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2015 Official Spring Training thread
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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 4, 2015 13:34:07 GMT -5
....or his flexibility. 240 lbs. on 6'2" invokes images of a lumbering, stiff guy in the field and at the plate...even if it is all muscle...bound up. Panda is too fat, Hanley is too ripped, Sox nation looks for it's Goldilocks Well we can't have it all to be sure and no one is arguing that. But I don't think anyone would argue either that if Panda and Hanley could drop some weight, they would be a bit more agile. Panda was proud to announce that he has already dropped 5 pounds so he recognizes the benefit of less heft. Outfielders Rice & Canseco were big bodied and ripped but not very agile. Jonny Gomes, listed at 6'1" and 230 was not an athletic looking outfielder and likely had questionable range. Maybe there are (have been) a lot of heavy bodied, heavily muscled guys who are (were) great outfielders with fantastic range, but I suspect that they are more on the rare side with the trade-off being their offensive potential. Gabe Kapler, who became a weightlifting devotee, hit 33 homers in 1640 official ML at bats following his 25 year old season (one every 50 ABs). I don't recall a long home run from him strong as he was. Kapler, listed at 6'2" 190, was a good fielder with a strong arm so he was not weight-encumbered. Papi has gently chided Panda about his weight and told Ramirez not to get any bigger from weightlifting. At some point there can be too much muscle or too much weight or too much of both which would negatively influence performance. Hopefully that is not the case with Panda or Ramirez.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 4, 2015 13:37:24 GMT -5
Nick Cafardo ?@nickcafardo 22s23 seconds ago Gateway, FL Rusney Castillo has a strained left oblique and will miss at least a week. Betts in the drivers seat Rob Bradford ?@bradfo 53s54 seconds ago Castillo has s strained left oblique. "Down for some time" says Farrell. More than a week If it's a couple of weeks or more, he probably starts in Pawtucket, and the dreaded Opening Day OF surplus magically disappears. I've wondered to myself if the plan was to option one of Betts or Castillo for a month or so, then move Shanf when he proved himself healthy. That, of course, assumes health all around. Huge assumption, obviously. I'll say it again - if 2012 taught Cherington one thing, it's the importance of depth.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 4, 2015 13:39:49 GMT -5
I've seen Cano at SS and Middlebrooks at 2B for an inning, so although it's unlikely it wouldn't surprise me to see Han-Ram play a couple innings at SS, but I can't imagine him spending any meaningful time there. I think they would make a Herrera type trade before they consider Hanley moving to SS. He was signed for his high potential bat. You never know what can happen. If you recall the game the Yankees played the Sox in 04 where Jeter dove into the stands the Yankees wound up with a left side of the infield combination of A-Rod at SS and Gary Sheffield at 3b, which is something you wouldn't anticipate. I don't expect Hanley to play any SS for the Sox, but you never know what can happen within a game, particularly with the Sox not really having a prototypical backup SS type. Brock Holt plays SS, but he's more of a 2b. Obviously if Bogaerts needs a day off or is injured for a day or two, you're looking at Brock Holt at SS, and if there's a longer-term injury the Sox will call up Marrero.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 4, 2015 13:43:04 GMT -5
If it's a couple of weeks or more, he probably starts in Pawtucket, and the dreaded Opening Day OF surplus magically disappears. I've wondered to myself if the plan was to option one of Betts or Castillo for a month or so, then move Shanf when he proved himself healthy. That, of course, assumes health all around. Huge assumption, obviously. I'll say it again - if 2012 taught Cherington one thing, it's the importance of depth. At first I thought it was just lip service that the Sox would have Victorino in RF as the starter, but now I think the Sox will keep him and start Betts in CF. Between the injury histories of Hanley and Victorino, there should be plenty of ABs for Castillo, who is now, of course, injured. I do think that once Castillo is healthy, the Sox will deal Allen Craig. Ultimately I expect the Sox to use a 4 man bench consisting of Hanigan, Holt, Castillo, and Nava, and go with 12 pitchers.
