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Post by arzjake on Aug 2, 2015 10:43:16 GMT -5
Honestly the writing was on the wall for this as early as the end of the first third of a season last season. What concerns me more than anything now is panicking and not committing to that next wave which may start appearing as soon as 2017.
One huge point that is seldom mentioned is the impact of losing your starting catcher and back-up within week/s of the seasons start. It seams the media and most fans don't grasp the impact it had on the young pitching staff. ..Xactly!! What Young Pitching Staff? The starting 5 out of ST all in their late 20's to 30 yrs old with many years of Experience. Don't make excuses for sub par performance.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Aug 2, 2015 10:46:12 GMT -5
Losing a rookie catcher had nothing to do with the lousy performance of any starting pitcher. None. .... I would agree with others who have suggested that this claim is nonsense. And I will continue to do so even if you buttress your argument with CAPITAL LETTERS.
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 2, 2015 10:53:24 GMT -5
arzjake, I agree with you that the pitching has been bad. I disagree that losing CV didn't make a difference. He would have helped. Just not enough to keep this team from being bad.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Aug 2, 2015 19:00:24 GMT -5
Comments like that make me question your knowledge of the game either that or bad hyperbole. We lost both catchers right off the bat, so we had to bring in backup expendable catchers from other teams who never even had spring training to work with the pitchers we have. That means they never had a chance to assess their strengths, weaknesses, personalities to learn how to work with them, etc. all of that had to happen on the fly plus Vasquez is a fantastic defensive catcher especially noted for stealing strikes. No matter how bad you believe our staff is for you to make such a statement is absurd a shows a true lack of understanding the game. Im fine with you calling me out. If you call me out, please, get your facts straight. Thats all I ask. Know what your talking about before you Post. Hanigan was the starting C out of spring training he appeared in 34 games where the sox were 16 18 with a Starting Rotation ERA of 5.8, dead last in the AL. All 5 SP's worked with this C in spring training. ERod gets called up and quickly becomes a Staff Ace until his "tipping pitches issue" throwing to a Rookie C and a journeyman. None the less, 66IP 56 K's with a 4ERA. American League ERA average is 3.92. CBuc got his act together while throwing to a rookie and a Journeyman C before his injury. I would agree it would be nice to have Varitek catching 140 games. Moral of my post. iTS ABOUT PITCHING TALENT! Its about being mentally and physically prepared to pitch regardless of your C especially after working with that C for a few months. Now, go get a glass of milk and some cookies.. How could he appear in 34 games if he was put on the DL May 2? Hanigan appeared in 19 games (11-8 record) when he went on the DL, one month into the season and Vasquez who many accept as already one of the best defensive catchers in the game went on the DL days before the season started. The consensus before the season started was the Sox would be about league average with their starting pitching, some say slightly better and other slightly less never the less league average was the consensus. However how good or bad the talent of the starting pitching was never the question here, you claimed that injuries to our catchers had no effect at all on our pitching, then clearly you don't understand the game.
