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Marlins Seek First Base Upgrade Via Trade
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Post by dmaineah on Nov 26, 2014 10:43:23 GMT -5
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 26, 2014 10:51:08 GMT -5
The marlins aren't going to give up one of their top young arms for damaged goods.
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Post by dmaineah on Nov 26, 2014 10:52:06 GMT -5
Fine, Mike Napoli then
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Post by nothingball on Nov 26, 2014 10:55:37 GMT -5
Heaney's better than any starting pitcher we have in the system and you want to get him for merely a bench player? I know it's fun to pick on Loria, but this proposal is out there even by speculation standards.
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Post by dmaineah on Nov 26, 2014 11:05:54 GMT -5
Heaney's better than any starting pitcher we have in the system and you want to get him for merely a bench player? I know it's fun to pick on Loria, but this proposal is out there even by speculation standards. I agree that someone would have to be added to a Craig or Napoli deal for Heaney
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 26, 2014 12:16:37 GMT -5
Huh, now that's interesting.
Napoli and Owens plus one of the young right-handers for Heaney? Does that get it done?
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 26, 2014 12:29:02 GMT -5
Huh, now that's interesting. Napoli and Owens plus one of the young right-handers for Heaney? Does that get it done? I think people are starting to underrate Owens. He's really not that far behind Heaney, is he?
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Post by terriblehondo on Nov 26, 2014 12:45:22 GMT -5
Huh, now that's interesting. Napoli and Owens plus one of the young right-handers for Heaney? Does that get it done? I think the Marlins would jump all over that trade.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Nov 26, 2014 12:58:48 GMT -5
Huh, now that's interesting. Napoli and Owens plus one of the young right-handers for Heaney? Does that get it done? I think people are starting to underrate Owens. He's really not that far behind Heaney, is he? Agreed. Owens and Heaney are comparable prospects. Slight edge to Heaney, but not nearly enough to justify Napoli.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 26, 2014 13:40:21 GMT -5
Fair, thought Heaney was more highly regarded than he is. I'll withdraw.
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Post by bgeer091 on Nov 26, 2014 13:53:31 GMT -5
Miami like Middlebrooks too. Maybe a Napoli, Middlebrooks, Barnes for Heaney plus lower specs
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Nov 26, 2014 15:01:24 GMT -5
Said this in the other thread but I wouldn't give Napoli up for anyone they have outside of Fernandez and Heaney, niether of which will happen.
Alvarez and Eovaldi both seem like 3/4 starters in our division to me. Even with their control I would rather have Napoli bolster our seemingly great lineup this year.
I would give up Craig for Eovaldi or Alvarez in a heartbeat, but that isn't going to happen either.
But: Miami has made it known they need 3B help. Maybe Cecchini + Craig could net Eovaldi or Alvarez.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 26, 2014 15:29:28 GMT -5
So for those who didn't click through at first (guilty here), the article doesn't say that they would trade Heaney, just that to get Gattis (who they're interested in) or Chris Davis (who they've inquired about) "The Marlins would need to offer quality pitching in return for either, potentially including top prospect Andrew Heaney." So, yeah, my guess is they're not going to trade Heaney.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 27, 2014 11:37:47 GMT -5
My guess is that they wouldn't trade Heaney for one year of control either of Mike Napoli alone either, though I think there are a lot of interesting permutations here that could make some sense. The Marlins are trying to put some pieces around Stanton, at least for the next couple of seasons it looks like. They are also a team where beyond Heaney, Kolek and Moran, the farm system looks pretty darn barren and none of their pitching prospects have even had success at the AA level as of yet (ie Nicolino, Williams, etc). So they aren't going to be able to trade pieces from their farm to produce a strong return - however, they do have some pretty decent young talent in the fold already (rotation to start the year looks to be Eovaldi, Alvarez, Koehler, Cosart and someone place-holding for Fernandez toward the All Star break.
