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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 21, 2015 1:32:14 GMT -5
I should Clarify I meant Eduardo as the headliner instead of a Moncada or a Devers. Of course they will want both but I don't think the Red Sox will do both. If the Marlins prefer a deal with Moncada and Espinoza that is fine, they just wouldn't get Eduardo or JBJ on top of that IMO. And I don't think the secondary players would be as nice as Kopech and Chavis and Shaw. DD was definatley brought in to be aggresive. You look at his history and I don't think any prospect is "off limits". I am sure he is aware of how the scouting department views those guys and he would only move them in very specific circumstances which is why I say Eduardo and Moncada would not be in the same deal. But I think Red Sox fans are kidding themselves if they think DD is gonna sit on his farm players. The Sox have done an amazing job of cultivating talent and have IMO the best farm in baseball. DD using the depth of that farm system as currency to acquire talent to supplement the big league roster is what it is there for IMO. Guys like Fernandez and Carrasco are not only less expensive than signing even the 2nd teir of FA SP but they only require 3-4 year committments where the top 2 teirs of the FA market SP is gonna require 5 years minimum in most cases, and you are buying guys in their 30's not their prime. If the Marlins called tommorrow and said we'll do Jose for Moncada and Espinoza DD would fall out his chair saying yes. DD has his own shopping list but I imagine it is similar to all of ours ACE or 2 at the top of the rotation, left handed upgrade in the bullpen and a 4th OF. The Red Sox have the prospects base to trade for all of those as well as the bankroll to pay for all of those things. I personally would prefer to acquire the Ace or Aces through trade if possible. I have very lil faith in Bucholz being healthy and effective so 2 guys to front the rotation would be ideal.How they choose to acquire them is gonna be fascinating. If Espinoza is as good as he's hyped to be and there is zero evidence to the contrary, I wouldn't be too eager to deal his six seasons away, even as great as Fernandez is. And the Sox spent $63 million on Moncada because they feel he is that good. I'd much rather see the Sox spend money on a FA starter than deal Moncada and/or Espinoza. I'd hate to deal Devers, but would do so in a Fernandez deal, but that would hardly be enough unless it was an E-Rod was involved, but while Fernandez is an upgrade from E-Rod, I don't think DDo would make the deal, because you're upgrading one spot from potentially very good to great, not replacing a #5 type starter with an ace, which is a big difference. Whoever DDO signs as a FA will most likely displace Kelly into the bullpen.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 21, 2015 9:31:30 GMT -5
What if you could get him for Owens, Vasquez, Kopech and Shaw.
Owens and Vasquez and Kopech all Have been or are higher end prospects.
Owens, Vasquez and Shaw are all young players who have flashed or shown good to very good (maybe great) MLB PERFORMANCE.
All 4 are young cost controlled.
They can all fit positions of need with the Marlins.
Vasquez while coming off of injury fills a big black hole on their team and is the type of guy who if scouts are right about can maximize value of the staff which is key to a smaller market team.
For the Red Sox, oddly enough, short term Shaw may hurt the most to give up so maybe they try to deal Travis instead, but all are dealt from positions of depth and you still keep all the other top end young guys we've identified. Vasquez is hard to deal, but Fernandez is special as they come and are we really upset about Swithart being the future catcher?
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Post by chavopepe2 on Nov 21, 2015 9:56:15 GMT -5
What if you could get him for Owens, Vasquez, Kopech and Shaw. Owens and Vasquez and Kopech all Have been or are higher end prospects. Owens, Vasquez and Shaw are all young players who have flashed or shown good to very good (maybe great) MLB PERFORMANCE. All 4 are young cost controlled. They can all fit positions of need with the Marlins. Vasquez while coming off of injury fills a big black hole on their team and is the type of guy who if scouts are right about can maximize value of the staff which is key to a smaller market team. For the Red Sox, oddly enough, short term Shaw may hurt the most to give up so maybe they try to deal Travis instead, but all are dealt from positions of depth and you still keep all the other top end young guys we've identified. Vasquez is hard to deal, but Fernandez is special as they come and are we really upset about Swithart being the future catcher? The Marlins wouldn't come close to considering that deal.
