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Post by elguapo on Dec 10, 2014 1:59:59 GMT -5
On the bright side, we still get to enjoy Pedroia's decline stage.
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Post by bigbatter on Dec 10, 2014 2:07:52 GMT -5
Yeah he chose the place that offered more $$$ despite everything he said, shocker. Is the word "fraud" banned? Not sure what's wrong with it when it's perfectly applicable to this situation. You can express your displeasure without the need to call someone a "fraud." We try to stay away from personal attacks on players around here. Really? I understand you're trying to manage a respectable forum but I think you're nitpicking here. Maybe because I'm new? I highly doubt this "personal attack" offended anyone (I'm sorry if it did). If this is wrong, I don't want to be right. Perhaps I'm on the wrong forum. Lester is a fraud. I'm just calling a spade a spade here.
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Post by xanderbogaerts2 on Dec 10, 2014 2:09:02 GMT -5
David is probably piss. I wasn't that mad until I heard Joe Maddon started doing victory laps in the hotel lobby.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 10, 2014 2:09:54 GMT -5
@bnightengale: Lester could earn $170 million over 7 years if the #Cubs pick up his option in 2021.
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Post by thursty on Dec 10, 2014 2:11:42 GMT -5
Yeah he chose the place that offered more $$$ despite everything he said, shocker. Is the word "fraud" banned? Not sure what's wrong with it when it's perfectly applicable to this situation. You can express your displeasure without the need to call someone a "fraud." We try to stay away from personal attacks on players around here. Stop preaching and scolding like some schoolmistress. I think we're all adult enough that we can handle uses of "fraud" Jeesh
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Post by templeusox on Dec 10, 2014 2:16:00 GMT -5
Please keep Mookie.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 10, 2014 2:16:44 GMT -5
You can express your displeasure without the need to call someone a "fraud." We try to stay away from personal attacks on players around here. Stop preaching and scolding like some schoolmistress. I think we're all adult enough that we can handle uses of "fraud" Jeesh You guys can go read the Forum Ground Rules BTW this getting to be off topic if you have any problems with my directions contact me via pm.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 10, 2014 2:17:14 GMT -5
Like I said. Sox said no to Mookie numerous times. They are not stupid and I highly doubt they make a panic movie.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 2:17:48 GMT -5
Haha. Your logic is really crude and completely wrong. You give up the opportunity to keep the top talent at reasonable price while giving generous contracts to B type players. Now you are saying people to criticize ownership are idiots? How much would you have given lester if he was a FA after the 2012 season where he pitched like crap? He had a career year in his contract year. And those are not B players. Maybe that's why the Redsox final offer too Lester was six years and $135MM because he pitch like crap in 2012 lol. Good bye too Blake Swihart and Henry Owens for Cole Hamels. Time for the Redsox too panic and save face.
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 10, 2014 2:21:20 GMT -5
How much would you have given lester if he was a FA after the 2012 season where he pitched like crap? He had a career year in his contract year. And those are not B players. Maybe that's why the Redsox final offer too Lester was six years and $135MM because he pitch like crap in 2012 lol. Good bye too Blake Swihart and Henry Owens for Cole Hamels. Time for the Redsox too panic and save face. So you think the sox FO is stupid then? They do not make panic moves FFS
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Post by thursty on Dec 10, 2014 2:26:24 GMT -5
I'll be interested in how this plays out the next couple of days, viz. whether there will be any recriminations within the FO. Although there was clearly a healthy dose of hypocrisy from the Lester camp, and I can't know how the negotiations are viewed by different FO personnel, I'd be surprised if there isn't a sizable contingent that believes the initial offer was a big mistake (and believed it contemporaneously), and if that contingent includes John Henry, who then put his prestige on the line by supplicating himself, well . . . he can't be too happy. billionaires don't like to lose
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 10, 2014 2:28:21 GMT -5
I was glad ownership stepped up and offered 6 years and 135. That was more then I think Lester is worth, but would have been happy do to our need. I just don't get it, 20 million over 6 years is not a huge difference. His life style wouldn't change. So for that 20 million he goes to a rebuilding team that has a lot of good prospects and some good young players, but just hasn't been any good for years. I don't see the Cubs making the playoffs next year, unless they make a bunch more moves. To hear that he wants to create a legacy with the Cubs makes me upset. What the chance to win 3,4, 5 championships and go down as the best left handed started in the history of the club isn't enough?
