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Post by widewordofsport on Jun 11, 2018 14:43:05 GMT -5
I dunno... a HS kid who threw 42IP total in his career or whatever it was.
I distinctly remember wanting Kris Bryant (not a chance) or Kohl Stewart (no chance it seemed). If not, then a GA OF (meadows or frazier) was the hope. I hated the pick based on internet scouting, but Im not gonna list the 12 over the years I loved (Jamie Callahan) and hates (Pat Goetze) that could make me look smart or dumb. It wasnt a reach, but I never thought it was a good pick.
What I really dislike is if you have a two-way player who can't pitch, give him a bat. We give position players the mound all the time.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2018 14:51:49 GMT -5
Sometimes, I really wonder if we should make rehashing the 2013 draft a bannable offense...
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 11, 2018 14:56:33 GMT -5
Sometimes, I really wonder if we should make rehashing the 2013 draft a bannable offense... I seriously almost just asked for that jokingly.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 11, 2018 15:00:15 GMT -5
The draft that shall not be named.
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Post by bjb406 on Jun 11, 2018 20:03:07 GMT -5
Top tier had 7 players, Meadows was still available at 7 when we picked. Which makes the pick even more awful. Meadows was thought to be tweener with no carrying tool and I remember him being firmly outside the top teir. My recollection had him as the next best pick, and the person I wanted, but still a huge letdown considering most people wanted Frazier to fall. That is not true at all. Most mocks in the spring had him in the top few picks ahead of Frazier. Him or Frazier was a major storyline, regarding which would be picked first. Frazier was heavily mocked to the Sox until it came out a couple teams in front of us wanted him. Then it was a matter of if the Marlins would pick Meadows or Moran, and most people were hoping we would get Meadows because at the time Bogaerts was just coming up and we had other great 3rd basemen in the system and needed an outfielder more. Then when we didn't pick Meadows the overwhelming majority were upset about it, and just trying to convince ourselves it wasn't awful. The report on Ball at the time was that he was tall so surely his fastball will get better, and that was basically it.
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Post by swingingbunt on Jun 11, 2018 23:38:52 GMT -5
Meadows was thought to be tweener with no carrying tool and I remember him being firmly outside the top teir. My recollection had him as the next best pick, and the person I wanted, but still a huge letdown considering most people wanted Frazier to fall. That is not true at all. Most mocks in the spring had him in the top few picks ahead of Frazier. Him or Frazier was a major storyline, regarding which would be picked first. Frazier was heavily mocked to the Sox until it came out a couple teams in front of us wanted him. Then it was a matter of if the Marlins would pick Meadows or Moran, and most people were hoping we would get Meadows because at the time Bogaerts was just coming up and we had other great 3rd basemen in the system and needed an outfielder more. Then when we didn't pick Meadows the overwhelming majority were upset about it, and just trying to convince ourselves it wasn't awful. The report on Ball at the time was that he was tall so surely his fastball will get better, and that was basically it. I just don't remember it like you do, I guess. The Soxprospects 2013 Mock draft, Jim Callis' 4.0 Mock, and Sickels final Mock all had had Ball going ahead of Meadows, and doing a quick read through of the day 1 draft thread from that year there were quite a few "worst case scenario" posts after the 6th pick. I agree that most people were upset at the pick right away though - but that was mostly due to the fact that basically no one thought Ball would be the pick.
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Post by swingingbunt on Jun 11, 2018 23:46:40 GMT -5
Sometimes, I really wonder if we should make rehashing the 2013 draft a bannable offense... Should we talk about Michael Kopech's dead arm or how bad the Kimbrel trade was instead?
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Post by juanpena on Jun 11, 2018 23:53:29 GMT -5
Teams miss on players all the time. I recall Meadows being behind Frazier but very highly regarded, but I'm sure the Sox saw something on Ball. They missed. It happens.
But the Sox DID screw up the 2013 draft, not so much by drafting Ball, but by leaving more than $900,000 on the table. Obviously they tried to sign Sheffield or Boldt but unless one of those guys really misled them on signability, the Sox should have had a contingency plan. If you're not sure of Plan or OR Plan B, have a Plan C.
In hindsight, it would have been Matt Thaiss, but it also could have meant draft another "tough sign" near the end as a fallback, as they did this year with Zach Watson, if Nick Northcut decided he really wanted to go to school.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 12, 2018 8:00:35 GMT -5
Prospect rankings differentiate from BA/MLB/PG a lot when you look at rankings. Heck once you get past the 2nd round some have guys in the third who aren't even top 500 on other lists. To say "well this guy was projected to go here and that guy was projected to go there" just proves my earlier point that people are looking at some other dudes rankings. You can count on your hands the difference in ranking between Meadows and Ball.
