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All-Star Game Representation
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 6, 2015 18:43:08 GMT -5
Its Holt.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jul 6, 2015 18:43:02 GMT -5
Absolute joke that Bogaerts doesn't make the ASG.
For shame.
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Post by 07redsox on Jul 6, 2015 18:45:13 GMT -5
Bogaerts on the final vote.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jul 6, 2015 18:45:30 GMT -5
Mookie Betts not even being in the final five....lol
Good lord the idiots are running things.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 6, 2015 18:47:13 GMT -5
Absolute joke that Bogaerts doesn't make the ASG. For shame. He didn't heat up until June-ish and he was really far behind in the voting at that point. That and the whole broken vote system doomed him. I think he has a good shot with the final vote but Gardner will get a lot of Yankee votes.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jul 6, 2015 18:47:49 GMT -5
Absolute joke that Bogaerts doesn't make the ASG. For shame. He didn't heat up until June-ish and he was really far behind in the voting at that point. That and the whole broken vote system doomed him. I think he has a good shot with the final vote but Gardner will get a lot of Yankee votes. The voting only selects the starters. The voting had nothing to do with it. The idiot coaches did.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 6, 2015 18:49:52 GMT -5
Lol baseball
Congrats to Holt though!
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 6, 2015 18:51:07 GMT -5
He didn't heat up until June-ish and he was really far behind in the voting at that point. That and the whole broken vote system doomed him. I think he has a good shot with the final vote but Gardner will get a lot of Yankee votes. The voting only selects the starters. The voting had nothing to do with it. The idiot coaches did. I know, I was alluding to the fact the fans voted in Alcides Escobar.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jul 6, 2015 18:53:35 GMT -5
The voting only selects the starters. The voting had nothing to do with it. The idiot coaches did. I know, I was alluding to the fact the fans voted in Alcides Escobar. That's fine, I'm not worried about the fan voting. There was another spot for a SS, and there is no doubt that spot should have went to Bogaerts. Absolute joke.
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 6, 2015 19:00:53 GMT -5
“@timbritton: Yost on Holt: ”What impressed me is his versatility. Super-utility guys should be celebrated.“”
Luv you Yost
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 6, 2015 19:13:40 GMT -5
Have to be happy for Holt. Plays hard all the time. Does whatever the team needs him to do. He could definitely play for Belichick.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jul 6, 2015 19:16:03 GMT -5
Position by position WAR (AL ranks)
C: Perez - fWAR (4th), bWAR (t-3rd) Martin - fWAR (1st), bWAR (2nd) Vogt - fWAR (2nd), bWAR (1st)
1B: Cabrera - fWAR (1st), bWAR (1st) Pujols - fWAR (2nd), bWAR (2nd) Teixeira - fWAR (3rd), bWAR (3rd)
2B: Altuve - fWAR (5th), bWAR (4th) Kipnis - fWAR (1st), bWAR (1st)
3B: Donaldson - fWAR (1st), bWAR (2nd) Machado - fWAR (2nd), bWAR (1st)
SS: Escobar - fWAR (5th), bWAR (7th) Iglesias - fWAR (2nd), bWAR (4th)
2B/3B: Holt - fWAR (4th at 2B, 4th at 3B), bWAR (2nd at 2B, 3rd at 3B)
Only at one position did they not pick the league leader in WAR. Absolutely pathetic.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 6, 2015 19:37:00 GMT -5
Vote Bogaerts!
