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Post by chuckd on Nov 19, 2015 11:56:42 GMT -5
One can dream right.
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Post by seadogs34 on Nov 19, 2015 11:57:34 GMT -5
Has there been an actual report that Stanton is currently available? I think we may be getting ahead of ourselves with the Stanton/Fernandez trade proposals. Just landing Fernandez would damage the farm system quite a bit. I cant see them taking less than Devers, Kopech Erod and maybe some other moving parts and that may be on the cheap side.
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Post by chuckd on Nov 19, 2015 12:13:14 GMT -5
Yeah Stanton is not going anywhere. Jose probably isn't either but at least there is some smoke and rumors about clubhouse tension and of course the obvious Boras tension. They are gonna have to shop Jose in the next year or 2 anyways cause he won't sign an extension with them. Getting Ozuna back in a Jose deal is more realistic.(assuming getting Jose is even realistic)
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Nov 19, 2015 12:54:29 GMT -5
I would say attack it with quantity to make sure we aren't giving up Moncada,Devers,Benintendi,Swihart,Betts or Bogaerts(preferably not Espinosa either). Offer up JBJ,Owens,Kelly,Chavis,Brentz,and Kopech for Jose and Osuna. Then flip Osuna and B Johnson to Cleveland for Carrasco. Sign J Upton and O'day(or best lefty reliever on the market I know O'day isn't a lefty, lol). This would be my perfect offseason. Of course this assume's those guys are available and they would not just hold out for the above mentioned guys. But if you are the Marlins that is 2 young controllable MLB assets(Kelly and JBJ),2 young lottery tickets with huge upside(Chavis and Kopech) and another solid prospect close to MLB ready(Brentz). As far as Cleveland and Carrasco goes they are known to covet Osuna and him and B Johnson would fit pretty well I think. Again if you have to add another mid level prospect(Jerez?Aro?) so be it. Then Sign Upton to play left. O'Day is my favorite guy on the market as a set up guy and he can pitch the 7th, and him or Tazawa can step into Koji's 8th inning role the following year. All that said it probably never happens cause the Marlins aren't trading Jose. Would the sox then trade the rights to Jon Denney for Trout and Kukuks rights for Harper?
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Nov 19, 2015 13:17:37 GMT -5
Denney and Kukuk would both have 6 years until free agency so I think we'd have to question if it's worth giving that up for a couple years of Harper.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 19, 2015 13:54:06 GMT -5
Denney and Kukuk would both have 6 years until free agency so I think we'd have to question if it's worth giving that up for a couple years of Harper. It'd have to be a 5 team deal with some prospects going to both the Kansas and Floriday penal systems
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Post by chuckd on Nov 19, 2015 14:04:55 GMT -5
I would say attack it with quantity to make sure we aren't giving up Moncada,Devers,Benintendi,Swihart,Betts or Bogaerts(preferably not Espinosa either). Offer up JBJ,Owens,Kelly,Chavis,Brentz,and Kopech for Jose and Osuna. Then flip Osuna and B Johnson to Cleveland for Carrasco. Sign J Upton and O'day(or best lefty reliever on the market I know O'day isn't a lefty, lol). This would be my perfect offseason. Of course this assume's those guys are available and they would not just hold out for the above mentioned guys. But if you are the Marlins that is 2 young controllable MLB assets(Kelly and JBJ),2 young lottery tickets with huge upside(Chavis and Kopech) and another solid prospect close to MLB ready(Brentz). As far as Cleveland and Carrasco goes they are known to covet Osuna and him and B Johnson would fit pretty well I think. Again if you have to add another mid level prospect(Jerez?Aro?) so be it. Then Sign Upton to play left. O'Day is my favorite guy on the market as a set up guy and he can pitch the 7th, and him or Tazawa can step into Koji's 8th inning role the following year. All that said it probably never happens cause the Marlins aren't trading Jose. Would the sox then trade the rights to Jon Denney for Trout and Kukuks rights for Harper? No they would sign Upton and play him in left,Betts in CF and rusney in RF. No need to give up those guys for Trout and Harper. Try to keep up. lol
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Post by curll on Nov 19, 2015 15:19:10 GMT -5
Here's my stupid Stanton/Jose trade idea:
JBJ Castillo Owens Buchholz Devers Kopech Marrero
For
Jose Stanton Prado
LAD offers:
Puig Grant Holmes Jose De Leon Alex Wood and takes on Salty's money
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Post by amfox1 on Nov 19, 2015 15:38:39 GMT -5
Of course, one can dream. But one who dreams in this manner won't be taken seriously. Then again, at least one who dreams in this manner won't be alone. It's silly season.
