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Post by Guidas on Aug 19, 2014 20:40:22 GMT -5
Good start by Webster. If not for a ridunkculous catch by Calhoun and a pure rookie mistake by Mookie he'd be leaving the game up 4-2 or better.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 19, 2014 20:46:40 GMT -5
Ridiculous that Mookie didn't get an error on the diving play he missed that allowed a triple. Not only does superior defense save runs, it saves pitches, sometimes stressful ones. That's true, but the guy he replaced had a 60 WRC+. Sometimes you need to sacrifice defense for offense. I know you have a borderline obsession with outfield defense, but the 2004 Red Sox won the World Series with a left fielder who never took more than five steps and a center fielder who couldn't throw more than 85 feet. Both dudes could hit though. And Betts could easily end up as a pretty good CF. The guy is doing on-the-job training right now, cut him some slack.
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Post by redsox4242 on Aug 19, 2014 21:05:45 GMT -5
That's true, but the guy he replaced had a 60 WRC+. Sometimes you need to sacrifice defense for offense. I know you have a borderline obsession with outfield defense, but the 2004 Red Sox won the World Series with a left fielder who never took more than five steps and a center fielder who couldn't throw more than 85 feet. Both dudes could hit though. And Betts could easily end up as a pretty good CF. The guy is doing on-the-job training right now, cut him some slack. Agreed, for a kid who hasn't played CF since High School. He has done well.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 19, 2014 21:09:11 GMT -5
Nice job by Webster. Once he got his lead-ball working, there was a lot of gopher damage. He deserved better, but once again he outpitched Weaver. He had both the slider and change working also. I'll say it again, there may be hope.
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Post by soxfan06 on Aug 19, 2014 21:16:54 GMT -5
Since when is Alex Wilson decent?
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Post by station13 on Aug 19, 2014 21:44:06 GMT -5
It's like sudden death for our pitchers every inning. This is ridiculous.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 19, 2014 22:03:22 GMT -5
Alex Wilson WHIP since July 1st AAA = 1.02
I hope somebody grabs Kelly Johnson off waivers. He'd be a great addition for the right family! His fan club has seen their fill.
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Post by larrycook on Aug 19, 2014 22:32:41 GMT -5
The sooner Johnson leaves, the better!
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 20, 2014 7:33:48 GMT -5
Good loss last night. We only have a 2.5 game lead on an unprotected pick.
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Post by soxfanatic on Aug 20, 2014 7:37:55 GMT -5
Xander has a .397 OPS and 58 K's since June 7. Something has to change.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Aug 20, 2014 8:11:00 GMT -5
Xander has a .397 OPS and 58 K's since June 7. Something has to change. A short time ago there was a discussion about how likely or unlikely it was that JBJ would ever be a legitimate major league hitter given his dismal first full year performance. At what point does this become a legitimate question to ask about "presumptive superstar" Xander?
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 20, 2014 8:16:05 GMT -5
Xander has a .397 OPS and 58 K's since June 7. Something has to change. A short time ago there was a discussion about how likely or unlikely it was that JBJ would ever be a legitimate major league hitter given his dismal first full year performance. At what point does this become a legitimate question to ask about "presumptive superstar" Xander? There is still time to convert him into a pitcher.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 20, 2014 8:25:32 GMT -5
Xander has a .397 OPS and 58 K's since June 7. Something has to change. A short time ago there was a discussion about how likely or unlikely it was that JBJ would ever be a legitimate major league hitter given his dismal first full year performance. At what point does this become a legitimate question to ask about "presumptive superstar" Xander?Now if not at some point in the recent past. I've been as much of a Xander supporter as anyone but it's hard to find a lot of precedent for guys who were this bad at the major league level and went on to become stars.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 20, 2014 9:05:49 GMT -5
Now if not at some point in the recent past. I've been as much of a Xander supporter as anyone but it's hard to find a lot of precedent for guys who were this bad at the major league level and went on to become stars. Just off the top of my head: Carlos Gomez, Carlos Gonzalez, Pedro Alvarez, Alex Gordon, Chris Iannetta and I'm sure there's a lot more but I'm still sleepy.
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Post by jrffam05 on Aug 20, 2014 9:18:20 GMT -5
Bogaerts is 21. Not saying he is looking good now, but as a 21 year old playing in the majors I don't think we write him off just yet.
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Post by godot on Aug 20, 2014 9:22:51 GMT -5
Now if not at some point in the recent past. I've been as much of a Xander supporter as anyone but it's hard to find a lot of precedent for guys who were this bad at the major league level and went on to become stars. Just off the top of my head: Carlos Gomez, Carlos Gonzalez, Pedro Alvarez, Alex Gordon, Chris Iannetta and I'm sure there's a lot more but I'm still sleepy. Not necessarily disputing you, but could you at least give an analysis and comparison of a few of these guys compared to Xander. Often I have some hunches like this but upon further analysis it was the coffee talking.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 20, 2014 9:36:38 GMT -5
It seems a bit odd that the Sox stayed with 13 pitchers. Is it a reasonable assumption that Craig is about to be activated and they didn't want to bring someone else in for just a game or two?
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 20, 2014 9:44:25 GMT -5
Pedro Alvarez is still not good. Carlos Gomez hit .247/.294/.379 over his first 2130 plate appearances before figuring it out, so he's obviously the very rare exception. Gomez was able to stick around though plus centerfield defense, though. Gordon really was pretty good in his first two seasons, but the expectations for him were unreasonable. He bottomed out in year four, when he was 26.
