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2015 HOF class; The line forms behind Pedro
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 7, 2015 9:37:58 GMT -5
Thats before even mentioning the eye test C'mon man. The first player busted for steroids was Alex Sanchez. There is no "eye test." Ryan Franklin was skinny, Bartolo Colon is fat, and Gabe Kapler has the biggest muscles I've ever seen on a baseball player. Which ones were the steroid users?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 7, 2015 9:57:46 GMT -5
Thats before even mentioning the eye test C'mon man. The first player busted for steroids was Alex Sanchez. There is no "eye test." Ryan Franklin was skinny, Bartolo Colon is fat, and Gabe Kapler has the biggest muscles I've ever seen on a baseball player. Which ones were the steroid users? Ah yes, the never-fail EYE TEST:
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 7, 2015 10:01:56 GMT -5
No way who was that guy with the Sox in spring training the year Canseco got here? Huge guns- bigger than Canseco... Christ I can't remember his name. African American dude - never officially played for them but he was at spring training that year... This ring a bell to anyone?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 7, 2015 10:16:01 GMT -5
Who's to say he didn't? These kind of assumptions drive me crazy. We don't know who used, period. When they remove every pre-integration player from the HOF, maybe I'll care about PED users being in there. There is zero evidence Pedro used and a large amount with Clemens/Bonds. Thats before even mentioning the eye test which makes it pretty obvious when comparing with the evidence. Its a pretty straightforward approach and the most fair in my eyes. Clemens and Bonds need asterisks next to their stats and awards too.Again, just as soon as we assign asterisks to pre-integration players and kick them out of the HOF, we can talk about this. Until then I don't want to hear about it. By the way, I'm dead serious about this argument. I'm not making it as a way of excusing PED guys; I'd be making it if PEDs never existed. It just so happens that it does excuse PED guys to a large extent, at least as far as their moral worthiness for HOF induction is concerned. Segregated baseball undoubtedly gave white players an advantage and inflated their numbers. It inflicted far more collateral damage than steroid use did. And the players/managers/GMs/owners of that era where largely complicit; they were not innocent bystanders while some outside force excluded non-whites from the game. So give Ruth and Cobb their own special wing of the HOF. Put asterisks next to their numbers. Then we'll talk about doing the same for PED users. Until then spare me the outrage.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 7, 2015 10:27:39 GMT -5
I don't necessarily disagree with you there. Doesn't mean we have to give Clemens a Hall of Fame bid.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 7, 2015 11:12:40 GMT -5
No way who was that guy with the Sox in spring training the year Canseco got here? Huge guns- bigger than Canseco... Christ I can't remember his name. African American dude - never officially played for them but he was at spring training that year... This ring a bell to anyone? Pat Lennon. Spent some time in the majors with the Mariners and the A's. Yeah, that guy was enormous.
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Post by urgent on Jan 7, 2015 12:56:16 GMT -5
The baseball writer's idiotic tradition of not unanimously voting for ballplayers always stuns me.
Randy Johnson was on 534 ballots, but not the other 14? According to ESPN: In 1936, the first year of Hall balloting, Ty Cobb received all but four votes. Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner were not named on 11 ballots. How do you know that you are one of only four idiots not taking things seriously, but that the majority of the voters are acting objectively?
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Post by jrffam05 on Jan 7, 2015 13:00:02 GMT -5
My biggest issue with PED's and hall of fame voting is when voters make a assumption. If you want to say that the preponderance of evidence says that Clemens and Bonds used steroids and that should prevent them from making the HOF, I will think your reasoning is stupid but at least you made a logical argument. When you assume Piazza did steroids because he is big, or turn in a blank ballot because you can't tell who did steroids or not (including Maddux or Pedro) it is acting irresponsible, these are the people I don't think deserve a vote. You are talking about a sample size of the best ball players in the world, they are going to be strong, athletic, even unnatural at times.
As for Bonds and Clemens, I think they should be in, based on what they did in their career and the culture of the time. I'm not saying PED use is right, but it was both accepted and ignored in that time. Categorizing these players as cheaters and not deserving opens a can of worms. What about Gaylord Perry's and Whitey Ford doctoring balls, Ty Cobb sharpening his cleats to scare infielders, or anyone who played in Toronto because of the chance they had someone stealing signs? Let's get more farfetched and talk about George Brett's pine tar or Derek Jeter faking getting hit by a ball, isn't that cheating? It's pretty well known that most pitchers today use some sort of foreign substance on balls, should that disqualify all pitchers? How do we know which batters were shaving or corking their bats? Bonds and Clemens used PED's at a time when it wasn't punished and a good amount of other players used them, they were also two of the best baseball players to ever live.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 7, 2015 13:55:36 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 7, 2015 14:14:48 GMT -5
No way who was that guy with the Sox in spring training the year Canseco got here? Huge guns- bigger than Canseco... Christ I can't remember his name. African American dude - never officially played for them but he was at spring training that year... This ring a bell to anyone? Pat Lennon. Spent some time in the majors with the Mariners and the A's. Yeah, that guy was enormous. Thank you!! I kept thinking lemon
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Post by jrffam05 on Jan 7, 2015 15:07:12 GMT -5
Bonds leaked grand jury testimony includes an admission of PED use. And yet you still want to let him into the Hall of Fame?