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Post by chuckd on Nov 19, 2015 16:32:31 GMT -5
Alright if that isn't enough then how about this:
Ed Rodriguez,Owens,Shaw,JBJ,Kopech,Chavis for Fernandez,Ozuna and Capps
then this:
Ozuna,Espinosa and Jerez for Carrasco and Chisenhall
Would that be more realistic??
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Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 19, 2015 18:58:06 GMT -5
Alright if that isn't enough then how about this:
Ed Rodriguez,Owens,Shaw,JBJ,Kopech,Chavis for Fernandez,Ozuna and Capps
then this:
Ozuna,Espinosa and Jerez for Carrasco and Chisenhall
Would that be more realistic?? Closer - but probably still a bit light on the high-end prospects going to FLA. Another top guy will likely be needed (Swihart/Devers/Espinoza/Moncada). I don't see Ozuna and JBJ both in the deal making much sense. Think it's becoming a bit too complicated. And now that the Red Sox have their top RP, is Capps still needed? Agree on Owens and Rodriguez - think these two have to be the #1/2 and #3 pieces in a Fernandez trade as FLA needs the SP.
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Post by xanderdu on Nov 19, 2015 19:52:22 GMT -5
No one represented by Boras can be in a return package with Miami. With JF and Ozuna they are clearing his clients from their ranks. Sounds petty as hell, but we're talking about Loria and Sampson here.
I have no idea what a package might look like, but I believe it would have to start with Moncada.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 20, 2015 11:31:14 GMT -5
I think any trade between BOS and MIA for Fernandez (which is not going to happen, mind you) would have to include Bogaerts from MIA's point of view. If I'm MIA's FO, there is no chance I'm even considering a deal for Fernandez without Bogaerts or Betts. If DD concedes on Bogaerts, then I think there at least is a foundation for a trade. Otherwise, I quickly hang up the phone. People don't trade quarters for a dime and a handful of nickels. That makes zero sense. That line of thinking got the Phillies GM fired last year, well one of the reasons. With the young talent the Red Sox have and there many prospects there are a ton of deals that make sense for Marlins without Betts or Bogaerts. For example a trade were Swihart, Moncada or EROD as the best player would surely be something the Marlins might be interested in. It all depends what the Marlins would want.
"People don't trade quarters for a dime and a handful of nickels. " This isn't Basketball, they make trades like that all the time. You wanna know what's rare to see in a baseball trade? Trading two players that are about equal for one another. Teams with budget limits could surely benefit just as much from 6 years of a dime and a bunch of nickels as they would from 3 years of a quarter that's about to get real expensive. Oh yea and he hates his team. I hate this saying because there's no way Swihart, Moncada and EROD are dimes if Fernandez is a quarter. That saying might work if we tried to trade Bradley, Johnson, Kelly and Wright for Fernandez. No one is saying that. More like a quarter for a fifteen cent piece, a dime and 3 nickels.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 20, 2015 11:56:48 GMT -5
I don't see any trade for JF from either side.....You guys are right that they will ask for a kings ransom (& rightly so) & there is no way we are giving up a king's ransom.
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Post by chuckd on Nov 20, 2015 12:24:48 GMT -5
Alright if that isn't enough then how about this:
Ed Rodriguez,Owens,Shaw,JBJ,Kopech,Chavis for Fernandez,Ozuna and Capps
then this:
Ozuna,Espinosa and Jerez for Carrasco and Chisenhall
Would that be more realistic?? Closer - but probably still a bit light on the high-end prospects going to FLA. Another top guy will likely be needed (Swihart/Devers/Espinoza/Moncada). I don't see Ozuna and JBJ both in the deal making much sense. Think it's becoming a bit too complicated. And now that the Red Sox have their top RP, is Capps still needed? Agree on Owens and Rodriguez - think these two have to be the #1/2 and #3 pieces in a Fernandez trade as FLA needs the SP. The reason I included Ozuna for JBJ is that they obviously are shopping Ozuna and there is some bad blood there(plus he's a Boras guy and they inexplicably sent him down last year) but also because they have a huge ball park and JBJ is an elite defender. Elite defense up the middle is becoming worth more in baseball by the day. I am assuming the extra control and defense combined with the bad blood makes JBJ for Ozuna add value to the deal for the Marlins. Even if just a lil. Capps is not needed necessarily. It would just be a nice one stop shop and he is hitting arbitration years and the Marlins probably would prefer a guy like Shaw(IMO) who can play 1b/3b and allow them to deal Prado. So my thinking is E rod,Owens,Kopech and Chavis for Jose,Shaw for Capps and JBJ for Ozuna essentially. I think that is a hell of a ransom for a guy that they know won't sign an extension, had clubhouse tension last year and has been rumored to ask them to be traded and has some health issues. On the Red Sox end if he is healthy you have arguably the best pitcher in baseball for 3 years.(the first year will be only 150innings or so)
As far as the Carrasco deal IMO to get a live arm like Jerez as the 3rd piece for Chisenhall who at this point is a change of scenery guy with Ursella taking over 3b for them. Ozuna and Espinoza is a very good deal for them for Carrasco.(IMO)
