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Victorino traded to LAA for INF Josh Rutledge; Castillo up
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Jul 27, 2015 19:02:53 GMT -5
… On the conference call, Cherington said Rutledge will join the MLB club and they've been interested in him since he was in Colorado... could this portend a Holt trade?Dan O'Dowd said on MLB Tonight that Sox had inquired after Rutledge several times when he was in Colorado.
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Post by burythehammer on Jul 27, 2015 20:07:35 GMT -5
I wasn't expecting anything for Victorino but can someone tell me why I shouldn't think this guy is terrible?
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Post by scottysmalls on Jul 27, 2015 20:12:34 GMT -5
I wasn't expecting anything for Victorino but can someone tell me why I shouldn't think this guy is terrible? He is terrible. You should be happy because a replacement level player and 1.1 million is more than nothing.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 27, 2015 20:14:36 GMT -5
So, Rusney is going to get playing time priority over Bradley the rest of the year? Remind me, which one of them was signed for $72,000,000? How does that matter? You play the better player that has the brightest future that can help this team the most in the future. What are we going to just keep playing Rusney for 6 years because we gave him 72 million? Bradley has been tearing up triple A all year, while Rusney has not been nearly as good, heck he looks like Allen Craig. Bradley deserves a shot before Rusney in my book!
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Post by jmei on Jul 27, 2015 20:30:14 GMT -5
It matters because less than a year ago, the Red Sox thought he was good enough to be worth giving $72m to. The fact that Bradley has performed better this year in Pawtucket, while fairly persuasive, is not conclusive.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
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Post by nomar on Jul 27, 2015 20:37:09 GMT -5
Rusney needs to fix his GB problem (check soxscout's Twitter) before he can contribute. JBJ is more ML ready, he's simply getting paid less.
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Post by telson13 on Jul 27, 2015 20:38:22 GMT -5
So, Rusney is going to get playing time priority over Bradley the rest of the year? Come on man, I can see the allure of JBJ, but he has over 500 PAs in the MLB, while Rusney has little over 100 and was, at the time of his signing, a much better prospect than JBJ ever was. He's had a bad and injured 2015, but they shouldn't just flush away the investment. Or maybe they are showing him up for a trade as well. JBJ was ranked right around 35 pre-2014, in AA. I think your perception of Castillo's upside is off. Most sites had him as a Rajai Davis with maybe a little more pop. "Much better" seems like a gross overstatement, and it could be argued that JBJ was the better prospect, with more upside, at his peak. Before 2014 guys like Jim Callis considered him a potential .300/.380/.450 or so player (I recall a podcast where he though JBJ would be a better hitter than Ellsbury, just without the speed, and far better defense).
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Post by soxcentral on Jul 27, 2015 20:53:10 GMT -5
I wasn't expecting anything for Victorino but can someone tell me why I shouldn't think this guy is terrible? He is terrible. You should be happy because a replacement level player and 1.1 million is more than nothing. Actually, if I'm reading the BA link correctly on the last page, we are paying $1.1 million, so we save $3.4 M. Not bad.
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Post by bentossaurus on Jul 27, 2015 21:01:09 GMT -5
Problem is, they're quoting Speier. This is his tweet:
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Post by jmei on Jul 27, 2015 21:13:02 GMT -5
Yeah, BA's major league stuff is not great. For instance, they're still calling Victorino a switch-hitter, which he hasn't been in a little bit.
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Post by soxcentral on Jul 27, 2015 21:17:03 GMT -5
Oh well, would have been nice to pass off a little more and get closer to the threshold.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 27, 2015 21:46:42 GMT -5
It matters because less than a year ago, the Red Sox thought he was good enough to be worth giving $72m to. The fact that Bradley has performed better this year in Pawtucket, while fairly persuasive, is not conclusive. It also matters because, right or wrong, that's just how the world works. Dude making $72m gets to play over the dude who doesn't.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Jul 28, 2015 1:04:27 GMT -5
Mets are nuts not to make a better offer. their bench players are a joke.
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Post by chud on Jul 28, 2015 4:20:53 GMT -5
One quick one on Vic: When Cherington got the job, one thing i remember him saying is that he was going to acquire players who baseball actually matters too (I always thought that was a subtle jab at players like JD Drew...)...Vic was definitely one of those players. Typical Boston media now questioning the contract and "if" they would have one the WS w/out him...What an absolute joke...Because the one thing i know was that they did win the WS w/ him and trying to surgically extract a player from a winning equation 2 years after the fact to try and make the player/team look bad for a contract is the epitome of armchair quarterbacking...Vic had an excellent year in 2013 and some clutch hits in the playoffs (if not an excellent entire playoff)...His D was "Evans-eque"...just a good overall player in every facet but one who couldn't stay healthy for the Sox...That said, needed to trade him to clear a way to give the last two months to Castillo who's doing no good in AAA...If that time wasn't now for Castillo it was never...next to go should be De Aza for JBJ (who fits the same thing, now or never for him)...actually, part of me wonders if they're keeping JBJ in AAA to trade him (i.e. because he's hitting and they don't want to risk him being exposed again in MLB after he's reestablished value again)...