Carlos Gonzalez is a good comp. Came into the league with similar expectations to Bogaerts, hit ok for the first couple months (less well than Bogaerts did), then cratered to .232/.266/.318 over his last three months (July to September) and .191/.212/.273 over the last two months of his (Age-22) rookie year.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Aug 20, 2014 11:34:43 GMT -5
Miguel Tejada didn't have a great line either. 233/298/384 for an OPS of 681. Miggy was 23+1 once his real age came out. Had 407 plate appearances. We don't know how much PED's helped him. Or, when he started on them. But, he was a pretty good player.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 20, 2014 12:07:29 GMT -5
Actually, those "exceptions" aren't all that rare. Paul Blair's line over his first 1800+ PAs, through his age 24 season was .256/.314/.383. He'd started quite young, but had one of his poorer lines at age 24 (.211/.277/.318). It brought everything else down.
One thing that's been interesting to me is how poorly many of the highly touted minor league bats have performed. Taveras is sub-mediocre at this point. Bradley actually has better numbers. Polanco hasn't done much at all either. I'm not sure what's going on, but it seems to have gone viral.
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Post by pkc99 on Aug 20, 2014 12:28:41 GMT -5
I have resorted to everyday finding articles to restore my faith in Xander turning things around. Found this today. The article doesn't really point to much new information that the eye test wouldn't already indicate, but Clarkin does point out in a comment that other now high-level hitters experienced similar breaking ball troubles. There is also this article about increased contact rates. Granted, Xander has been atrocious, and I am growing mildly concerned, but there have been slight improvements since the all-star break. For a 21-year-old rookie trying to become a good defender at a premium position as well as adjusting to advanced breaking balls, I think he is showing signs of progress, albeit really slowly. Personally, I will not think about writing him off until he keeps hitting .220 with and 80 WRC+ to next year.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 20, 2014 12:39:05 GMT -5
A short time ago there was a discussion about how likely or unlikely it was that JBJ would ever be a legitimate major league hitter given his dismal first full year performance. At what point does this become a legitimate question to ask about "presumptive superstar" Xander?Now if not at some point in the recent past. I've been as much of a Xander supporter as anyone but it's hard to find a lot of precedent for guys who were this bad at the major league level and went on to become stars. Wouldn't the fact that he's only 21 years old mitigate this somewhat? I mean most guys Xander's age are in A or AA ball. Xander looks terrible now and he seems to be pressing. I think a lot of this stuff is getting into his head. That doesn't mean that the light won't click on next season or in 2016 when he's still only 23 years old. Bradley, I'd be more concerned about. He's already 24. I'd think by next year he either figures it out or he most likely never will. Based on his track record in the minors, I think he'll figure it out, but the Sox obviously can't count on it.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 20, 2014 12:49:40 GMT -5
Actually, those "exceptions" aren't all that rare. Paul Blair's line over his first 1800+ PAs, through his age 24 season was .256/.314/.383. He'd started quite young, but had one of his poorer lines at age 24 (.211/.277/.318). It brought everything else down. One thing that's been interesting to me is how poorly many of the highly touted minor league bats have performed. Taveras is sub-mediocre at this point. Bradley actually has better numbers. Polanco hasn't done much at all either. I'm not sure what's going on, but it seems to have gone viral. They talked about the problem with major league hitting on the Olbermann show last night. Braden said there are at least twice as many pitchers in the major leagues today who can throw 95 MPH or higher than there were ten years ago. He also pointed to the increased specialization of relief pitching, and greater use of matchups lefty-lefty, etc. I think there is a greater gulf between AAA and the majors today largely in part because good pitchers get moved very fast through the minors now, and so there aren't as many good pitchers at AAA. I think the development of the various data collection methods has provided teams with far better information about hitters - and pitchers - but it works more to the disadvantage of hitters. Look at Gameday. Right there on every pitch there is information available to everyone, some of which really wasn't available at all just a few years ago. A hitter's weaknesses can be identified fairly easily. I think you made a good point about all the young hitters. I think more time and patience now is required with the young hitters.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 20, 2014 13:39:52 GMT -5
Corey Brown cleared waivers on TUES afternoon and accepted an outright assignment to Pawtucket. -surprised nobody claimed him -shows that even I, DFA-man, do not fully understand DFA. I thought Irrevocable Waivers only was timed on business days and that Brown was on waivers from 3pm Mon to 3pm WED. Turns out it was Sun afternoon through Tues afternoon. Back to the research lab. www.rotoworld.com/recent/mlb/5219/corey-brown
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 20, 2014 13:41:47 GMT -5
Also: "• Backup catcher David Ross, who has been out since Aug. 2 with plantar fasciitis in his right foot, is expected to be activated for Wednesday's game against the Angels. • Farrell said everything went well for Allen Craig in the first game of his rehab assignment Monday. Craig didn't play Tuesday, and instead came to Fenway to get his workout under the supervision of the Red Sox. The plan is for Craig to play right field for Pawtucket on Wednesday and Thursday and perhaps be activated Friday." mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20140819&content_id=90386104¬ebook_id=90407892&vkey=notebook_bos&c_id=bos#90407890
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