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jul 6, 2015 19:45:59 GMT -5
He didn't heat up until June-ish and he was really far behind in the voting at that point. That and the whole broken vote system doomed him. I think he has a good shot with the final vote but Gardner will get a lot of Yankee votes. The voting only selects the starters. The voting had nothing to do with it. The idiot coaches did. AL players and coaches vote for another 9 position players, 5 starting pitchers and 3 relievers. that leaves very few for the manager of Royals to select in consultation with MLB.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jul 6, 2015 21:36:59 GMT -5
@survivinggrady: How to vote for Xander for #ASG2015: 1) text A1 to 89269 2) online t.co/41KuhZpVqA3) use #XforASG on Friday 7/10 from 10am to 4pm ET
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Post by bluechip on Jul 6, 2015 22:08:50 GMT -5
Xander or Buchholz probably should get the nod. SS is weak, but the stupid royals fans shouldn't have voted Escobar into that spot. At least they only got four starters instead of 8... Escobar is a pretty defensible choice, though probably not the MOST deserving. Xander deserves it, but you could also argue that he played poorly for most of the last calendar year until June (and the voting started months ago). Not sure he's going to make it unless he gets fan-voted in. Would like to see him on that final ballot. I think it's AWESOME that a team like the Royals is getting all this attention. The two that would have been a disaster were at DH and 2B, and those were both thankfully left out. Should end up with a pretty all-star-ish roster with the regular snubs and borderline calls there as well. ADD: I think Buchholz or Koji is the right choice to represent us. Escobar is pretty far from defensible when Xander's bWAR is more than twice Escobar's. As lousy as Xander was for a portion of last season, what does that have to do with this season? Plus it's not like Escobar is a household name that anyone (even Royals fans) really wants to see play. I'll grant them that Perez and Gordon can at be defended as choices and that Cain is derserving of starting, but Escobar is not. i am not saying the Red Sox deserve multiple starters, but Xander has been the best short stop this year in the AL.
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taftreign
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Post by taftreign on Jul 6, 2015 22:29:16 GMT -5
Yost's mistake was taking 7 relievers. It's nice to celebrate relievers but not at the expense of more valuable players such as Bucholz or Bogaerts or Betts or Dozier or Gardner.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 6, 2015 22:41:54 GMT -5
I guess Holt received consideration after all. Good for him. Hope Xander gets a chance to keep him company.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 7, 2015 0:03:43 GMT -5
We're going to have to live with the fact that the game isn't about the best players. If any broadcasters do say that, they should have their mics pulled. I can understand Yost having a strategy to win the game, and I think that's what this represents. Once there was a prize attached to it, it was bound to happen. As for the voting, MLB is going to have to figure this out. Even a corps of Neanderthals would understand that the system is largely useless for picking players at this point. None of that changes the more objective measures of worth. It won't make Bogaerts or Betts lesser players. What it does mean is that the AL is deprived of their skills.
It's been really interesting watching the games through the eyes of opposition broadcasters. There's more than a bit of awe for Betts, and respect for Bogaerts' and the adjustments he's made. Betts in particular draws raves, and even envy. It's too bad, but it won't be the last time it happens to deserving players until the system gets fixed, and a lot of the talking heads know this.
Let's see how long it takes.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 7, 2015 3:06:32 GMT -5
Escobar is a pretty defensible choice, though probably not the MOST deserving. Xander deserves it, but you could also argue that he played poorly for most of the last calendar year until June (and the voting started months ago). Not sure he's going to make it unless he gets fan-voted in. Would like to see him on that final ballot. Escobar is pretty far from defensible when Xander's bWAR is more than twice Escobar's. As lousy as Xander was for a portion of last season, what does that have to do with this season? Plus it's not like Escobar is a household name that anyone (even Royals fans) really wants to see play. I'll grant them that Perez and Gordon can at be defended as choices and that Cain is derserving of starting, but Escobar is not. i am not saying the Red Sox deserve multiple starters, but Xander has been the best short stop this year in the AL. When I said it was defensible, I wasn't thinking of using just one statistic and sticking to it religiously. bWAR is a great stat, but it's a slave to a defensive metric that really takes more than half a season (or even a full season) to even out. Xander is still one of the better SS offensively, but from the fan's standpoints, that's happened recently. Furthermore, I think it's totally reasonable to take into account anything that's happened since the last all-star game (not saying everyone will, just that it's a reasonable stance to take, given the game happens once a calendar year.) Sure, if there were guidelines that said "use bWAR from this year and make sure you are up to the minute on the stats, and ignore potential worries about the efficacy of small defensive sample sizes" then the voting (player and fan) would be way out of wack, but the guidlines are way more flexible than that, and the voting started months ago. All that said, Alcides is one of the top 5 SS offensively this year, and I think he's above average defensively. That adds up to an above average SS even amongst those qualified, probably top 4, which is perfectly reasonable, even if far from ideal. Do I think Xander is a better player who has also had a better season? Yes. Did I think that five weeks ago? Probably? It's really pretty recently that X has made that leap, and while it puts him in pretty elite company, I think it's hard to get too upset with fans and players for looking at a longer track record. Holt was a fantastic selection, from so many angles. He makes the team better, as he can fill in wherever needed. He's been a very good hitter this year, the only Sox guy not named Laser Show who is both hitting and walking. bWAR for whatever it's worth has him 10th, despite not qualifying for the batting title. It's clear he's been good defensively to back that up. I hope Xander wins the last man in vote too. Glad our pitchers will get a rest.