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Post by joshv02 on Jul 28, 2015 7:22:10 GMT -5
One quick one on Vic: When Cherington got the job, one thing i remember him saying is that he was going to acquire players who baseball actually matters too (I always thought that was a subtle jab at players like JD Drew...)...Vic was definitely one of those players. Typical Boston media now questioning the contract and "if" they would have one the WS w/out him...What an absolute joke...Because the one thing i know was that they did win the WS w/ him and trying to surgically extract a player from a winning equation 2 years after the fact to try and make the player/team look bad for a contract is the epitome of armchair quarterbacking...Vic had an excellent year in 2013 and some clutch hits in the playoffs (if not an excellent entire playoff)...His D was "Evans-eque"...just a good overall player in every facet but one who couldn't stay healthy for the Sox...That said, needed to trade him to clear a way to give the last two months to Castillo who's doing no good in AAA...If that time wasn't now for Castillo it was never...next to go should be De Aza for JBJ (who fits the same thing, now or never for him)...actually, part of me wonders if they're keeping JBJ in AAA to trade him (i.e. because he's hitting and they don't want to risk him being exposed again in MLB after he's reestablished value again)... Seriously, how you can write this about Victorino and not think the exact same thing applies to Drew is beyond me. 1. Incredible defense. 2. Don't win in 2007 without him. 3. 2013 Vic playoffs v. 2007 Drew playoffs: 642 OPS vs. 783 OPS. Vic's game winning grand slam was obvious worth more (e.g., has a higher WPA), but Drew's grand slam helped force a game 7 against Cleveland (then in a zero-zero game), and Vic's 2013 playoffs was dominated by a ton of huge strikeouts and kept afloat by 7 lean-in HBPs. 3 out of 5 years, Drew played more games than Victorino's career high with the Sox - and the 5th year he was 35 and by that point broken down. I find Victorino to be a fun player for his personality off the field, but Drew was the significantly better player and added more to both the regular season and his own World Series victory. Whatever "baseball matters to him" means it must at least partially include playing the actual games and playing them well. Sorry to the rest of the board for falling into the obvious trap. But this idea of how to build a baseball team with dirty, gritty players is stupid in large part because we have only partial insight into who the dirty, gritty players are.
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Post by sibbysisti on Jul 28, 2015 7:46:01 GMT -5
Alex Speier @alexspeier 2m2 minutes ago Sources: Victorino has about $4.9M left in salary on 3-year, $39M deal; Red Sox will pay about $3.8M, with the Angels responsible for $1.1M. This report contradicts Baseball America's quote of Alex Speir wherein he states that the Sox are only picking up $1.1 million of Shane's remaining salary. I assume BA just misread Alex's tweet.
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Post by taftreign on Jul 28, 2015 7:52:14 GMT -5
chud:
I understand your thinking on JBJ but I think it's the wrong direction for this club. We currently have an OF of Ramirez, Betts, Castillo and reserves of De Aza and Nava with a bit of Holt thrown in. When you consider De Aza is a free agent and Nava's future is uncertain in combination with the possibility of moving Ramirez out of the OF altogether, it makes no sense to trade JBJ.
He is the ideal 4th OF with the possibility of starting dependent on the direction the team goes with Ramirez. He can play all three OF positions with above average to great defense and he offers adequate speed off the bench. Consider also he's making very little which is incredibly important to a team with luxury tax implications and a need to fix the rotation and bull pen.
Trading Victorino made complete sense. Trading De Aza makes complete sense unless you want to resign him in the off season. I'm not sure what to do with Nava at this point but he appears expendable. If you need to make a trade Manuel Margot has more trade value and likely returns more value. If you can get full value plus for JBJ and you want to look at signing a short term fourth OF or resign De Aza and wait for Margot it is an option but not my first if I can add a quality starter via trade.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 28, 2015 9:31:38 GMT -5
Shane Victorino put up 6.2 fWAR/7.5 bWAR for the Red Sox since 2013. At $6 million/WAR (conservative estimate for the market rate), his contract was worth it. He basically earned his entire contract during his first season, during which season the team happened to win the World Series.
Kind of hard to call that a bad signing, no?
