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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,936
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 2, 2015 14:21:27 GMT -5
Congratulations to the 2015 World Series Champion Kansas City Royals. They came oh so close in 2014, and being a small market team who had been mostly awful for the previous 20 years, you never know how big their window is. They came out even more determined in 2015 and good for them. It was great to see George Brett (a great Yankee killer) celebrating. Have to admit. Always had a bit of a soft spot for them because I knew they way back when were bitter rivals of the Yankees, too, and had to endure their problems with NY before finally beating them in 1980. And I remember when they won in 1985 (with help from Don Denkinger the umpire.) The funny thing is that the Mets could have wrapped up the Series in 5 games. Familia blew Game 1. The Mets middle relief and defense killed them in Game 4 as Murphy's error was a killer. And in Game 5, Duda should have nailed Hosmer at the plate to end the ballgame. All of those opportunities were missed and the Royals took full advantage of those miscues and limited the mistakes on their side. If I'm he commissioner of baseball, I'm overruling the official scorer and making that an error. The replays showed that Hosmer wa literally not in the picture at the time the ball went past home; any competent, ordinary throw and tag gets him at the plate. There's no way that's an RBI and an earned run. Why does this matter? I'm guessing that no WS clinching game ever turned on a final-out error by the eventual losing team. I'm not motivated enough to research it, but had this been scored correctly, Elias would have told us. And Duda would have earned a proper place in history, rather than being a footnote. Certainly, Familia blowing two saves and Duda's error is karmic payback for Mets fans still gloating about '86. Losing that series in 5 games, when they could have easily won it in 5, was downright (pre-2004) Red Soxian.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 2, 2015 14:26:38 GMT -5
Congratulations to the 2015 World Series Champion Kansas City Royals. They came oh so close in 2014, and being a small market team who had been mostly awful for the previous 20 years, you never know how big their window is. They came out even more determined in 2015 and good for them. It was great to see George Brett (a great Yankee killer) celebrating. Have to admit. Always had a bit of a soft spot for them because I knew they way back when were bitter rivals of the Yankees, too, and had to endure their problems with NY before finally beating them in 1980. And I remember when they won in 1985 (with help from Don Denkinger the umpire.) The funny thing is that the Mets could have wrapped up the Series in 5 games. Familia blew Game 1. The Mets middle relief and defense killed them in Game 4 as Murphy's error was a killer. And in Game 5, Duda should have nailed Hosmer at the plate to end the ballgame. All of those opportunities were missed and the Royals took full advantage of those miscues and limited the mistakes on their side. If I'm he commissioner of baseball, I'm overruling the official scorer and making that an error. The replays showed that Hosmer wa literally not in the picture at the time the ball went past home; any competent, ordinary throw and tag gets him at the plate. There's no way that's an RBI and an earned run. Why does this matter? I'm guessing that no WS clinching game ever turned on a final-out error by the eventual losing team. I'm not motivated enough to research it, but had this been scored correctly, Elias would have told us. And Duda would have earned a proper place in history, rather than being a footnote. Certainly, Familia blowing two saves and Duda's error is karmic payback for Mets fans still gloating about '86. Losing that series in 5 games, when they could have easily won it in 5, was downright (pre-2004) Red Soxian. FYI, it's not an error b/c it would've been a double play. Now, if you want to argue against the wisdom of that rule, I'll be right behind you, but it wasn't a judgment call.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 2, 2015 15:45:32 GMT -5
Chris is right, the second out in what would be a double play isn't considered automatic. It isn't subject to assumptions about what should have happened. If, say, there would have been an advancing base runner because the off-line throw allowed it to happen, that's a different story. But that wasn't the case. That throw would, presumably, have nailed the runner if it was on target, but with the out already recorded that can't be considered.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 2, 2015 19:40:24 GMT -5
FYI, it's not an error b/c it would've been a double play. . I very well could be wrong, but doesn't that rule only apply when the attempt at the second out is a force play?
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Post by iakovos11 on Nov 2, 2015 20:05:56 GMT -5
FYI, it's not an error b/c it would've been a double play. . I very well could be wrong, but doesn't that rule only apply when the attempt at the second out is a force play? That would make sense to me.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,988
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Post by jimoh on Nov 2, 2015 20:08:47 GMT -5
If there's a single to shallow LF and the runner tries to score and the LF throws the ball into the stands, it's not an error because you can't assume any kind of play like that. (It's an error if other players advance--if the game is not over)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 3, 2015 9:41:31 GMT -5
I very well could be wrong, but doesn't that rule only apply when the attempt at the second out is a force play? That would make sense to me. Having been an official scorer before, my understanding was always the simple "you can't assume a double play." Someone with more time can look it up, but I don't see why that would apply only on certain double plays.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 3, 2015 13:40:30 GMT -5
Thanks to the Internet, took hardly any time at all. From MLB.com, the rule:
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Post by kman22 on Nov 3, 2015 14:07:16 GMT -5
Thanks to the Internet, took hardly any time at all. From MLB.com, the rule: Maybe the wording is confusing, but had that throw not been wild, the runner would have been out?
