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Post by jdb on May 18, 2014 12:32:25 GMT -5
Any reports on his D this year?
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,793
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Post by nomar on May 18, 2014 12:41:33 GMT -5
Any reports on his D this year? Reports say they chose Holt over Cecchini because he isn't ready defensively. His FRAA suggests that he's been slightly above average though. I think they don't want to hurt his confidence by saying this, but he isn't offensively ready. He isn't driving the ball.
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Post by jimed14 on May 18, 2014 12:47:39 GMT -5
Any reports on his D this year? Reports say they chose Holt over Cecchini because he isn't ready defensively. His FRAA suggests that he's been slightly above average though. I think they don't want to hurt his confidence by saying this, but he isn't offensively ready. He isn't driving the ball. I'm really skeptical that Cecchini's bat is anywhere near ready. His K-rate is the same as JBJ's was in AAA and JBJ has 3 times the power as Cecchini.
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Post by terriblehondo on May 18, 2014 13:38:49 GMT -5
4 Errors in 4 games last week. His D is not close to being ready. He also has no power at all. Holt at this time is a way better option.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 18, 2014 20:25:06 GMT -5
Any reports on his D this year? I apologize that I don't have time to post links, but it's been discussed a number of times on the News Page and on the Podcast.
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Post by jmei on Jun 4, 2014 8:57:53 GMT -5
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Post by tonyc on Jun 4, 2014 11:07:57 GMT -5
I'll attempt to quantify- 1. 6'2" 220 2. Power usually comes later 3. Fenway left field, but then again remember Bob Zupcic- built even bigger, but 7 homeruns lifetime
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,298
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Post by radiohix on Jun 4, 2014 11:28:14 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 4, 2014 11:36:39 GMT -5
That's an intriguing way of looking at it. Obviously, we're not comparing them directly though.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Jun 4, 2014 11:48:48 GMT -5
I know you weren't making the comp and just highlighting that point, but Votto slugged .540+ in his AA time at the same age as Cecchini's ~.400, so even if Cameron's right, the opposite field power is of a radically different nature.
Still, though, I haven't given up on Cecchini by any means, still think he's a good prospect (as does Sickels), but his history of sub-par power has gotten long enough that it's a real concern.
edit: that wasn't clear, so let me add ... Cecchini really hasn't demonstrated any opposite field power at a higher level yet because he hasn't demonstrated any power at a higher level. He uses the whole field, but I'm not sure that's the same point.
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Post by jmei on Jun 4, 2014 12:20:55 GMT -5
For what it's worth, here's Cecchini's 2014 Pawtucket spray chart, courtesy MLBfarm: He does seem to flash a good bit of opposite-field power, and a few of those fly balls might go off the wall in Fenway as opposed to being caught. But it's not like he's been driving balls for home runs to the opposite field, and I don't think he'll ever have the Votto-esque strength to drive balls out the other way. Most guys who can do that are big strong 1B types (also think Ryan Howard or Adrian Gonzalez), and while Cecchini is no shrimp, he doesn't really fit that profile. Even if he adds a handful of doubles, his bat might still not be enough to carry him if he has to move off 3B. He'll also play half his games on the road, where wallball doubles are likely to become long fly outs. But my real takeaway is that it's staggering how little pull power he's flashed-- there's that one home run, and literally nothing else. He'll have trouble at the MLB level without the ability to pull the ball, as guys will just pitch him in with fastballs, knowing that he can't really hurt them. He was a little better at pulling the ball in 2013, so maybe this is just a small sample size thing this year, but it's definitely something that is worrisome.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jun 4, 2014 12:30:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this has been noted yet but Chick-Key-Knee is in LF tonight. Is that his first start in the OF?
Edit: Nevermind.... I just realized this was a sarcastic post on the ProJo Chat.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 4, 2014 12:42:41 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this has been noted yet but Chick-Key-Knee is in LF tonight. Is that his first start in the OF? Edit: Nevermind.... I just realized this was a sarcastic post on the ProJo Chat. Aw crap
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Post by brianthetaoist on Jun 4, 2014 12:53:23 GMT -5
For what it's worth, here's Cecchini's 2014 Pawtucket spray chart, courtesy MLBfarm: He does seem to flash a good bit of opposite-field power, and a few of those fly balls might go off the wall in Fenway as opposed to being caught. But it's not like he's been driving balls for home runs to the opposite field, and I don't think he'll ever have the Votto-esque strength to drive balls out the other way. Most guys who can do that are big strong 1B types (also think Ryan Howard or Adrian Gonzalez), and while Cecchini is no shrimp, he doesn't really fit that profile. Even if he adds a handful of doubles, his bat might still not be enough to carry him if he has to move off 3B. He'll also play half his games on the road, where wallball doubles are likely to become long fly outs. But my real takeaway is that it's staggering how little pull power he's flashed-- there's that one home run, and literally nothing else. He'll have trouble at the MLB level without the ability to pull the ball, as guys will just pitch him in with fastballs, knowing that he can't really hurt them. He was a little better at pulling the ball in 2013, so maybe this is just a small sample size thing this year, but it's definitely something that is worrisome. That's a really weird spray chart ... looks like a right-handed middle infielder to me, a guy with little bit of pop on the pull side but can't really drive it the other way. I have an alternate theory to just pure lack of pull power: he's adjusting to the better breaking balls and overall pitching in AAA and waiting longer on pitches (or, if you're less charitable, unable to get around on the higher quality pitching yet). A completely made-up theory, I admit, but it fits the data ...
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 4, 2014 12:56:26 GMT -5
Are pitchers pounding him inside yet?