Yea, I think so. I wouldn't ignore an era of baseball, and I think he used at a time that it was widespread throughout the game.
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Post by raftsox on Jan 7, 2015 16:24:35 GMT -5
My biggest issue with PED's and hall of fame voting is when voters make a assumption. If you want to say that the preponderance of evidence says that Clemens and Bonds used steroids and that should prevent them from making the HOF, I will think your reasoning is stupid but at least you made a logical argument. When you assume Piazza did steroids because he is big, or turn in a blank ballot because you can't tell who did steroids or not (including Maddux or Pedro) it is acting irresponsible, these are the people I don't think deserve a vote. You are talking about a sample size of the best ball players in the world, they are going to be strong, athletic, even unnatural at times.
Bonds leaked grand jury testimony includes an admission of PED use. And yet you still want to let him into the Hall of Fame?
Who cares?! Bonds was an amazing player to watch. A player who dominated his Era. I don't care that he may have cheated. I don't care that many people throughout the history of baseball played without integration or have played on acid, coke or drunk. What matters is the entertainment they have provided to us fans.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 7, 2015 17:12:08 GMT -5
Bonds leaked grand jury testimony includes an admission of PED use. And yet you still want to let him into the Hall of Fame?
Who cares?! Bonds was an amazing player to watch. A player who dominated his Era. I don't care that he may have cheated. I don't care that many people throughout the history of baseball played without integration or have played on acid, coke or drunk. What matters is the entertainment they have provided to us fans. May have cheated? His head grew an entire hat size and he had an 11.6 WAR season at age 40? And he had 4 of his best 5 seasons from ages 37-40? He may have cheated? It's not so much that the entire era was cheating, it's that Bonds was cheating so much more than anyone else. I'm surprised he's not dead yet.
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Post by southernredsoxality on Jan 7, 2015 17:20:01 GMT -5
Would any of you guys on your moral high horse like to provide us with a scientific study proving a direct correlation between steroid use and being better at baseball, or should we just keep taking your opinion as fact?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 7, 2015 17:44:45 GMT -5
Who cares?! Bonds was an amazing player to watch. A player who dominated his Era. I don't care that he may have cheated. I don't care that many people throughout the history of baseball played without integration or have played on acid, coke or drunk. What matters is the entertainment they have provided to us fans. May have cheated? His head grew an entire hat size and he had an 11.6 WAR season at age 40? And he had 4 of his best 5 seasons from ages 37-40? He may have cheated? It's not so much that the entire era was cheating, it's that Bonds was cheating so much more than anyone else. I'm surprised he's not dead yet. That is a very silly thing to say.
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Post by bball798 on Jan 7, 2015 17:46:40 GMT -5
Who cares?! Bonds was an amazing player to watch. A player who dominated his Era. I don't care that he may have cheated. I don't care that many people throughout the history of baseball played without integration or have played on acid, coke or drunk. What matters is the entertainment they have provided to us fans. May have cheated? His head grew an entire hat size and he had an 11.6 WAR season at age 40? And he had 4 of his best 5 seasons from ages 37-40? He may have cheated? It's not so much that the entire era was cheating, it's that Bonds was cheating so much more than anyone else. I'm surprised he's not dead yet. So is Randy Johnson a no doubt hall of famer? 4 sub 4.00 ERA seasons after the age of 40. Including his age 40 season where he threw 245 innings with a 2.60 ERA. But he's unanimously considered clean because he wasn't in the Mitchell Report? That seems fairly hypocritical to me.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 7, 2015 17:49:32 GMT -5
Should players that used greenies be in the Hall?
Should Ty Cobb, who was pretty much incontrovertibly a despicable human being, be in the hall?
As far as I'm concerned, it's a hall of "fame." I get that "integrity" is in the voting guidelines, but so is "sportsmanship" and you get jackasses like Cobb in there, so it's all relative. I'd put Bonds, Clemens, Pete Rose, Joe Jackson,* and the rest in there. Then include on their plaques all the good and bad.
* - I understand that the issue with Rose and Jackson is that they're on baseball's "ineligible list" and are thus excluded from Hall voting.
Give me a Hall of Fame that when I take my kid to it years down the line, it has every player of significance. Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were probably the best hitter and pitcher of their generation. Bonds is arguably the best player ever. It's insane to me not to have them in the hall.
And again, steroids don't make a replacement level player an MVP candidate. Let's stop acting like this is Steve Rogers becoming Captain America using science. I can get using steroid suspicions against a fringy candidate as a tick in the "negative" column. I think it's insane to have it be something that keeps clear HOFers out.
