas have to have another starter with Buch in your rotation. Get back Miller as a closer.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 5, 2014 19:36:28 GMT -5
If I had to guess I think they turn Cespedes+ into a guy like Cueto with limited control (or Latos) and then sign Lester or Shields.
I think Shields is a more realistic target than Lester. Shields will command less money and years, and chances are if you're trading for Hamels or a young guy you will have to give big money to soon like Cueto, you're going to want to save some salary. Lester is definitely better, but Shields is more consistent and will give us more room to wiggle at 3B and backup C.
I would be ecstatic if we see something like Shields, Cueto, Buchholz, Kelly, RDLR next year.
If it is Shields, Masterson, Buch, Kelly, RDLR until the deadline though, so be it.
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Post by taftreign on Oct 5, 2014 19:37:38 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 5, 2014 20:17:41 GMT -5
I'm only interested in Masterson with a vastly improved defense on the left side. And if he's interested in a pillow-contract, that's what his agent should be looking for and advising him to do. On a pillow contract it shouldn't be a matter of a few extra million, but getting in the situation of re-establishing the players value. That's why Adrian Beltre coming to Fenway was such a deft move.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Oct 5, 2014 21:07:28 GMT -5
I would be concerned about Shields. He has a lot of innings, has shown a tendency to give up the long ball and he's pitching deep into the post season which often has consequences negative for the following year Lester's recent example aside.
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 5, 2014 21:30:14 GMT -5
The present wave of potential starters has not been overly impressive in the last two months. But this is a SSS for all of Workman, DeLaRosa, Ranaudo and Webster. I was impressed with Webster's command and confidence in his last two starts. He surely has the good movement on his FB that scouts love. We could salvage a #4 or 5 starter out of that bunch.
Then we have the next wave which promises to be even better, with Owens, Rodriguez and Johnson. In another year one of those could emerge as a #3 or #4 starter.
My point is that the Sox may need only to invest in one starting pitcher, be it, Cueto, Lester, Santana or someone else. for 2015. The surviving organizational starters can be available to trade for a Stanton, Heyward or the aforementioned Cueto and a backup catcher.
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Post by p23w on Oct 5, 2014 22:56:16 GMT -5
Yes to Masterson. Big mebbe for Lester. No to everyone else. I want to see more of the kids. The bullpen needs a near complete make over. I'm getting pissed watching other teams run out ex-Red Sox pitchers from THEIR bullpens, especially playoff teams.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Oct 5, 2014 23:19:39 GMT -5
MLBTR has a profile of Justin Masterson: www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/10/free-agent-profile-justin-masterson.htmlIf he's willing to take a one-year pillow contract, I'd be all over him. He has a track record of being a very good pitcher, and even during a year wracked by injury and mechanical problems, his peripherals were still decent enough (roughly league-average xFIP/SIERA). Can see him on a 1y deal, though not at 12m. JJ didn't get that much this season (example) when he was supposedly healthy (serious injury wise) with the Jays during the 2013 season and put up poor numbers. His velocity has been on a somewhat steady decline from the gawdy days of lighting up 97-99 late in games, earlier in his career of course, but still respectable. Masterson has lost nearly everything in his tank. Point is JJ only got 8m and that injury option for what was it?? 4m, 5m?? I'd think the risk for Masterson is much more than it was for JJ and he's always been made out of glass.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 6, 2014 2:27:14 GMT -5
I don't see Maeda going to 6 years and $120-$130 mil. Is he better than Liriano, or Santana or a host of others? I don't think so. I'm usually all over top international guys but even I'm not going that high for Maeda. I bet the Redsox are in that pool but not nearly at that level.
And to me, they say they want to position themselves for winning in 2015, and I don't think Masterson is option B in that scenario.
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Post by jmei on Oct 6, 2014 9:20:43 GMT -5
MLBTR has a profile of Justin Masterson: www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/10/free-agent-profile-justin-masterson.htmlIf he's willing to take a one-year pillow contract, I'd be all over him. He has a track record of being a very good pitcher, and even during a year wracked by injury and mechanical problems, his peripherals were still decent enough (roughly league-average xFIP/SIERA). Can see him on a 1y deal, though not at 12m. JJ didn't get that much this season (example) when he was supposedly healthy (serious injury wise) with the Jays during the 2013 season and put up poor numbers. His velocity has been on a somewhat steady decline from the gawdy days of lighting up 97-99 late in games, earlier in his career of course, but still respectable. Masterson has lost nearly everything in his tank. Point is JJ only got 8m and that injury option for what was it?? 4m, 5m?? I'd think the risk for Masterson is much more than it was for JJ and he's always been made out of glass. I think Masterson is pretty clearly lower-risk than Josh Johnson was. Johnson threw all of 16 starts and 81.1 innings in his platform year, spending time on the DL due to a forearm strain and triceps inflammation while pitching through knee tendonitis and then having surgery to remove bone chips from his elbow in October. Johnson also had the more extensive injury history, as he'd thrown 200 innings just once in his six-plus-year career. Johnson also turned down larger one-year offers to sign in San Diego, betting that he'd be able to earn it back by pitching in the friendly confines of Petco. Masterson, meanwhile, managed to throw 128.2 innings this year despite being shifted to the bullpen in September, and has virtually no injury history prior to this year. Maybe $12m is a little aggressive, but I'd be surprised if he didn't get $10m+ offers, and I'd be happy to have him in Boston at that price.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 6, 2014 10:03:00 GMT -5
Ehhhh, I wouldn't mind Masterson for the right price, but not if they're going to rely on him to pitch like a no. 2 or better. He's a back-end starter for me who can so easily be countered by loading a lineup with LHB that he's worth less than he seems.
I think signing Masterson puts an awful lot of eggs in the Clay Buchholz basket. Not sure how I feel on that.
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Post by bryce on Oct 6, 2014 12:33:53 GMT -5
Are Mike Minor and Brett Anderson our targets?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 6, 2014 12:42:35 GMT -5
Are Mike Minor and Brett Anderson our targets? Geez, you like to target mediocrity. I'd hope you'd target higher. Anderson is a good pitcher, but when the heck has he thrown 100 in a year, let along 180? Anderson is as fragile as a pitcher can be. And Minor had a terrible year and has only had one good one in his career. Are you hoping the Sox repeat their last place finish? Lester, Scherzer, Hamels, Cueto, Latos, Liriano, and others are most likely available, and you're hoping for Anderson and Minor, thinking that they'd be primary targets of the Red Sox to replace Lester and Lackey?
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Post by sibbysisti on Oct 6, 2014 12:46:36 GMT -5
Are Mike Minor and Brett Anderson our targets? Dunno. Wher'd you hear that? Or just thrown' stuff out there?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Oct 6, 2014 12:56:53 GMT -5
Are Mike Minor and Brett Anderson our targets? You amaze me
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Post by brianthetaoist on Oct 6, 2014 13:40:01 GMT -5
I think signing Masterson puts an awful lot of eggs in the Clay Buchholz basket. Not sure how I feel on that. Let me help you get more in touch with your feelings on that:
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Post by Guidas on Oct 6, 2014 21:41:06 GMT -5
Y'all realize Shields will get 4 years, right? If you're willing to do that then why not sign Lester to a 5 year deal with an appearance incentive for a sixth, or Scherzer to a 6 year deal with an opt out after 3 (which you hope he goes for being that he's a max dollar guy and has fewer miles on the arm than Lester or Shields). Sheilds for a day more than 3 years scares me more than those other two for 5 or 6.
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