Also, where was Trey Ball on Cincinnati rankings?, where was Meadows on the Indians board? how about NY's board? Everyone is talking about 3 sets of rankings from guys who aren't good enough to work in the scouting department of 30 baseball teams who all have their own rankings. You literally are basing your opinions on very limited information. The only thing that could validate your point would be if you were a professional scout and personally scouted the top 15 guys in the draft, specifically Meadows and Ball.
Maybe the Sox should just fire their entire scouting department draft based off of BA and save some money??? In the end, people are just upset because they expected something great from a #7 pick. Be glad we won't have that opportunity again for a while. The Orioles had to bust on Matt Hobgood to hit on Manny Machado, Thats what happens when you draft even in the top of the first round; 1/2 those guys bust too. If you want a future elite player with a top ten pick you either have to get lucky, or suck year after year to get multiple picks in the top ten.
The Sox went with upside and it failed, boo hoo, don't complain when it falls flat while reaping the rewards of the Mookie Betts of the world.
Guess what? we just did the same thing in this draft, we went with a high risk/ high reward pick. It is more probable than not that Tristan Casas never becomes more than a below replacement player if he even reaches the majors. But his upside is a middle of the order bat.
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Trey Ball
Jun 12, 2018 8:41:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by bluechip on Jun 12, 2018 8:41:51 GMT -5
That is not true at all. Most mocks in the spring had him in the top few picks ahead of Frazier. Him or Frazier was a major storyline, regarding which would be picked first. Frazier was heavily mocked to the Sox until it came out a couple teams in front of us wanted him. Then it was a matter of if the Marlins would pick Meadows or Moran, and most people were hoping we would get Meadows because at the time Bogaerts was just coming up and we had other great 3rd basemen in the system and needed an outfielder more. Then when we didn't pick Meadows the overwhelming majority were upset about it, and just trying to convince ourselves it wasn't awful. The report on Ball at the time was that he was tall so surely his fastball will get better, and that was basically it. I just don't remember it like you do, I guess. The Soxprospects 2013 Mock draft, Jim Callis' 4.0 Mock, and Sickels final Mock all had had Ball going ahead of Meadows, and doing a quick read through of the day 1 draft thread from that year there were quite a few "worst case scenario" posts after the 6th pick. I agree that most people were upset at the pick right away though - but that was mostly due to the fact that basically no one thought Ball would be the pick. Ahem... I believe I called the Ball pick immediately before it was announced. But I referred to it as “something crazy like picking Trey Ball”
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 12, 2018 9:51:51 GMT -5
Prospect rankings differentiate from BA/MLB/PG a lot when you look at rankings. Heck once you get past the 2nd round some have guys in the third who aren't even top 500 on other lists. To say "well this guy was projected to go here and that guy was projected to go there" just proves my earlier point that people are looking at some other dudes rankings. You can count on your hands the difference in ranking between Meadows and Ball. Also, where was Trey Ball on Cincinnati rankings?, where was Meadows on the Indians board? how about NY's board? Everyone is talking about 3 sets of rankings from guys who aren't good enough to work in the scouting department of 30 baseball teams who all have their own rankings. You literally are basing your opinions on very limited information. The only thing that could validate your point would be if you were a professional scout and personally scouted the top 15 guys in the draft, specifically Meadows and Ball. I don’t really have an opinion on the Ball pick personally but this is silly. 30 out of 30 teams basically suck at identifying the best amateur talent. They do have more data and their lists are probably somewhat better than what is available to the public, but I doubt it’s by any great margin. Everyone passed on Trout, everyone passed on Mookie a bunch of times. Everyone is terrible at this game.