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Post by jmei on Jul 7, 2015 6:19:42 GMT -5
Not going to happen, but would be cool if Holt played all 8 7 non-catcher defensive positions in the ASG.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jul 7, 2015 7:57:09 GMT -5
Congrats to Holt.
MLB has to get rid of " the game means something "so a guy like Holt can do just what jmei suggests.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 7, 2015 9:50:31 GMT -5
Moving this to the proper thread (which I somehow missed) ...
Since I've got a spreadsheet that takes bWAR, substitute's BP's superior baserunning measure, adds pitch framing for catchers, and adds 20% or subtracts 10% of clutch hitting differential (based on WPA), I can't help but run down how smart or stupid the AS rosters are.
Ties have been broken by PT (least goes first).
AL C 1. 2.8 Russell Martin (Manager) 2. 2.6 Jason Castro 3. 2.1 Steven Vogt (Players) 4. 1.9 Brian McCann 5. 1.6 Mike Zunino 6. 1.6 Salvador Perez (Fans)
The players can perhaps be excused for ignoring the 16 run pitch-framing edge that Castro has on Vogt. But maybe not. Perez is a joke.
NL C 1. 5.1 Buster Posey (Fans) 2. 2.9 Yasmani Grandal (Manager) 3. 2.7 Francisco Cervelli 4. 2.2 Miguel Montero 5. 2.2 Derek Norris 6. 2.0 Wilson Ramos 7. 1.9 Yadier Molina (Players)
Players go by reputation and cost Cervelli a deserved shot.
AL 1B 1. 4.0 Miguel Cabrera (Fans, DL) 2. 2.9 Albert Pujols (Players) 3. 2.7 Mark Teixeira (Manager)
Nailed it.
NL 1B 1. 5.5 Paul Goldschmidt (Fans) 2. 3.6 Anthony Rizzo (Players) 3. 2.9 Adrian Gonzalez (Manager)
Ditto.
AL 2B 1. 5.0 Jason Kipnis (Players) 2. 3.1 Brock Holt (Manager) 3. 3.1 Brian Dozier 4. 2.9 Jose Altuve (Fans)
Huge fail by the fans, of course. Holt is a clear choice over Dozier, who has the same WAR with 100 more PA and a fraction of the versatility. If he'd been playing full-time, he'd be about 4.0, and that makes him a great choice, actually. Meanwhile, Altuve is unique, fun, and has been great in the clutch; he's not unworthy in the least.
NL 2B 1. 3.5 Dee Gordon (Fans) 2. 2.8 Joe Panik (Manager) 3. 2.3 Kolten Wong 4. 1.7 Danny Espinosa 5. 1.7 Neil Walker 6. 1.7 Jace Peterson 7. 1.5 DJ LeMahieu (Players)
Players still don't know from park effects, apparently.
AL SS 1. 2.7 Xander Bogaerts (last man finalist) 2. 1.5 Jose Iglesias (Players) 3. 1.5 Brad Miller 4. 1.5 Alcides Escobar (Fans) 5. 1.5 Erick Aybar
Self-explanatory? Of the four runner-ups, Iglesias has the least PT (he'd be 1.8 if he had Escobar's PA), and is the one who's young, exciting, and presumably getting better. And UZR has him much better than his +1 from DRS.
NL SS 1. 4.0 Brandon Crawford (Players) 2. 3.0 Nick Ahmed 3. 2.5 Jhonny Peralta (Fans) 4. 2.4 Andrelton Simmons 5. 2.0 Adeiny Hechavarria 6. 1.8 Troy Tulowitzki (last man finalist)
Cardinal fans aren't nearly as bad as Royal fans ... but what is wrong with Missouri, anyway? Ahmed's having a tremendous year with the glove, but it's always a good idea not to put that much weight on that small a sample, so Peralta is an OK choice for the roster.
AL 3B 1. 4.6 Josh Donaldson (Fans) 2. 4.1 Manny Machado (Players) 3. 2.9 Mike Moustakas (last man finalist)
All correct.