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,298
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Post by radiohix on Jun 4, 2014 16:17:24 GMT -5
It's been always my impression of Garin Cecchini as a hitter: A guy who sprays line drives to all fields with a knack for loud contact to the opposite field, maybe because the first video I saw of him was this one I want to remain patient with him because, he's a hard worker,has a great approach and a beautiful swing. ADD: In the same game he hit a double going the opposite way again
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Post by godot on Jun 4, 2014 16:30:49 GMT -5
It's been always my impression of Garin Cecchini as a hitter: A guy who sprays line drives to all fields with a knack for loud contact to the opposite field, maybe because the first video I saw of him was this one I want to remain patient with him because, he's a hard worker,has a great approach and a beautiful swing. ADD: In the same game he hit a double going the opposite way again Is his swing quick and compact, and how well does he drive the ball? His profile suggest yes, but does not seem to produce at AAA, with a higher k to bb ratio. Just adjustment process, or perhaps his profile is off base. Others do not say he has much of a lift to his swing. Only seen him few times on the tube, so I have no idea. There are a number of baseball people that aren't that thrilled with him, negative but certainly not glowing. Seems a mystery guy to me. I did like the review that said he would do better in the majors, but that was just a hunch.
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jun 5, 2014 6:03:36 GMT -5
I have no doubt about his hitting tools but .328 slg% is just terrible especially for LF/1B type player. He isn't def wizard like JBJ or Vazquez. Then where is his value? He really needs to learn how to hit for power. He isn't not on my top 10 any more.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jun 5, 2014 7:32:20 GMT -5
I think Garin will be a MLB player when he's 26-27 and on about his 2nd-3rd team. He really needs to get much stronger to help the Boston Red Sox. If he were a very good 3b, I'd be more optimistic. But, that needs a lot of work too. The good thing is that he's reported to be a hard-working kid, conscientious and has a good batting approach. Just gonna take too long to help us.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 5, 2014 8:04:23 GMT -5
It's been always my impression of Garin Cecchini as a hitter: A guy who sprays line drives to all fields with a knack for loud contact to the opposite field, maybe because the first video I saw of him was this one I want to remain patient with him because, he's a hard worker,has a great approach and a beautiful swing. ADD: In the same game he hit a double going the opposite way again Is his swing quick and compact, and how well does he drive the ball? His profile suggest yes, but does not seem to produce at AAA, with a higher k to bb ratio. Just adjustment process, or perhaps his profile is off base. Others do not say he has much of a lift to his swing. Only seen him few times on the tube, so I have no idea. There are a number of baseball people that aren't that thrilled with him, negative but certainly not glowing. Seems a mystery guy to me. I did like the review that said he would do better in the majors, but that was just a hunch. His swing is identical to Rich Gedman's after Walt Hreniak ruined him. There is no loft on his swing, which is why he doesn't hit for any power. Getting stronger probably isn't going to help much.
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Post by elguapo on Jun 5, 2014 8:23:58 GMT -5
Cecchini made a big leap forward after maturing physically, but that was in A ball and he's going to need further significant development to succeed at AAA, not to mention the Majors. But he was in Salem a year ago, and he's only had two months at Pawtucket.
But overall I agree with wskeleton76, without the power he'd have to go full Dave Magadan to succeed in the Majors, and while he has a good approach he doesn't look like he's about to dominate the strike zone.
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Post by jmei on Jun 5, 2014 8:48:17 GMT -5
Yeah, he's either going to have to add some power or cut down the strikeout rate. It's basically impossible to be a productive major league hitter while striking out 18%+ of the time with a sub-.120 ISO, which is roughly the range that current projects have him in.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 5, 2014 8:51:19 GMT -5
Yeah, he's either going to have to add some power or cut down the strikeout rate. It's basically impossible to be a productive major league hitter while striking out 18%+ of the time with a sub-.120 ISO, which is roughly the range that current projects have him in. I know I've been down on him for a few months now, but I do believe it's possible that he adjusts and improves. I just think the people who think he's anywhere near ready aren't seeing it right. It would be worse than bringing up WMB too early at this point. It would probably do him well to stay in AAA for the rest of this year and most of next.
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Post by ethanbein on Jun 5, 2014 10:34:54 GMT -5
Yeah, he's either going to have to add some power or cut down the strikeout rate. It's basically impossible to be a productive major league hitter while striking out 18%+ of the time with a sub-.120 ISO, which is roughly the range that current projects have him in. ZiPS has him at a 20.1% strikeout rate and a .109 ISO, and 1.0 WAR in 289 PA, essentially a league average player. He could certainly be worse than that (his 9.8% walk rate in AAA is a little concerning) but I don't think his skill set is completely unworkable in the majors.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 5, 2014 10:38:37 GMT -5
Yeah, he's either going to have to add some power or cut down the strikeout rate. It's basically impossible to be a productive major league hitter while striking out 18%+ of the time with a sub-.120 ISO, which is roughly the range that current projects have him in. ZiPS has him at a 20.1% strikeout rate and a .109 ISO, and 1.0 WAR in 289 PA, essentially a league average player. He could certainly be worse than that (his 9.8% walk rate in AAA is a little concerning) but I don't think his skill set is completely unworkable in the majors. Start playing with fangraphs filters and try to find some comps. It's not easy. There are almost no hitters with that profile that are league average. The ones that sound good are probably way faster than he is or have just a completely unique profile like Joe Mauer who hits about 3 popouts a season (he has hit none this year or in 2011). And that's not even a comp because Mauer strikes out way less. The other part is that just being a league average hitter isn't going to cut it for Cecchini with his defensive profile at a corner position.
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