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Post by kingofthetrill on Nov 3, 2015 14:25:16 GMT -5
I have some official scoring experience as well. The way I learned it is that errors committed after an out are used to account for advanced bases. Since, as mentioned above, there was already an out recorded on the play (as opposed to a fielder's choice throw to home) I think an error would only be called if there was a runner on base that advanced, or if this play was at any other base other than home and the runner subsequently advanced.
In other words, there's a difference between being safe on an error and advancing on an error. There are also complications with giving out multiple errors on the same play, even if it's logically deserved, but that's another conversation for another time.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 3, 2015 15:21:25 GMT -5
Thanks to the Internet, took hardly any time at all. From MLB.com, the rule: Maybe the wording is confusing, but had that throw not been wild, the runner would have been out? Almost certainly, barring a great slide and/or missed tag. The point we're saying is that doesn't matter at all.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Nov 3, 2015 15:34:26 GMT -5
OK, in my usual manner, I didn't watch the World Series, but I'm assuming this was a sac fly and an errant throw on the play at the plate? If so, I think the confusion here is whether that's a double play or not if they are caught. I don't think it is. We typically call it that, but the official scoring is that the runner was "out advancing to home" or something like that. There are two plays: the original batted ball that was caught for an out. The runners tagging their base can then advance if they choose, but that's a separate play. So there can absolutely be an error on that second play.
A double play is two outs in the same play, either because a runner has to get to a base on a ground ball (a force play like a traditional 6-4-3) or a runner has to get back to the base they are currently occupying in the case of a ball caught on the fly. Once the runner gets back to that base, the play is over and subsequent plays are scored individually.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 3, 2015 15:37:49 GMT -5
Nope. See below. Runner on 3rd, 5-3 for the force, runner scores, technically on the throw to first, although Duda had him dead to rights with a good throw. Just look at the freeze frame that's there before you click play - it's pretty much beyond dispute that he's out with a good throw and even a semi-competent catcher.
By the way, nobody is mentioning this, but it killed me that the booth was referring to this as brilliant by Hosmer. It wound up being so, but unless they scouted Duda's arm and knew there was a good chance he blows the throw, this should have been running into the last out at home to end the GAME. I guess it's a chance you take up 3-1, but still - ballsy, yes; brilliant? eh...
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Post by soxfanatic on Nov 3, 2015 15:46:20 GMT -5
Nope. See below. Runner on 3rd, 5-3 for the force, runner scores, technically on the throw to first, although Duda had him dead to rights with a good throw. Just look at the freeze frame that's there before you click play - it's pretty much beyond dispute that he's out with a good throw and even a semi-competent catcher. By the way, nobody is mentioning this, but it killed me that the booth was referring to this as brilliant by Hosmer. It wound up being so, but unless they scouted Duda's arm and knew there was a good chance he blows the throw, this should have been running into the last out at home to end the GAME. I guess it's a chance you take up 3-1, but still - ballsy, yes; brilliant? eh... Andy McCullough @mcculloughstar KC advance scouting crushed this World Series. Told their players to test Duda's arm. And that, at some point, Murphy would butcher a ball.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 3, 2015 15:57:18 GMT -5
Well ok then.
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Post by jmei on Nov 3, 2015 15:57:24 GMT -5
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Post by brianthetaoist on Nov 3, 2015 15:57:58 GMT -5
Nope. See below. Runner on 3rd, 5-3 for the force, runner scores, technically on the throw to first, although Duda had him dead to rights with a good throw. Just look at the freeze frame that's there before you click play - it's pretty much beyond dispute that he's out with a good throw and even a semi-competent catcher. By the way, nobody is mentioning this, but it killed me that the booth was referring to this as brilliant by Hosmer. It wound up being so, but unless they scouted Duda's arm and knew there was a good chance he blows the throw, this should have been running into the last out at home to end the GAME. I guess it's a chance you take up 3-1, but still - ballsy, yes; brilliant? eh... Ah, well there ya go ... then I throw up my hands. My original point may stand, though, that the play is dead on the play at first and the Hosmer play is an independent play rather than a double play? edit to add: and, may I say, that that's an absolutely brutal way to lose the lead in a game. I knew there was some kind of error but hadn't paid enough attention to see what it was.