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Post by jiant2520 on Nov 21, 2015 9:56:46 GMT -5
What if you could get him for Owens, Vasquez, Kopech and Shaw. Owens and Vasquez and Kopech all Have been or are higher end prospects. Owens, Vasquez and Shaw are all young players who have flashed or shown good to very good (maybe great) MLB PERFORMANCE. All 4 are young cost controlled. They can all fit positions of need with the Marlins. Vasquez while coming off of injury fills a big black hole on their team and is the type of guy who if scouts are right about can maximize value of the staff which is key to a smaller market team. For the Red Sox, oddly enough, short term Shaw may hurt the most to give up so maybe they try to deal Travis instead, but all are dealt from positions of depth and you still keep all the other top end young guys we've identified. Vasquez is hard to deal, but Fernandez is special as they come and are we really upset about Swithart being the future catcher? Nope. I don't think that is enough at all. Maybe replace Shaw with Devers. Vasquez is coming off injury and teams will want to see him healthy before trading for him, especially if they are giving up a,Fernandez type. Owens showed some good stuff, but did not "wow", anyone the way ERod did. Kopech got suspended and didn't finish the year. Shaw, well, we would be selling very high on, he was not expected to do what he did and the Sox, or anyone trading for him, have no idea if he can sustain that production. I think Devers will need to be included. Maybe Swihart too....
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 21, 2015 10:02:30 GMT -5
I'd include Devers but I think we often under estimate how much a guy flashing in the Majors increases his trade value. J.A. Happ makes me think of this or this makes me think of him.
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Post by ausox on Nov 21, 2015 10:34:26 GMT -5
What if you could get him for Owens, Vasquez, Kopech and Shaw. Owens and Vasquez and Kopech all Have been or are higher end prospects. Owens, Vasquez and Shaw are all young players who have flashed or shown good to very good (maybe great) MLB PERFORMANCE. All 4 are young cost controlled. They can all fit positions of need with the Marlins. Vasquez while coming off of injury fills a big black hole on their team and is the type of guy who if scouts are right about can maximize value of the staff which is key to a smaller market team. For the Red Sox, oddly enough, short term Shaw may hurt the most to give up so maybe they try to deal Travis instead, but all are dealt from positions of depth and you still keep all the other top end young guys we've identified. Vasquez is hard to deal, but Fernandez is special as they come and are we really upset about Swithart being the future catcher? I was thinking something along those lines but a little different. One area it would be difficult for other teams to compete with the Sox is major league ready talent. The return may not be as 'sexy' as trading for prospects but I think there is certainly some value to acquiring guys that can come in and contribute right away. It's a lot safer than trading for prospects (although admittedly the upside is lower) and the impact will be a lot quicker. I was thinking something along the lines of: Blake Swihart Henry Owens Rusney Castillo (plus cash) Sam Travis Michael Kopech/Brian Johnson/Pat Light for Jose Fernandez Marcell Ozuna Swihart would obviously be the major piece going to Miami and would be tough to give up without knowing how Vasquez will rebound from injury.12 months ago Owens was a top 20 prospect and has shown some potential in the majors. Castillo takes over in CF and could be a very popular/marketable figure with the large local Cuban population. Travis isn't far from the majors and 1B is one of Miami's weaker positions. The final player would really depend on what Miami is looking for in return. If they want a top pitching prospect then they can have anyone but Espinoza (likely Kopech). If they want another young MLB ready starter then Johnson would make the most sense. And if they want an upside bullpen arm then Pat Light could be an attractive option for them. From Miami's side, there has been a lot of talk of them wanting to move Ozuna, so a trade with the Red Sox would make sense where they can swap Ozuna for Castillo (and cash). If giving up Ozuna in this trade is too much for the Marlins, they could flip him to another team for pitching and the Sox would then have to find 2 OF's. It may not be the 'sexiest' return for the Marlins, but I think a package that gives them MLB starters at C and CF, a young replacement in the rotation, a first baseman who could be a starter within the next 12 months and their choice of secondary pitching option isn't a horrible offer. I'm still not sure if I would go after Fernandez though. You obviously have to take into consideration the injury (an limited innings next season), the reported clubhouse issues and of course the Boras factor. If we were to make a trade like this I would still go after David Price though. Fernandez might be a legitimate ace, but coming off injury and being limited innings wise I still think we need a horse at the front of the rotation.