They have reportedly been fans of Middlebrooks for quite some time - so I'm going to continue to take that at face value. I could see this as a situation where we "package quarters (from the AAA crunch) to get a dollar" if we're willing to include Napoli or Craig, and I think they'd choose Napoli. Something like Napoli, Middlebrooks (Moran is still at least two years away), Ranaudo and Wright for Heaney making some sense for both teams.
The Sox would then have the flexibility to figure in the Nava/Craig platoon at 1b to replace Napoli. While obviously a downgrade at 1b, if properly platooned a "Daniel Craig" (hehehe, sorry, I love Bond movies) first base option could almost assuredly* put up a 110 wRC+ next season - and could quite likely be a lot better. While this isn't nearly what Napoli averaged in his two seasons here thus far (roughly a 126) a huge difference is we'd be getting that out of the 6 or 7 hole instead of the clean up spot, and we'd be shedding quite a bit of salary, alleviating some of the roster crunch, and getting another pitcher that is similarly projected (though higher rated by most) than Owens.
*To arrive at my numbers, the "almost assuredly" part takes Nava's 118 wRC+ last year against RHP and Craig's 95 wRC+ agasint LHP, and averages them together with Nava accounting for 2/3 based on the greater number of RHP in the league. To get what I think is more reasonable, I took Nava's career wRC+ against RHP and 80% of Craig's career wRC+ against LHP and averaged those together in the same split.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 27, 2014 12:02:37 GMT -5
If they traded Napoli for pitching perhaps they could get Hanley to play first and keep Cespedes for left field. I'm not really sure Heaney qualifies for what is needed in 2015 though and I don't see why they'd trade Napoli or Cespedes for anything but a top 2 starter.
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Post by jdb on Nov 27, 2014 12:07:12 GMT -5
Moran was traded for Cosart. I think I'd trade Napoli for the right price but not for a prospects. Really only if he and some pieces (Cespedes + in a three way to keep Xander, Betts, Swihart) could net us Hamels. Also Napoli would be a great fit if the Marlins traded for him. They could QO him and he night work something out since they have a good young team and he's a Florida guy.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 27, 2014 12:14:53 GMT -5
My guess is that they wouldn't trade Heaney for one year of control either of Mike Napoli alone either, though I think there are a lot of interesting permutations here that could make some sense. The Marlins are trying to put some pieces around Stanton, at least for the next couple of seasons it looks like. They are also a team where beyond Heaney, Kolek and Moran, the farm system looks pretty darn barren and none of their pitching prospects have even had success at the AA level as of yet (ie Nicolino, Williams, etc). So they aren't going to be able to trade pieces from their farm to produce a strong return - however, they do have some pretty decent young talent in the fold already (rotation to start the year looks to be Eovaldi, Alvarez, Koehler, Cosart and someone place-holding for Fernandez toward the All Star break. They have reportedly been fans of Middlebrooks for quite some time - so I'm going to continue to take that at face value. I could see this as a situation where we "package quarters (from the AAA crunch) to get a dollar" if we're willing to include Napoli or Craig, and I think they'd choose Napoli. Something like Napoli, Middlebrooks (Moran is still at least two years away), Ranaudo and Wright for Heaney making some sense for both teams. The Sox would then have the flexibility to figure in the Nava/Craig platoon at 1b to replace Napoli. While obviously a downgrade at 1b, if properly platooned a "Daniel Craig" (hehehe, sorry, I love Bond movies) first base option could almost assuredly* put up a 110 wRC+ next season - and could quite likely be a lot better. While this isn't nearly what Napoli averaged in his two seasons here thus far (roughly a 126) a huge difference is we'd be getting that out of the 6 or 7 hole instead of the clean up spot, and we'd be shedding quite a bit of salary, alleviating some of the roster crunch, and getting another pitcher that is similarly projected (though higher rated by most) than Owens. *To arrive at my numbers, the "almost assuredly" part takes Nava's 118 wRC+ last year against RHP and Craig's 95 wRC+ agasint LHP, and averages them together with Nava accounting for 2/3 based on the greater number of RHP in the league. To get what I think is more reasonable, I took Nava's career wRC+ against RHP and 80% of Craig's career wRC+ against LHP and averaged those together in the same split. Why on earth would we trade that much for a prospect who we couldn't even pencil into the rotation? We're trying to win now. The only way Napoli gets traded anywhere is if the deal improves the team immediately. Heaney is a good prospect, but we already have Owens and Rodriguez that are pretty comparable to him.