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Post by chuckd on Nov 20, 2015 12:38:00 GMT -5
Also something I think gets slightly overlooked is the limited # of teams in baseball with ability to offer the marlins something like that. The 2 Young MLB arms, an MLB CF, plus guys like Chavis and Kopech who have shown elite flashes in the lower minors. Not many if any other teams in baseball can offer them that kind of package. But if we are going by the rumors being reported that A) Fernandez is being shopped B)The Marlins want ML or guys close to the ML ready for him C) There is dissention between his teammates and him and him and the front office D) they really are dumping Boras clients and E) Fernandez is HEALTHY, then the trade I proposed makes sense for both sides. I personally would not trade him if I were the Marlins. But if I were forced to then I would much prefer a package like above than one elite prospect and a couple lottery ticket A ball guys. I would want Quality and Quantity and guys that have already had success in the Big Leagues.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 20, 2015 12:41:04 GMT -5
For me, this isn't the time of year to be dreaming up ridiculous trades that will never happen, but that's just me. I'd rather focus on something that might happen, not a series of trades that includes most of the prospects or all of the All-Stars.
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Post by chuckd on Nov 20, 2015 13:46:36 GMT -5
For me, this isn't the time of year to be dreaming up ridiculous trades that will never happen, but that's just me. I'd rather focus on something that might happen, not a series of trades that includes most of the prospects or all of the All-Stars. You are right about never happening. But this is a thread titled Jose Fernandez in the Trade subsection of the Forum. What do you expect to be discussed here??
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 20, 2015 13:53:20 GMT -5
For me, this isn't the time of year to be dreaming up ridiculous trades that will never happen, but that's just me. I'd rather focus on something that might happen, not a series of trades that includes most of the prospects or all of the All-Stars. You are right about never happening. But this is a thread titled Jose Fernandez in the Trade subsection of the Forum. What do you expect to be discussed here?? Perhaps something that has a chance in a basis of reality rather than some of the crazy machinations that are being proposed, some of which are confusing as heck and make very little sense.
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Post by chuckd on Nov 20, 2015 14:08:07 GMT -5
You are right about never happening. But this is a thread titled Jose Fernandez in the Trade subsection of the Forum. What do you expect to be discussed here?? Perhaps something that has a chance in a basis of reality rather than some of the crazy machinations that are being proposed, some of which are confusing as heck and make very little sense. There is no basis in reality for the Marlins to actually trade Jose Fernandez.It has a very small percentage chance of happening. This is a thread to dream if they did what would the Sox give up to possibly get him. The reasons being given for the rumors of them trading him are conflict in the clubhouse, conflict with his agent Scott Boras, he is entering arbitration years where his cost will rise drastically until he leaves for free agency and the more years of control he has left the more you can get for him in a trade. How much they would take is up for debate, and that is what is being discussed. There is no right or wrong answer.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 20, 2015 14:13:16 GMT -5
Perhaps something that has a chance in a basis of reality rather than some of the crazy machinations that are being proposed, some of which are confusing as heck and make very little sense. There is no basis in reality for the Marlins to actually trade Jose Fernandez.It has a very small percentage chance of happening. This is a thread to dream if they did what would the Sox give up to possibly get him. The reasons being given for the rumors of them trading him are conflict in the clubhouse, conflict with his agent Scott Boras, he is entering arbitration years where his cost will rise drastically until he leaves for free agency and the more years of control he has left the more you can get for him in a trade. How much they would take is up for debate, and that is what is being discussed. There is no right or wrong answer. Didn't say there was a right answer/wrong answer. All I'm saying is that these humungous multi team deals that are being discussed have zero chance of happening, and when I mean humungous, I'm talking about the Sox clearing out their entire farm system (which is what it would take) to get Stanton and Fernandez (who likely will get shopped eventually, but apparently isn't being shopped now), with multiple teams, as if you could get so many other teams' GMs to agree, so that the Sox get everything they want. I'm probably not saying this the right way, so forgive me, but I like to think that the trades in this forum are conceptual trades that make some sort of sense instead of fantasy like deals in which you trade baseball cards like you did when you were a kid. We can't really talk conceptual trades in the other forums so this is what is left over to do that.