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Post by ctfisher on Jul 28, 2015 10:47:02 GMT -5
Come on man, I can see the allure of JBJ, but he has over 500 PAs in the MLB, while Rusney has little over 100 and was, at the time of his signing, a much better prospect than JBJ ever was. He's had a bad and injured 2015, but they shouldn't just flush away the investment. Or maybe they are showing him up for a trade as well. JBJ was ranked right around 35 pre-2014, in AA. I think your perception of Castillo's upside is off. Most sites had him as a Rajai Davis with maybe a little more pop. "Much better" seems like a gross overstatement, and it could be argued that JBJ was the better prospect, with more upside, at his peak. Before 2014 guys like Jim Callis considered him a potential .300/.380/.450 or so player (I recall a podcast where he though JBJ would be a better hitter than Ellsbury, just without the speed, and far better defense). I don't think Bradley was ever projected to hit for that much power, most people thought he'd top out around 12-15 bombs in his peak seasons. I also think Castillo was expected to be quite a lot better than Rajai Davis with a little more pop. They weren't the only team in on him at a high price tag, and there's a reason Rajai Davis has never signed a contract close to the one Castillo got
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Post by Steve Henley on Jul 28, 2015 11:56:41 GMT -5
… On the conference call, Cherington said Rutledge will join the MLB club and they've been interested in him since he was in Colorado... could this portend a Holt trade?Dan O'Dowd said on MLB Tonight that Sox had inquired after Rutledge several times when he was in Colorado. Might be a guy Danny Watkins recommended. Rutledge was high school teammates with Caleb Clay.
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Post by chud on Jul 28, 2015 20:35:12 GMT -5
One quick one on Vic: When Cherington got the job, one thing i remember him saying is that he was going to acquire players who baseball actually matters too (I always thought that was a subtle jab at players like JD Drew...)...Vic was definitely one of those players. Typical Boston media now questioning the contract and "if" they would have one the WS w/out him...What an absolute joke...Because the one thing i know was that they did win the WS w/ him and trying to surgically extract a player from a winning equation 2 years after the fact to try and make the player/team look bad for a contract is the epitome of armchair quarterbacking...Vic had an excellent year in 2013 and some clutch hits in the playoffs (if not an excellent entire playoff)...His D was "Evans-eque"...just a good overall player in every facet but one who couldn't stay healthy for the Sox...That said, needed to trade him to clear a way to give the last two months to Castillo who's doing no good in AAA...If that time wasn't now for Castillo it was never...next to go should be De Aza for JBJ (who fits the same thing, now or never for him)...actually, part of me wonders if they're keeping JBJ in AAA to trade him (i.e. because he's hitting and they don't want to risk him being exposed again in MLB after he's reestablished value again)... Seriously, how you can write this about Victorino and not think the exact same thing applies to Drew is beyond me. 1. Incredible defense. 2. Don't win in 2007 without him. 3. 2013 Vic playoffs v. 2007 Drew playoffs: 642 OPS vs. 783 OPS. Vic's game winning grand slam was obvious worth more (e.g., has a higher WPA), but Drew's grand slam helped force a game 7 against Cleveland (then in a zero-zero game), and Vic's 2013 playoffs was dominated by a ton of huge strikeouts and kept afloat by 7 lean-in HBPs. 3 out of 5 years, Drew played more games than Victorino's career high with the Sox - and the 5th year he was 35 and by that point broken down. I find Victorino to be a fun player for his personality off the field, but Drew was the significantly better player and added more to both the regular season and his own World Series victory. Whatever "baseball matters to him" means it must at least partially include playing the actual games and playing them well. Sorry to the rest of the board for falling into the obvious trap. But this idea of how to build a baseball team with dirty, gritty players is stupid in large part because we have only partial insight into who the dirty, gritty players are. Sorry, my bad, I think this is a combination of me not being clear enough in my original post and maybe you reading a bit too much into it...I agree on Drew, I was a big fan of his and loved the signing at the time...what i meant was i thought Cherington's statement was a dig on Drew, not that i agreed w/ the statement...of course its just total speculation on my part...Not sure how that led to the whole "gritty player" argument...Vic and Drew were both good all around players who had trouble staying healthy, but when healthy were winning players on winning teams who could contribute in a multitude of ways...wish we had more players with those abilities which was more to my point of the media trying to pick apart the Vic signing, which i think is ridiculous...
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 28, 2015 22:40:11 GMT -5
Just wanted to wish good luck to the guy I called the worst free agent signing of 2013. I knew there would be no way he'd stay healthy enough to be worth that kind of contract, and he wasn't.
Yet, in 2013, he was a big contributor to the Red Sox and I admired his style of play. His defense brought back memories of Dwight Evans. I would rate his defense that season in RF as spectacular. He was a smart baserunner, and when he wasn't able to hit lefty, he did a good job mashing late season homers as a righty and taking his base when he'd get hit by a pitch, which happened a lot.
He hit well in the ALDS including the series clinching infield hit, but didn't get many hits thereafter. But the hits he got, man did he make them count. I'll never forget the grandslam to sew up the pennant, and of course the bases clearing double (took 3b on the throw I believe) to kill the Cards and then the bases loaded single to finish the Sox scoring.
In essence the Sox paid about $38 million for one year, and it was worth every penny.
Thanks Shane and good luck. Hope you get a standing ovation the next time you're at Fenway and when they host one of those anniversaries of the 2013 Sox, I look forward to hearing you get serenaded with 3 little birds. Class act, Shane Victorino.
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