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Post by arzjake on Aug 2, 2015 19:39:21 GMT -5
Im fine with you calling me out. If you call me out, please, get your facts straight. Thats all I ask. Know what your talking about before you Post. Hanigan was the starting C out of spring training he appeared in 34 games where the sox were 16 18 with a Starting Rotation ERA of 5.8, dead last in the AL. All 5 SP's worked with this C in spring training. ERod gets called up and quickly becomes a Staff Ace until his "tipping pitches issue" throwing to a Rookie C and a journeyman. None the less, 66IP 56 K's with a 4ERA. American League ERA average is 3.92. CBuc got his act together while throwing to a rookie and a Journeyman C before his injury. I would agree it would be nice to have Varitek catching 140 games. Moral of my post. iTS ABOUT PITCHING TALENT! Its about being mentally and physically prepared to pitch regardless of your C especially after working with that C for a few months. Now, go get a glass of milk and some cookies.. How could he appear in 34 games if he was put on the DL May 2? Hanigan appeared in 19 games (11-8 record) when he went on the DL, one month into the season and Vasquez who many accept as already one of the best defensive catchers in the game went on the DL days before the season started. The consensus before the season started was the Sox would be about league average with their starting pitching, some say slightly better and other slightly less never the less league average was the consensus. However how good or bad the talent of the starting pitching was never the question here, you claimed that injuries to our catchers had no effect at all on our pitching, then clearly you don't understand the game. Your right it was 19 games and the Sox era was still over 5 runs per game with hannigan at 11 8. You can cat call all you want about knowing baseball. Your right, Im just a fan like you reading forums and watching games on TV. Bottom line is, Christian Vazquez, Johnny Bench or Varitek would not have this Team at .500 today August 3rd. Not a chance in hell. Starting Pitching is not good. Hasn't been good since April 1st. Bullpen is right there with it. No Ace and No power arms. What Catcher is going to cover those Roster mistakes? Yes, your right, a solid C over the course of the entire season would make a difference to an extent. Come on man, no catcher like I said would have this Team anywhere near .500 as constructed.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Aug 2, 2015 19:44:08 GMT -5
A little strong there jake. Remember that CV was the starting catcher and RH the back up. CV played zero ML games and RH had surgery just a few weeks in, putting the onus on Sandy Leon and lake Swihart for most of this mess.
Porcello, Miley, Masterson and Kelly all pitched well below expectations and historical potential. Had 3 of the 4 been even close to their own potential the Sox would be contending. I agree that pitchers ought to be able to pitch successfully to catchers who are experienced and good enough. But that has never been the case. Historically, backup catchers have played just a small percentage of games. What percentage of gemes did Berra or White play in tbeir prime. Even later, how about Fisk or Tek or Y Molina.? The result of having steady catchers was not much different from today's pitchers doing better with their binkies.
The fact is that an already shaky Sox rotation has pitched to two solid backups (RH and SL) and Swihart who they rushed from AA to back up the backups. And tbey did so at a time when tbe vaunted Sox offense ranked among the worst in baseball. Peefect storm. Jake, this is not black and white and certainly not worthy of a verbal duel to the death. The 2015 season was lost for so many reasons in addition to, for whatever reason, poor pitching that we now get to take part in a do-over to improve and enhance the talent we already have. Also, no cookies, milk or soup for you.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Aug 2, 2015 19:47:00 GMT -5
This is ridiculous if we had CV or a really good catcher familiar with the staff this team would easily have 4 or 5 more wins right now. Yeah, and then you'd know, we might only be tied for last place.
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Post by redsox4242 on Aug 2, 2015 21:55:44 GMT -5
This is ridiculous if we had CV or a really good catcher familiar with the staff this team would easily have 4 or 5 more wins right now. Yeah, and then you'd know, we might only be tied for last place. I don't agree, Christian is not familiar with anyone on the starting rotation. And he still only has one year of experience at the major league level. Yes, he is a great catcher. Not even Pudge Rodriguez could do anything with this pathetic rotation.
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Post by larrycook on Aug 2, 2015 23:44:23 GMT -5
Miley, porcello, masterson and especially kelly would have missed their spots or thrown meatballs regardless of who is catching.
There is no magic game calling that a catcher can make that can mask the stench of mediocre pitching.
I understand the sox pitching kelly in the hope he does well enough to build some type of trade value this offseason, but I don't see it happening. Kelly is just that bad.
We need to give Johnson a legitimate chance to show something and send Kelly to the pen.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Aug 3, 2015 10:18:54 GMT -5
This is ridiculous if we had CV or a really good catcher familiar with the staff this team would easily have 4 or 5 more wins right now. Yeah, and then you'd know, we might only be tied for last place. I don't agree, Christian is not familiar with anyone on the starting rotation. And he still only has one year of experience at the major league level. Yes, he is a great catcher. Not even Pudge Rodriguez could do anything with this pathetic rotation. You don't agree that we would probably still be in last place? or you don't agree that we would win 4 or 5 more games? Let me revise my statement. The team could of won 4 or 5 more games, we don't really know. My point was however that I think the difference would have been marginal when you talk about where this team is in the standings right now.
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