I want to thank Jon for what he did for the Red Sox. That said, I lost a lot of respect for Lester today. It came down to money and that's sad. I know people are going to say good for him, take what you can. That's true for Andrew Miller type players on his first big pay day, not so true for Jon Lester. Lester has already made more then he's likely to spend in his lifetime.
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Post by thursty on Dec 10, 2014 2:31:37 GMT -5
Does anyone here truly believe that Hanley Ramirez is worth $22 million/year but Jon Lester isn't worth a dime more than the $22.5 million/year the Red Sox offered him? I think a strong case can be made that a healthy Hanley has more value than a healthy Lester, yes. It really comes down to a projection of their health
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 10, 2014 2:34:19 GMT -5
Does anyone here truly believe that Hanley Ramirez is worth $22 million/year but Jon Lester isn't worth a dime more than the $22.5 million/year the Red Sox offered him? It's not the per year number, its the years. I'm sure the Red Sox would pay Lester 25 million on a 4 year deal. They gave more per year to Ramirez so they could keep the term shorter.
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Post by supersquid on Dec 10, 2014 2:37:57 GMT -5
Well that one ended with a real gut punch. Tough to see a stand up guy like lester leave the organization, but it is a business first and foremost and sometimes that's how the cookie crumbles. Cespedes seems to be next domino to fall.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 2:38:01 GMT -5
Maybe that's why the Redsox final offer too Lester was six years and $135MM because he pitch like crap in 2012 lol. Good bye too Blake Swihart and Henry Owens for Cole Hamels. Time for the Redsox too panic and save face. So you think the sox FO is stupid then? They do not make panic moves FFS When NESN rating are down yes they will make dump moves like Carl Crawford. Now you have NESN rating down and there radio broadcast contract is up. They will sell the farm to be a playoff contender.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 10, 2014 2:47:10 GMT -5
If the Red Sox were going to make a panic move wouldn't it be like: "gee the fans really want Lester back let's offer him whatever it takes." Well they didn't panic they had their valuation and pretty much stayed there.
I just don't see how all of the sudden they are gonna reverse course and start panicking. Lester was a free agent, not of their property, so even if ideally they would have liked to bring him back they had to plan if he went elsewhere.
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Post by elguapo on Dec 10, 2014 2:48:34 GMT -5
On the bright side, we lost Lester to our old management, which is very similar to our current management. So we can hopefully skip the bit about how the Cubs front office was dumb to sign him and the Sox front office was smart not to, and vice versa. One team was willing to pay free agent rates for a top starter, one wasn't. That's all.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 10, 2014 2:50:58 GMT -5
John Smoltz just said that Lester would likely have taken a lower salary and stayed in Boston had the team not traded him. Who cares what he thinks? This isn't the end of the world...
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Post by jclmontana on Dec 10, 2014 3:09:01 GMT -5
The narratives are so strikingly different for the Red Sox and the Cubs. For the Cubs, this signing signals an intention to compete and the end of a perpetual rebuilding process. They needed this signing, or one very much like it. Along with getting Maddon to manage, the intangibles of signing Lester really do excuse the mega bucks and the spectre of some hideous value at the end of the contract. If the Cubs failed to get Lester, it would be a temporary setback, but still a reminder of long suffering irrelevancy.
If the sox got Lester, the narrative would be along the lines of "Yankees in the north" and more worried hand wringing over drifting from their commitment to restraint and strategic spending. As it is, I think there will be equal parts relief and recrimination over not signing him. BC will be scrutinized and criticised for his effort to sign him, and ultimatley failing to do so. But Theo will get a free pass and be seen as a hero for closing the deal.