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Post by grandsalami on Nov 27, 2014 16:17:47 GMT -5
“@clarkspencer: Add Allen Craig to the list of first basemen the #marlins are looking at as a potential trade target.”
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Post by bigbatter on Nov 27, 2014 17:06:17 GMT -5
What about Craig, Middlebrooks, Owens, and another top-10 prospect (not named Xander/Mookie) for Fernandez? One can dream right?
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Post by pedroelgrande on Nov 27, 2014 18:20:48 GMT -5
Anyone.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Nov 27, 2014 18:39:13 GMT -5
What about Craig, Middlebrooks, Owens, and another top-10 prospect (not named Xander/Mookie) for Fernandez? One can dream right? Try Mookie, Swihart, Owens, Craig. That's probably what it would take.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 27, 2014 19:28:34 GMT -5
What about Craig, Middlebrooks, Owens, and another top-10 prospect (not named Xander/Mookie) for Fernandez? One can dream right? Try Mookie, Swihart, Owens, Craig. That's probably what it would take. Try you couldn't get him
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 27, 2014 20:01:21 GMT -5
Just for the record, I don't think the team is in as much of a "win now" move as some may think from these moves as much as I hope it is a solid long term plan of having guys like Sandvoal, Ramirez, Ortiz, Pedroia and Castillo with youngsters like Bogaerts, Betts, Vazquez, Swihart, etc. Overall, I think the Sox plan is to build a diversified portfolio of veterans and cost controlled youngsters as outlined previously. So think of a mindset like Sandoval at $19M and Bogaerts at (approximately) $1M averaging out to be two $10M players on the left side of the infield (or Hanley at $22M and Betts at $1M average out to being an $11.5M player).
Keep in mind, I could very well be "under-valuing" Napoli and our own prospects, but I don't see as Napoli alone getting someone like Heaney, and in order to keep a great prospect out of the deal, adding in "dimes" like Ranaudo, Middlebrooks and Wright. Heaney projects to be more of a bottom tier 1 / top tier 2 starting pitcher, whereas Owens has more "number 2" upside, but even this site talks about him being more of a middle rotation starter. Even if not using that immediately, that has great value (so yes, I think Heaney would have much more value as an asset than Napoli, and it's not even terribly close).
If we were able to sign Lester (as SP1) and trade Cespedes for SP2, I don't think the idea of trading Napoli and some of the 40man filler to acquire a potential front of the rotation starter is a bad plan. We also have more flexibility with a Nava / Craig platoon than with Napoli alone, and can of course move Ramirez to 1b IF Bradley were to rediscover his on-base ability that he demonstrated every year up to this one, Brentz can put together his power with a better hit tool and hide him in LF as well, or Cecchini proves that his second half in AAA and brief time in the majors is sustainable.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Nov 27, 2014 20:35:02 GMT -5
they say their dangling Heaney I don't know how they view Craig but a one-for-one wouldn't be bad for either side. Craig being one of the best clutch NL hitters a year ago on a team friendly contract for a top prospect in Heaney. I'm not that high on Heaney because of his velo but should be a very good pitcher in the future.
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Post by jrffam05 on Nov 27, 2014 22:21:17 GMT -5
I think Craig is undervalued right now, or could be over valued by other teams. It isn't unthinkable that another team could write off 2014 and look at Craig as a good player on a good contract. Also to throw in, Miami has also had interest in the past.
Honestly don't know if this trade is fair, but what about Craig, middlebrooks, and ranaudo/Sanchez for Cosarrt? (Brothers in same org would be cool)
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