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Post by Smittyw on Jun 12, 2018 10:01:17 GMT -5
Lol, it's amazing that people are still rehashing this pick as if there's anything new or enlightening to say about it.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 12, 2018 10:06:51 GMT -5
Prospect rankings differentiate from BA/MLB/PG a lot when you look at rankings. Heck once you get past the 2nd round some have guys in the third who aren't even top 500 on other lists. To say "well this guy was projected to go here and that guy was projected to go there" just proves my earlier point that people are looking at some other dudes rankings. You can count on your hands the difference in ranking between Meadows and Ball. Also, where was Trey Ball on Cincinnati rankings?, where was Meadows on the Indians board? how about NY's board? Everyone is talking about 3 sets of rankings from guys who aren't good enough to work in the scouting department of 30 baseball teams who all have their own rankings. You literally are basing your opinions on very limited information. The only thing that could validate your point would be if you were a professional scout and personally scouted the top 15 guys in the draft, specifically Meadows and Ball. I don’t really have an opinion on the Ball pick personally but this is silly. 30 out of 30 teams basically suck at identifying the best amateur talent. They do have more data and their lists are probably somewhat better than what is available to the public, but I doubt it’s by any great margin. Everyone passed on Trout, everyone passed on Mookie a bunch of times. Everyone is terrible at this game. That is effectively my point, everyone evaluates talent differently and everyone is right and wrong at times but come June of every year everyone becomes an expert because they saw a numerical value next to a players name with nice things written about them.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,986
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Post by jimoh on Jun 12, 2018 10:08:18 GMT -5
I have an opinion on Trey Ball. I have said it before. You have an opinion on Trey Ball. You have said it before. That is all.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 12, 2018 10:08:46 GMT -5
The problem is that no one can see the future. You can make the right pick at the time it's made, but that is different than making the right pick with the benefit of hindsight, which everyone is f'ing amazing at. Crying about not being able to see the future when complaining about the past is for spoiled brats.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 12, 2018 10:19:23 GMT -5
Lol, it's amazing that people are still rehashing this pick as if there's anything new or enlightening to say about it. It’s the combination of the high pick and that Ball has never looked good. I feel like if there was even a brief period where he looked like a top 100 guy, there wouldn’t be half as much angst over the pick even if the end result was the same. Or if he was taken with the back half of the first round, which he would have been in a lot of drafts. Ball is ultimately no different from any number of other first round busts the Red Sox have taken in the past decade, but the single digit pick and his total lack of pro success makes him seem like more of a unique failure, when really he’s an entirely generic failure.
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Trey Ball
Jun 12, 2018 10:44:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by telson13 on Jun 12, 2018 10:44:42 GMT -5
Teams miss on players all the time. I recall Meadows being behind Frazier but very highly regarded, but I'm sure the Sox saw something on Ball. They missed. It happens. But the Sox DID screw up the 2013 draft, not so much by drafting Ball, but by leaving more than $900,000 on the table. Obviously they tried to sign Sheffield or Boldt but unless one of those guys really misled them on signability, the Sox should have had a contingency plan. If you're not sure of Plan or OR Plan B, have a Plan C. In hindsight, it would have been Matt Thaiss, but it also could have meant draft another "tough sign" near the end as a fallback, as they did this year with Zach Watson, if Nick Northcut decided he really wanted to go to school. Yeah, the overage waste was the real problem with that draft. The rest is just...meh, happens.
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Trey Ball
Jun 12, 2018 12:21:06 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 12, 2018 12:21:06 GMT -5
Lol, it's amazing that people are still rehashing this pick as if there's anything new or enlightening to say about it. It’s the combination of the high pick and that Ball has never looked good. I feel like if there was even a brief period where he looked like a top 100 guy, there wouldn’t be half as much angst over the pick even if the end result was the same. Or if he was taken with the back half of the first round, which he would have been in a lot of drafts. Ball is ultimately no different from any number of other first round busts the Red Sox have taken in the past decade, but the single digit pick and his total lack of pro success makes him seem like more of a unique failure, when really he’s an entirely generic failure. Yes. This. The worst pick in Sox history, but good luck to Trey in his second career. I won't rehash this subject anymore.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 12, 2018 12:30:17 GMT -5
Thankfully, I just realized I can unsubscribe to this thread in my notifications.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jun 12, 2018 16:43:10 GMT -5
It’s the combination of the high pick and that Ball has never looked good. I feel like if there was even a brief period where he looked like a top 100 guy, there wouldn’t be half as much angst over the pick even if the end result was the same. Or if he was taken with the back half of the first round, which he would have been in a lot of drafts. Ball is ultimately no different from any number of other first round busts the Red Sox have taken in the past decade, but the single digit pick and his total lack of pro success makes him seem like more of a unique failure, when really he’s an entirely generic failure. Yes. This. The worst pick in Sox history, but good luck to Trey in his second career. I won't rehash this subject anymore. 🤔Worst pick in Red Sox history? Two picks later they went over slot on a catcher who didn't get a hundred pro ABs. If you want to rake the Sox over the coals for a bad draft pick...