The Sox need a good pitcher, but signing Lester would not have been so significant as it is for the cubbies. The Cubs "won" the battle for Lester, and for long suffering franchises, that kind of symbolic win is important. Not so much for the sox. The sox will just move on to other fish in the sea, hopefully better and cheaper fish.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 10, 2014 3:21:54 GMT -5
“@jeffpassan: Jon Lester, Cubs agree on six-year, $155M deal, sources tell Yahoo Sports. Red Sox are runners-up. Their final bid: six for $135M.” Let's assume these numbers are correct. Something around $135M from the Sox was reported like a week ago, so they have obviously been firm. The fact that the process took this long seems to indicate that Lester indeed really preferred going to Boston and was torn by whether $20M was too much of a discount. You have to think another $10M and/or a 7th year vesting option would have sealed the deal. That said, $22.5M per year is plenty. Interestingly it is almost the exact same AAV as Cole Hamels gets, so they would surely be hard-pressed to explain why they thought Cole Hamels had significant trade value if they end up trading top prospects for him. (As for "this FO does not make panic moves", they apparently make an exception for Boras clients like Stephen Drew, but in general I would agree that not going higher on Lester indicates a state of non-panic.)
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danr
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Post by danr on Dec 10, 2014 3:53:57 GMT -5
A couple of weeks ago we were discussing what Lester's fair market value was. I suggested it was $25 million per year. A couple of days ago I said a 7th year performance option could be added. It seems the Cubs did both.
I thought he would sign with the Sox, but I thought they would get to the $25 million figure. They apparently decided that was too much, and they probably are right, but I think they could have gone a little higher. But, maybe they realized that Theo had sold Lester on the idea of becoming a bigger hero there than he could be the Sox. If he gets them a WS win, he will be. He will be the center of the Cubs resurgence. He would not be that with the Sox. Very important, yes, but there are others who share the spotlight. So, let's see what happens. Maybe in a couple of years the 1918 WS will be replayed.
The Sox can still be a dominant team without him. There are plenty of options. I would try hard to get Hamels, but I would not give up Betts, Bogaerts or Swihart, and I don't think they have to. I also would try very hard to get Porcello, and that shouldn't be all that hard to do. I'd offer Buchholz to the Tigers with Cespedes. That ought to do it.
I think Shields is going to get bid up, but maybe not nearly as much as Lester did. They should make a play for him, maybe a four year deal at $20M per year. They also could add a little bit to their offer to Masterson.
There are deals to be done.
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Post by GyIantosca on Dec 10, 2014 4:46:12 GMT -5
I know the talk shows are gonna be out of control. I agree I wait to see what they do. Lester had a good year last year but the year before he wasn't so great. The Cubs gave him a 7 year vesting option. those numbers are out of control.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 10, 2014 6:01:28 GMT -5
This is a tough ending for the Red Sox FO. It does seem like they pulled out all the stops to try and get him back. It's also sad...as a big fan of the club...to lose guys that you have been rooting for for so long.
It's be easy to rant...but really....it was Lester's choice and he made his decision. Thanks for all the wonderful years and good luck in Chicago...in as much as you have zero success if you play the Red Sox.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 10, 2014 6:20:04 GMT -5
It never ceases to amaze the over-reactive nature of Sox fans. Those of you b------- and complaining need to put your emotions aside and get a reality check. I get that markets change, but NOONE was willing to go even as high as 6/135 a month ago and now all of a sudden, it's this FO is foolish for not going higher and sealing the deal. The whole "they should have signed him sooner" argument is foolish as well as its pure speculation that this was even possible. Lester didn't negotiate at all. That's more damning than an initial low offer. Stop placing blame and crying that now they are going to sell the farm.
REALITY CHECK: Don't you think they already have a very good idea as to the trade costs of different pitchers? If they didn't panic and held ground with Lester why would they all of a sudden panic and trade X, Betts or Swithart for Hamels? I guess you can never say never, but the reactions are childish.
And if they do end up with Hamels, he's better and more consistent than Lester so that is not a bad thing.
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