NL 3B 1. 4.0 Todd Frazier (Fans) 2. 3.8 Nolan Arenado (Players) 3. 3.3 Kris Bryant (Manager)
And again.
AL OF 1. 5.0 Mike Trout (Fans) 2. 4.5 Mookie Betts 3. 4.0 Lorenzo Cain (Fans) 4. 3.7 Kevin Kiermaier 5. 3.4 Brett Gardner (last man finalist) 6. 3.3 Kevin Pillar 7. 3.0 J.D. Martinez (Players) 7. 3.0 Jose Bautista (Players) 9. 2.7 George Springer 10. 2.7 Yoenis Cespedes (last man finalist) 11. 2.6 Adam Jones (Players) 12. 2.3 Josh Reddick 13. 2.1 Alex Gordon (KC Fans)
Kiermaier and Pillar are young players with crazy defensive numbers, and bypassing them is quite reasonable. Gordon has been an AS-caliber player more often than not recently, but isn't close to worthy this year. The players picking Jones over Betts is criminal. Is Betts the greatest AS snub in recent memory?
NL OF 1. 6.4 Bryce Harper (Fans) 2. 4.0 A.J. Pollock (Players) 3. 3.9 Giancarlo Stanton (Fans, DL) 4. 3.2 Joc Pederson (Players) 5. 3.0 Andrew McCutchen (Players) 5. 3.0 Justin Upton (Manager) 6. 2.4 Jason Heyward 7. 2.4 Starling Marte 8. 2.4 Curtis Granderson 9. 2.2 Ben Revere 10. 2.0 Ryan Braun 11. 1.7 Charlie Blackmon 12. 1.6 Randall Grichuck .... 21. 1.2 Matt Holliday (Fans, DL although it's unclear whether he's been replaced yet)
AL DH 1. 3.2 Nelson Cruz (Fans) 2. 2.1 Prince Fielder (Players)
There's no reason any longer why the player's choice for DH, when they agreed with the fans (which seems likely), should automatically be included on the team. However, Fielder would easily be the best hitter not on the team if omitted, his low WAR notwithstanding. He should get a chance to pinch-hit.
Least deserving All-Stars by rank 1. Matt Holliday (STL fans) 2. DJ LeMahieu (Players) 3. Yadier Molina (Players) 4. Salvador Perez (KC fans)
Least deserving All-Stars by WAR 1. Matt Holiday t2. Alcides Escobar (KC Fans) t2. DJ LeMahieu 4. Jose Iglesias (Players)
Biggest snubs by rank 1. Xander Bogaerts 1b. Mookie Betts 3. Jason Castro (Ahmed) 4. Brett Gardner (Kiermaier and Pillar)
Biggest snubs by WAR 1. Mookie Betts (Kiermaier) 2. Brett Gardner (Pillar) 3. Justin Turner 4. Brain Dozier (Ahmed) 5. Mike Moustakas 6. Francisco Cervelli 7. Adam Lind 8. Xander Bogaerts 10. George Springer 11. Yoenis Cespedes
Nine things most wrong with the rosters, by WAR gap.
2.4 Mookie Betts should have Alex Gordon's starting and roster spot 2.1 Jason Kipnis should be starting over Jose Altuve 1.8 Justin Upton already has Matt Holiday's roster spot, it seems; A.J. Pollock should be starting 1.7 Justin Turner should have DJ LeMahieu's spot 1.5 Brandon Crawford should be starting over Jhonny Peralta 1.2 Xander Bogaerts should have Alcides Escobar's starting and roster spot 1.0 Jason Castro should have Salvador Perez's spot, with Russel Martin starting 0.8 Brett Gardner should have Adam Jones' spot 0.8 Francisco Cervelli should have Yadier Molina's spot
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Post by okin15 on Jul 7, 2015 10:10:38 GMT -5
It's the all-STAR, not the all-WAR ballot. And it happens once per calendar year, with voting starting in April, which could certainly be read as including last year's second half. I just don't think it's so cut and dried that a good player the last couple months should be an automatic selection. Kluber was a bigger snub than Mookie.
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Post by ray88h66 on Jul 7, 2015 10:13:11 GMT -5
I just put in a bunch of votes for Xander. I hadn't voted for all stars since I was a kid. Those squiggly numbers you have to type in drive me crazy, and I don't think you should get to vote more than once, but fight within the rules given. Go Xander.
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