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Post by m1keyboots on Jan 7, 2015 17:49:36 GMT -5
Would any of you guys on your moral high horse like to provide us with a scientific study proving a direct correlation between steroid use and being better at baseball, or should we just keep taking your opinion as fact? Yes Bonds cheated and it helped him, did it give him the ability that separated him from everyone else? To wait 3 at bats, maybe 3 days for a pitch to hit and consistently barrel it u? "he cheated so much more than others" how could one possibly know that? Could it be that every person that cheated took their cycles and it helped the elite do things thought magical? While helping Jay gibbons hit 30 bombs one year and Brad Fullmer be somewhat productive for a couple years and so on and so forth. It's not like all the other PED users wouldnt cross an invisible line while Bonds did
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 7, 2015 17:51:03 GMT -5
Yea, I think so. I wouldn't ignore an era of baseball, and I think he used at a time that it was widespread throughout the game. You just said that people who make assumptions are irresponsible and then you turn around and say you "think" there was widespread PED use in baseball? The Mitchell Report named 88 players. These are the players currently being tainted by the PED scandal. These names account for less than 10% of the players who played during the period in question. As in all walks of life, in baseball you have both cheaters and honest folks. What is irresponsible is to attempt to taint the majority of honest people by attributing to them the conduct of the guilty minority.
This is also really silly. As if the Mitchell Report is anywhere close to a comprehensive list of people who used.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 7, 2015 18:20:54 GMT -5
Bonds leaked grand jury testimony includes an admission of PED use. And yet you still want to let him into the Hall of Fame?
Who cares?! Bonds was an amazing player to watch. A player who dominated his Era. I don't care that he may have cheated. I don't care that many people throughout the history of baseball played without integration or have played on acid, coke or drunk. What matters is the entertainment they have provided to us fans. I care, and so do roughly 2/3 of the voters. Their cheating led to stat padding, took awards from more deserving players and gained an unfair advantage over legitimate players. They should be made an example of. Im very glad they won't be in the Hall when I visit.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jan 7, 2015 18:33:16 GMT -5
The point (among other points made) that some have been trying to make, however, is that there have been players throughout history that have cheated, prevented others from competing against them, and taken substances to help them and ultimately pad their stats to the detriment of others. So why are these PED users any different? What makes their form of 'cheating' special and deserving of exclusion from the HOF?
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 7, 2015 18:34:35 GMT -5
Would any of you guys on your moral high horse like to provide us with a scientific study proving a direct correlation between steroid use and being better at baseball, or should we just keep taking your opinion as fact?
So you're saying that Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte were in the same bathroom stall injecting each other's buttocks just for s$!ts and giggles? *giggles sophomorically* Ahem. It will be interesting to see if there are idiots who vote yes on Pettitte but no on Clemens.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 7, 2015 19:15:54 GMT -5
The point (among other points made) that some have been trying to make, however, is that there have been players throughout history that have cheated, prevented others from competing against them, and taken substances to help them and ultimately pad their stats to the detriment of others. So why are these PED users any different? What makes their form of 'cheating' special and deserving of exclusion from the HOF? The voters don't really have any control over that. Call me crazy but the Hall of Fame and the voters don't owe it to Clemens and Bonds to put them in. They've already scammed the system and should be content with the extra career earnings they got.
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Post by southernredsoxality on Jan 7, 2015 19:19:16 GMT -5
Would any of you guys on your moral high horse like to provide us with a scientific study proving a direct correlation between steroid use and being better at baseball, or should we just keep taking your opinion as fact?
So you're saying that Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte were in the same bathroom stall injecting each other's buttocks just for shits and giggles?
Oh yeah, here are the scientific studies that you could have Googled for yourself:
baseball.physics.illinois.edu/Tobin_AJP_Jan08.pdf
baseball.physics.illinois.edu/BRJ-Steroids-v3.pdf
Wow, did you even read these? Here's a quote from the first useless gathering of mumbo jumbo you provided: "In view of the known influence of anabolic steroids on protein synthesis and their well-studied muscle-building ef- ficacy in medical applications, most experts are convinced that they also enhance lean muscle mass in healthy adults and specifically in athletes, at least when combined with ad- equate nutrition and a rigorous program of weight training. Rigorous controlled experiments demonstrat- ing such an effect are scarce, and studies directly investigat- ing effects on athletic performance (other than weightlifting) do not exist." Here's another gem: "These results certainly do not prove that recent performances are tainted, but they suggest that some suspi- cion is reasonable." Try harder.
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on Jan 7, 2015 19:45:55 GMT -5
Would any of you guys on your moral high horse like to provide us with a scientific study proving a direct correlation between steroid use and being better at baseball, or should we just keep taking your opinion as fact? This is my thought as well. Remove steroids from the equation, but leave the era's strike zone and live ball, and wouldn't Bonds still be thought of as the best player in the game's history by many (like me, for one)? I've thought the era was more a culmination of influences brought by Selig to increase interest in the game. And it worked.
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