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Post by chuckd on Nov 20, 2015 17:00:26 GMT -5
Fair enough. I would agree that anything involving Stanton is just fantasy land. They just signed the guy to the biggest contract in baseball. But,I believe the proposal I suggested is very much in the context of what real front office guys would be looking for on both sides. While it may be confusing to you there is logic behind preferring superior defensive players or player proven on the MLB level as opposed to the higher profile guys in the Red Sox system.(Moncada Devers Benintendi) It also has to work for the Red Sox though and that means Betts,Swihart and Bogaerts are non starters.
So in order for both GM's to get what they need requires some outside the box thinking for sure. I wouldn't call this fantasy I believe both front offices would conceptually do the exact same thing we are, just with much more info and detail while taking into account other options, etc.. What we are discussing is what the end result would be. I am sure the Marlins would ask for Betts,Moncada and Swihart in the deal, and sell Jose as the best young pitcher in baseball.(which he is IMO) The Red Sox would scoff and point out that he is about to cost big $$ in Arb after this year, has been somewhat of a malcontent(reportedly) and he has a spotty track record health wise.(which is also true) The Marlins hold the upper hand in that they have time on their side. If they don't get something to their liking they just keep the player who is both a stud and a fan favorite.But if it were that simple he wouldn't be having his name out there as available in the first place. The Red Sox need their ACE now and would be trying to avoid the FA market for SP where prices are outrageous and the years invested are too long.
I think if I were the Marlins I would prefer a package headlined by Rodriguez,JBJ,Owens and Shaw to one headlined by say Moncada and Benentindi.(or Urias or another elite prospect from another team) It is a much easier sell to your fans and even Stanton to get back guys that would go directly into your rotation and lineup.Also there is reason to believe that a team that has rolled out Hechavvaria at SS the last few years places value on up the middle defense so they would hold JBJ in high regard. Plus the trade proposed would give them the upside on the backend as well with Kopech and Chavis. There is no other team in baseball that could offer that cause they either lack the ML ready players or the depth to deal that many really good prospects together.
As far as using Ozuna to get Carrasco, that was more in response to a comment earlier that the Indians didn't value Bradley as much as other teams. The red sox could just keep Ozuna and start him instead if that simplifies things enough. The Indians have just been known to have interest in Ozuna so I thought it would make sense pair him w/ Espinoza and another decent arm and get Carrasco to pair w/ Jose at the front of the rotation. Then either sign a FA OF like Gordon(yuk) or Upton(my preference) or Span(happy medium and no draft pick needed??) instead of spending on SP in the FA market, sign a lefty reliever maybe look into a swap for a OF bat off the bench and call it a day.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 20, 2015 17:16:05 GMT -5
Fair enough. I would agree that anything involving Stanton is just fantasy land. They just signed the guy to the biggest contract in baseball. But,I believe the proposal I suggested is very much in the context of what real front office guys would be looking for on both sides. While it may be confusing to you there is logic behind preferring superior defensive players or player proven on the MLB level as opposed to the higher profile guys in the Red Sox system.(Moncada Devers Benintendi) It also has to work for the Red Sox though and that means Betts,Swihart and Bogaerts are non starters.
So in order for both GM's to get what they need requires some outside the box thinking for sure. I wouldn't call this fantasy I believe both front offices would conceptually do the exact same thing we are, just with much more info and detail while taking into account other options, etc.. What we are discussing is what the end result would be. I am sure the Marlins would ask for Betts,Moncada and Swihart in the deal, and sell Jose as the best young pitcher in baseball.(which he is IMO) The Red Sox would scoff and point out that he is about to cost big $$ in Arb after this year, has been somewhat of a malcontent(reportedly) and he has a spotty track record health wise.(which is also true) The Marlins hold the upper hand in that they have time on their side. If they don't get something to their liking they just keep the player who is both a stud and a fan favorite.But if it were that simple he wouldn't be having his name out there as available in the first place. The Red Sox need their ACE now and would be trying to avoid the FA market for SP where prices are outrageous and the years invested are too long.
I think if I were the Marlins I would prefer a package headlined by Rodriguez,JBJ,Owens and Shaw to one headlined by say Moncada and Benentindi.(or Urias or another elite prospect from another team) It is a much easier sell to your fans and even Stanton to get back guys that would go directly into your rotation and lineup.Also there is reason to believe that a team that has rolled out Hechavvaria at SS the last few years places value on up the middle defense so they would hold JBJ in high regard. Plus the trade proposed would give them the upside on the backend as well with Kopech and Chavis. There is no other team in baseball that could offer that cause they either lack the ML ready players or the depth to deal that many really good prospects together.