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Post by soxcentral on Mar 4, 2015 13:52:10 GMT -5
Outfielders Rice & Canseco were big bodied and ripped but not very agile. At some point there can be too much muscle or too much weight or too much of both which would negatively influence performance. Hopefully that is not the case with Panda or Ramirez. Not sure about the others, but in Jose Canseco's case I don't think he was very athletic to begin with but developed the size and explosiveness that came from a long period of performance enhancers. And he had the ability to hit a baseball, but that does not have much to do with agility. My point is that being big and strong looking does not necessarily mean you are not agile too. Sometimes its the players who make it because they are strong that fuel this idea even though they were not all that athletic to begin with. I guess Hanley will be an interesting person to watch if you believe one side of this issue or the other.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 4, 2015 13:58:54 GMT -5
This is Yohan Blake, the second-fastest man in the world. He's also about 5'11". Muscles don't limit agility if you build them correctly.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 4, 2015 14:15:52 GMT -5
I'll see that and raise you Bo Jackson.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 4, 2015 14:41:17 GMT -5
People may need to re-orient their thinking about this. While it's true that care has to be taken with which muscle groups you work with when lifting, the fact is that IGF-1, or insulin growth factor has a genetic basis. From Scientific American: Some people are just naturally more muscled than others. There are endless examples, many from other sports, such as basketball. I watched Tony Gonzalez play power forward when he was at Cal Berkeley. You'd never want to call the guy muscle bound, at least not to his face, he was so athletic. It was no great surprise that he was one of the best tight ends ever to play the game. He was way to agile for the typical linebacker to cover: And how about this guy, Dan Majerle:
Watch this video, and you may just decide that agility isn't an inverse function of muscle mass:
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 4, 2015 14:46:40 GMT -5
Mike Trout seems to be that kind of athlete. They are very rare, even moreso in baseball.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 4, 2015 14:56:43 GMT -5
That was noted in Gammons article about Moncada, with someone on the Sox saying these sort of athletes don't make it into baseball in the States these days. They usually end up in one of the other sports.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Mar 4, 2015 15:04:09 GMT -5
I've wondered to myself if the plan was to option one of Betts or Castillo for a month or so, then move Shanf when he proved himself healthy. That, of course, assumes health all around. Huge assumption, obviously. I'll say it again - if 2012 taught Cherington one thing, it's the importance of depth. At first I thought it was just lip service that the Sox would have Victorino in RF as the starter, but now I think the Sox will keep him and start Betts in CF. Between the injury histories of Hanley and Victorino, there should be plenty of ABs for Castillo, who is now, of course, injured. I do think that once Castillo is healthy, the Sox will deal Allen Craig. Ultimately I expect the Sox to use a 4 man bench consisting of Hanigan, Holt, Castillo, and Nava, and go with 12 pitchers. I'm more with Chris on Victorino as the trade candidate rather than Craig ... Craig could easily take over for Napoli next year at a significant AAV savings, if Craig is healthy and productive. Victorino's really only a factor this year since I highly doubt they'd pay him what it'd take to keep him beyond this year, if it came to that. Still, though, I think the Sox thinking is probably that trading anyone now is useless until they see how everyone looks, what injuries happen, etc. But I've had the same thought that either Betts/Castillo might go down for a bit to give Victorino a chance to prove his health. Meanwhile, why is there even a debate about Hanley's loss of agility? I mean, maybe he has or maybe he hasn't, but the guy's a left fielder, who needs much agility out there? I mean, the guy's not going to turn into a statue from a few extra pounds of muscle, and beyond that his agility is sorta beside the point, as far as I'm concerned. If he ever gets back into the infield, it'll probably be at first base. If he's stronger and he hits the ball farther, all good by me, no matter what it did to his agility.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,793
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Post by mobaz on Mar 4, 2015 15:06:34 GMT -5
I've seen Cano at SS and Middlebrooks at 2B for an inning, so although it's unlikely it wouldn't surprise me to see Han-Ram play a couple innings at SS, but I can't imagine him spending any meaningful time there. I think they would make a Herrera type trade before they consider Hanley moving to SS. He was signed for his high potential bat. You never know what can happen. If you recall the game the Yankees played the Sox in 04 where Jeter dove into the stands the Yankees wound up with a left side of the infield combination of A-Rod at SS and Gary Sheffield at 3b, which is something you wouldn't anticipate. I don't expect Hanley to play any SS for the Sox, but you never know what can happen within a game, particularly with the Sox not really having a prototypical backup SS type. Brock Holt plays SS, but he's more of a 2b. Obviously if Bogaerts needs a day off or is injured for a day or two, you're looking at Brock Holt at SS, and if there's a longer-term injury the Sox will call up Marrero. As for my original post, I was trying to imply that I don't see Hanley having a situational place in the infield; some folks have speculated he could play something like 10-15 games in the IF as rest day coverage and to open up at-bats for 4th outfielder if all here and healthy. I think that it would be ideal but doesn't seem feasible anymore. That said, looking forward to Han Ram mashing.