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Post by jmei on Jun 12, 2018 23:01:33 GMT -5
It’s the combination of the high pick and that Ball has never looked good. I feel like if there was even a brief period where he looked like a top 100 guy, there wouldn’t be half as much angst over the pick even if the end result was the same. Or if he was taken with the back half of the first round, which he would have been in a lot of drafts. Ball is ultimately no different from any number of other first round busts the Red Sox have taken in the past decade, but the single digit pick and his total lack of pro success makes him seem like more of a unique failure, when really he’s an entirely generic failure. Yes. This. The worst pick in Sox history, but good luck to Trey in his second career. I won't rehash this subject anymore. Protip: you don’t have to post something like this before you stop posting about a topic. You can just stop posting about that topic.
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dd
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Post by dd on Jun 13, 2018 9:07:35 GMT -5
I know that this is politically incorrect but I'm kind of enjoying the fact that this is the thread that will never end. I expect to become an octogenarian laughing at the conversation about how to end a topic. :-)
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redsox04071318champs
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Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 13, 2018 9:30:36 GMT -5
I try to look at it this way.
In a relatively poor draft the Sox made a relatively poor pick. Ball was a total project. It was a disappointment because when the Red Sox do stink, you hope there's a silver lining somewhere.
When the Sox stunk in 1992 and finished last for the first time since 1932, the silver lining was picking high in the draft (was it 7th?) and picking #7 Trot Nixon (as 7 was also his uniform number), and Nixon blossomed and was a contributor to the run of competitive post-season teams and eventual World Champion 2004 Red Sox, and of course on the clinching night it was Nixon who was the offensive star of the game. So that was a serious reward for the dark and dreary Butch Hobson era.
When the Sox stunk in 2014 and returned to last place in a disappointing season in which they were just as bad as the last place season of 2012, the silver lining was that 7th pick and it turned out to be Andrew Benintendi. Don't think we need to second guess that pick.
A lot of time we first guess (forget second guessing or 100th guessing as we're doing in the Ball case) and I think a lot of us were thrilled that the Sox drafted Benintendi as there was a lot of growing intrigue surrounding him at the time of the draft, and the reward for returning to last place ultimately was a player that has helped return the Sox to the top of the division. He's blossoming into what we've hoped he could be and he is a core member of what we hope can be the next World Championship team.
So 1992 and 2014 felt kind of worth it in the end. They got something out of it useful going forward.
But in 2012 the Sox had just completed the short-lived Bobby V era (which felt like forever) which came on the heels of an awful collapse in Sept 2011 which cost the Red Sox the best manager they ever had and helped make the best GM we ever had decide that he'd had enough. So if the silver lining is getting that #7 pick and converting it into something that will help make for a bright future, then it was a big disappointment and I do remember there was a lot of people saying things like "Don't draft Colin Moran", "Please may Clint Frazier fall to us", and "If he doesn't, then take Austin Meadows", so when it was Trey Ball, it was felt like a risky pick, a kid who had barely pitched and everything seemed like pure projection, but whatever. It's done. Can't undo it, and the alternatives as it turned out weren't that great, although somehow the Yankees found the one guy who can strike out 200 plus times and still hit for a good batting average (to go along with the rest of his 3 true outcomes).
So I'll have to content myself with the true silver lining of choking in 2011 and sucking in 2012 - the 2013 Red Sox won the World Series. That will just have to do. That will have to make up for that Trey Ball selection. I think I can live with that.
That's all I got.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 13, 2018 12:41:53 GMT -5
I try to look at it this way. In a relatively poor draft the Sox made a relatively poor pick. Ball was a total project. It was a disappointment because when the Red Sox do stink, you hope there's a silver lining somewhere. Only replying because I think this is a new idea, but I don't think it's right to say that Ball was a "project" any more than a typical HS player would be. Maybe there was a shade more projection involved in his case due to his playing in a (relatively) cold-weather climate that had a brutal spring weather-wise, but it's not like he was some kid who had picked up a baseball two years prior. In other words, I don't think it's fair to say he was any more of a project than, say, Stewart or Meadows would've been. High school players, particularly pitchers, are risky. Those of us scouting from published rankings would've been thrilled to get Kohl Stewart, and he's plateaued at AA the same way Ball has.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 13, 2018 13:13:53 GMT -5
There was no Benintendi waiting for the Red Sox to draft at 7. This is freaking nuts. If everything went right all the time, it wouldn't be baseball, which is the most unpredictable sport there is.
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