As far as using Ozuna to get Carrasco, that was more in response to a comment earlier that the Indians didn't value Bradley as much as other teams. The red sox could just keep Ozuna and start him instead if that simplifies things enough. The Indians have just been known to have interest in Ozuna so I thought it would make sense pair him w/ Espinoza and another decent arm and get Carrasco to pair w/ Jose at the front of the rotation. Then either sign a FA OF like Gordon(yuk) or Upton(my preference) or Span(happy medium and no draft pick needed??) instead of spending on SP in the FA market, sign a lefty reliever maybe look into a swap for a OF bat off the bench and call it a day. If I'm the Marlins, I would be interested in E-Rod and would either have to have him or more likely Espinoza. JBJ is a nice player. Shaw and Owens are useful, but I'd rather have Devers or Moncada. You have to get the best prospects of a system if you're the Marlins, particularly one loaded like the Sox have. The closest player to Fernandez in ability would be Espinoza, a guy who could be a dominant young ace at 21. Rodriguez is a really good pitcher and major league ready and if that's the road they want to go on, fine, but you could have 6 years of service time for guys with the highest upsides, that's what I demand if I'm Miami. Owens, Shaw, and Bradley don't have the upside of Moncada or Devers or Espinoza or Benintendi. I honestly think DDo was telling the truth when he said he is done making major deals for the offseason. My guess is he has guys like Hazen and Ed Romero Jr in his ear telling him "Keep this guy. You shouldn't deal him...". My guess is Margot and Guerra were expendable and the other guys that I think would be required to make a deal for a starting pitcher are not considered expendable. Guess we'll see what happens. I think DDo will walk away with one of Price, Greinke, Cueto, or Zimmermann, with my guess being he winds up with Zimmermann.
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Post by chuckd on Nov 20, 2015 18:47:54 GMT -5
I should Clarify I meant Eduardo as the headliner instead of a Moncada or a Devers. Of course they will want both but I don't think the Red Sox will do both. If the Marlins prefer a deal with Moncada and Espinoza that is fine, they just wouldn't get Eduardo or JBJ on top of that IMO. And I don't think the secondary players would be as nice as Kopech and Chavis and Shaw. DD was definatley brought in to be aggresive. You look at his history and I don't think any prospect is "off limits". I am sure he is aware of how the scouting department views those guys and he would only move them in very specific circumstances which is why I say Eduardo and Moncada would not be in the same deal. But I think Red Sox fans are kidding themselves if they think DD is gonna sit on his farm players. The Sox have done an amazing job of cultivating talent and have IMO the best farm in baseball. DD using the depth of that farm system as currency to acquire talent to supplement the big league roster is what it is there for IMO. Guys like Fernandez and Carrasco are not only less expensive than signing even the 2nd teir of FA SP but they only require 3-4 year committments where the top 2 teirs of the FA market SP is gonna require 5 years minimum in most cases, and you are buying guys in their 30's not their prime. If the Marlins called tommorrow and said we'll do Jose for Moncada and Espinoza DD would fall out his chair saying yes. DD has his own shopping list but I imagine it is similar to all of ours ACE or 2 at the top of the rotation, left handed upgrade in the bullpen and a 4th OF. The Red Sox have the prospects base to trade for all of those as well as the bankroll to pay for all of those things. I personally would prefer to acquire the Ace or Aces through trade if possible. I have very lil faith in Bucholz being healthy and effective so 2 guys to front the rotation would be ideal.How they choose to acquire them is gonna be fascinating.
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Post by xanderdu on Nov 21, 2015 1:31:32 GMT -5
I'm not subtracting from the 2016 squad to add him, unless it's a pitcher going that way.
To that end, why couldn't Buchholz be a good starting point for a deal? Two years of control versus 3 years. Limited innings in both cases, but at least there's a possibility, however slim, that Buchholz throws most of a season. Real injury risk with both. Buchholz can pitch up to JF level, but by no means are they comparable one on one.
Miami needs starters and Buchholz is a pretty decent offset to the loss. Add in Moncada, and the value equation gets closer. I might even consider a flier arm addition. Two years of Buchholz, plus the first two years of Moncada for the first two years of JF, then 4 years of Moncada for the third year of JF. Sox supplement Buchholz to match expected arb vales for JF, so the cost is flat. Seems not enough, but when I look at the expected production, not so much.
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