While we're harassing pro athletes about their physical appearance, I am excited to see Papi come to camp looking svelte. BSOHL.
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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 4, 2015 15:07:12 GMT -5
This is Yohan Blake, the second-fastest man in the world. He's also about 5'11". Muscles don't limit agility if you build them correctly. That may be true. In this case I am not sure that speed equates with agility or the opposite. I don't see many golfers (Tiger yes) with obviously muscular upper or lower bodies yet have fantastic 'bat speed'. I am pretty sure that those guys would do anything to hit the ball just a bit further given the nature of today's game with some courses at 7500 yards. Yup, a lot (most) have trainers but they know that muscle bulk does not translate into higher club-head speed. For them flexibility and extension are at least part of the game.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 4, 2015 15:20:45 GMT -5
Golf is different because you need pinpoint accuracy. Players want to hit the ball farther, yes - but the difference is that they have zero margin of accuracy to sacrifice. Whereas in baseball if adding muscle makes you slightly more of a pull hitter, that's cool. When you think of baseball players with historically elite bat speed, they are very often big, muscular guys. Inmy lifetime, guys like Canseco, Harper, Bonds, Guerrero, Sheffield.
It's possible to add muscle the wrong way and lose agility and batspeed and whatever else. Ruben Sierra is the prototype of this. Joe Torre also called Sierra the dumbest player he ever coached.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 4, 2015 15:34:36 GMT -5
Pointing out guys who are both muscular and agile is a little bit like pointing out good pitchers with average fastball velo or good NBA players with below average hight. Yes you can find examples but that doesn't necessarily mean that velo isn't important for pitchers or hight isn't important for basketball players. Yes, you do get players with the size and strength of Alex Rodriguez who still have the agility to play shortstop, but the fact is, the vast majority of shortstops have always been and will probably always be smaller players. Mass = inertia, there's no way around it.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 4, 2015 15:45:21 GMT -5
Pointing out guys who are both muscular and agile is a little bit like pointing out good pitchers with average fastball velo or good NBA players with below average hight. Yes you can find examples but that doesn't necessarily mean that velo isn't important for pitchers or hight isn't important for basketball players. Yes, you do get players with the size and strength of Alex Rodriguez who still have the agility to play shortstop, but the fact is, the vast majority of shortstops have always been and will probably always be smaller players. Mass = inertia, there's no way around it. Right. My point was more in reference to the idea that Hanley's added bulk will be a negative in general. Good defensive outfielders are both big and small, since getting reads and general speed can more than make up for an average-ish first step. And the point that adding muscles will hurt his batspeed seems even more unlikely. Anyway, the whole argument seems to be missing the more important point: Hanley wasn't signed to play shortstop, so him going on an outfielder's offseason regimen is a positive. It's a nice bit of positional flexibility to have a left fielder who can play shortstop, but it's more important to have a left fielder who is good at being a left fielder.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 4, 2015 16:07:44 GMT -5
I don't have a problem pointing at Hanley Ramirez and saying if he's athletic enough to be a mediocre shortstop, he's athletic enough to play at any other position on the field other than catcher and center field.