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Post by stevedillard on Nov 3, 2015 16:32:05 GMT -5
By the way, nobody is mentioning this, but it killed me that the booth was referring to this as brilliant by Hosmer. It wound up being so, but unless they scouted Duda's arm and knew there was a good chance he blows the throw, this should have been running into the last out at home to end the GAME. I guess it's a chance you take up 3-1, but still - ballsy, yes; brilliant? eh... On the same theory, they should have sent Gordon last year in the 7th game, knowing the throw would likely be off the mark quite a bit.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 3, 2015 17:27:52 GMT -5
By the way, nobody is mentioning this, but it killed me that the booth was referring to this as brilliant by Hosmer. It wound up being so, but unless they scouted Duda's arm and knew there was a good chance he blows the throw, this should have been running into the last out at home to end the GAME. I guess it's a chance you take up 3-1, but still - ballsy, yes; brilliant? eh... It really can't be said enough how much this series was about the Mets beating themselves.
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Post by iakovos11 on Nov 3, 2015 18:28:45 GMT -5
By the way, nobody is mentioning this, but it killed me that the booth was referring to this as brilliant by Hosmer. It wound up being so, but unless they scouted Duda's arm and knew there was a good chance he blows the throw, this should have been running into the last out at home to end the GAME. I guess it's a chance you take up 3-1, but still - ballsy, yes; brilliant? eh... It really can't be said enough how much this series was about the Mets beating themselves. Exactly what Frank Thomas said - ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/frank-thomas-tried-to-console-the-mets-and-failed-miserably
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 3, 2015 18:46:58 GMT -5
Andy McCullough @mcculloughstar KC advance scouting crushed this World Series. Told their players to test Duda's arm. And that, at some point, Murphy would butcher a ball.Definite points for the Duda's arm thing, especially given the circumstances and all. But my two-year-old daughter could've told them that Murphy would butcher a ball.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 3, 2015 20:41:42 GMT -5
Certainly, Familia blowing two saves and Duda's error is karmic payback for Mets fans still gloating about '86. Losing that series in 5 games, when they could have easily won it in 5, was downright (pre-2004) Red Soxian. To the victors go the spoils. As difficult as that moment was at the time, I don't resent the Mets at all for their victory as I have gotten older. By any realistic measure, the Mets didn't win that series.....The Red Sox lost it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2015 23:25:52 GMT -5
Certainly, Familia blowing two saves and Duda's error is karmic payback for Mets fans still gloating about '86. Losing that series in 5 games, when they could have easily won it in 5, was downright (pre-2004) Red Soxian. To the victors go the spoils. As difficult as that moment was at the time, I don't resent the Mets at all for their victory as I have gotten older. By any realistic measure, the Mets didn't win that series.....The Red Sox lost it. I resented the 1986 Mets because of their arrogance. I remember being annoyed when after they won Davey Johnson said something like, "Well, we're the best team. We should have won it!" And all I could think was it was gift wrapped for you. Credit to Carter, Mitchell, and Knight for refusing to make the last out, but the passed ball/wild pitch and the error were extreme gifts. Not to mention some terrible managing from the Red Sox dugout. The 2015 World Series felt like a little payback, but honestly, it was really hard to dislike the 2015 version of the Mets. They were likable and I didn't sense any of that Keith Hernandez like arrogance. If a Mets team had to win, I would have been fine with the 2015 version, but given how close KC was in 2014 and knowing that their window isn't huge, I'm glad they were able to capitalize. And truth be told, I'll always have a soft spot for the 1969 Mets and I was rooting for the Mets in the 2000 World Series of course.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 4, 2015 7:20:29 GMT -5
To the victors go the spoils. As difficult as that moment was at the time, I don't resent the Mets at all for their victory as I have gotten older. By any realistic measure, the Mets didn't win that series.....The Red Sox lost it. I resented the 1986 Mets because of their arrogance. I remember being annoyed when after they won Davey Johnson said something like, "Well, we're the best team. We should have won it!" And all I could think was it was gift wrapped for you. Credit to Carter, Mitchell, and Knight for refusing to make the last out, but the passed ball/wild pitch and the error were extreme gifts. Not to mention some terrible managing from the Red Sox dugout. The 2015 World Series felt like a little payback, but honestly, it was really hard to dislike the 2015 version of the Mets. They were likable and I didn't sense any of that Keith Hernandez like arrogance. If a Mets team had to win, I would have been fine with the 2015 version, but given how close KC was in 2014 and knowing that their window isn't huge, I'm glad they were able to capitalize. And truth be told, I'll always have a soft spot for the 1969 Mets and I was rooting for the Mets in the 2000 World Series of course. Didn't John Macnamara at one point say that he wanted Buckner on the field when they won the WS which is why he didn't substitute Dave Stapleton?
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 4, 2015 13:00:29 GMT -5
Didn't John Macnamara at one point say that he wanted Buckner on the field when they won the WS which is why he didn't substitute Dave Stapleton? I remember that being part of the record....there was the McNamara/Clemens fued during game 6.....the botched passed ball.....Schiraldi fail.....lead in Game 7....won first 2 games in NY....etc....etc...
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