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Post by soxfanatic on Mar 4, 2015 16:46:03 GMT -5
Red Sox Stats ?@redsoxstats 5 min. In another interesting roster edit today, the Red Sox changed Rusney Castillo's birthday from September 7, 1987 to July 9, 1987
He aged two months because of that injury!
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Post by okin15 on Mar 4, 2015 17:13:05 GMT -5
It's amazing how these log-jams take care of themselves. It's for that reason that BC was willing to sacrifice a little talent on the 25-man to keep as much as possible on the 40-man last spring.
Am I right that Castillo's contract keeps running no matter what league he's in? I know it's a sunk cost, but it still is kind of a bummer to pay a guy 10.5 million to play in AAA.
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Post by kman22 on Mar 4, 2015 17:21:17 GMT -5
Red Sox Stats ?@redsoxstats 5 min. In another interesting roster edit today, the Red Sox changed Rusney Castillo's birthday from September 7, 1987 to July 9, 1987 He aged two months because of that injury! 9.7 can mean the same as 7.9
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 4, 2015 17:25:19 GMT -5
From Tim Britton's e-mail notes: Notable pitchers for the upcoming games, as posted in the clubhouse: Thursday at Minnesota Joe Kelly Matt Barnes Brian Johnson Junichi Tazawa Edward Mujica Alexi Ogando Robbie Ross Tommy Layne Heath Hembree Friday vs. Miami Justin Masterson Henry Owens Koji Uehara Saturday vs. Minnesota (ss) Clay Buchholz Craig Breslow Brandon Workman Anthony Varvaro Saturday at Baltimore (ss) Steven Wright Eduardo Rodriguez Edwin Escobar Sunday at New York Mets Rick Porcello Brian Johnson Heath Hembree Tommy Layne Robbie Ross Couch and Paulino being absent makes me think org views both as relievers. Johnson and Owens are listed despite being NRIs, but those four, Eveland, Boggs, Hinojosa aren't.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 4, 2015 17:44:28 GMT -5
Red Sox Stats ?@redsoxstats 5 min. In another interesting roster edit today, the Red Sox changed Rusney Castillo's birthday from September 7, 1987 to July 9, 1987 He aged two months because of that injury! 9.7 can mean the same as 7.9 and in much of the world it does. Good heads up, thanks.
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Post by soxfanatic on Mar 4, 2015 17:45:52 GMT -5
From Tim Britton's e-mail notes: Notable pitchers for the upcoming games, as posted in the clubhouse: Thursday at Minnesota Joe Kelly Matt Barnes Brian Johnson Junichi Tazawa Edward Mujica Alexi Ogando Robbie Ross Tommy Layne Heath Hembree Friday vs. Miami Justin Masterson Henry Owens Koji Uehara Saturday vs. Minnesota (ss) Clay Buchholz Craig Breslow Brandon Workman Anthony Varvaro Saturday at Baltimore (ss) Steven Wright Eduardo Rodriguez Edwin Escobar Sunday at New York Mets Rick Porcello Brian Johnson Heath Hembree Tommy Layne Robbie Ross Couch and Paulino being absent makes me think org views both as relievers. Johnson and Owens are listed despite being NRIs, but those four, Eveland, Boggs, Hinojosa aren't. In the Spanish article that first reported the Paulino signing, it was noted he would report to camp as a reliever.
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Post by soxfan06 on Mar 4, 2015 18:48:36 GMT -5
I didn't mean to start a huge debate with my comments on HanRam's arms. I was just pointing out something I saw.
Not to mention, I think it is a fantastic thing that he is that big. We absolutely needed another middle of the order power bat.
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Post by bluechip on Mar 4, 2015 20:38:18 GMT -5
Nick Cafardo ?@nickcafardo 22s23 seconds ago Gateway, FL Rusney Castillo has a strained left oblique and will miss at least a week. Betts in the drivers seat Rob Bradford ?@bradfo 53s54 seconds ago Castillo has s strained left oblique. "Down for some time" says Farrell. More than a week If it's a couple of weeks or more, he probably starts in Pawtucket, and the dreaded Opening Day OF surplus magically disappears. If it's a couple weeks or more, it might be extended spring training.
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