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Post by amfox1 on Nov 21, 2015 12:31:26 GMT -5
Replace Castillo with JBJ and Owens with Moncada and then I think you are in the right area code.
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Post by orcoaster on Nov 21, 2015 16:53:44 GMT -5
Replace Castillo with JBJ and Owens with Moncada and then I think you are in the right area code. How about Swihart Devers E Rodriguez Kopech Does that get a call back? If Fernandez is truly available and healthy, I think DD should go all in. I just wonder if it could be done without including Moncada, Espinoza, Bogaerts, Betts, or Bradley.
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Post by larrycook on Nov 21, 2015 21:08:45 GMT -5
Replace Castillo with JBJ and Owens with Moncada and then I think you are in the right area code. How about Swihart Devers E Rodriguez Kopech Does that get a call back? If Fernandez is truly available and healthy, I think DD should go all in. I just wonder if it could be done without including Moncada, Espinoza, Bogaerts, Betts, or Bradley. I have no problem making moncada the center piece of prospects we give up for Fernandez, but only after we sign price as a free agent. E Rodriguez, betts, boegarts and swihart are my only untouchables.
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Post by orcoaster on Nov 21, 2015 22:20:44 GMT -5
I would include Moncada too in order to get Fernandez, but I'd rather not if I didn't have to. It would be nice to keep ERod also, but he seems to be a natural inclusion to the trade. Fernandez is an appreciable upgrade on ERod.
Regardless, a free agent signing is a part of this transaction. I prefer Greinke to Price. This rotation gets me excited for spring.
Greinke Fernandez Buccholz Porcello Miley
with Owens, Wright, and Kelly at the ready.
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Post by bobbyk on Dec 7, 2015 19:23:42 GMT -5
Think it would take Rodriguez, Moncada,Jbj,Owens... But for a 23 year old ace to put behind price why not.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Dec 7, 2015 20:18:59 GMT -5
I was thinking either
Rodriguez and 2 of JBJ/Swihart/Moncada/Devers
or
Owens and 3 of JBJ/Swihart/Moncada/Devers
I'm not sure if the Marlins would bite, but we'd keep one or two of JBJ/Swihart/Moncada/Devers and we'd keep Espinosa and have Price/Fernandez/Buchholz and possibly Rodriguez as a 1-4.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Dec 7, 2015 23:18:27 GMT -5
For anyone still thinking about Fernandez, Heyman says Marlins asked Diamondbacks for "2 of best players plus top prospects".
One would assume that Goldschmidt + Pollock + Prospects lol
Lets quit with the Fernandez talk unless we're willing to throw in Betts + Bogaerts + Moncada
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2015 7:46:17 GMT -5
For anyone still thinking about Fernandez, Heyman says Marlins asked Diamondbacks for "2 of best players plus top prospects". One would assume that Goldschmidt + Pollock + Prospects lol Lets quit with the Fernandez talk unless we're willing to throw in Betts + Bogaerts + Moncada I mean why even bother putting him on the trade block? No one is that dumb.
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Post by jmei on Dec 8, 2015 7:49:45 GMT -5
As the Hamels saga showed, initial asking price is very different from final selling price.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 8, 2015 8:54:03 GMT -5
Is that article somehow implying that the Marlins management deserves to be treated like adults?
Anyway, I feel like E-Rod + Swihart + a third piece such as Owens/Johnson/Kopech/Travis/Shaw is in the right ballpark value-wise and would make sense for both sides.
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Post by jmei on Dec 8, 2015 8:59:17 GMT -5
Is that article somehow implying that the Marlins management deserves to be treated like adults? Anyway, I feel like E-Rod + Swihart + a third piece such as Owens/Johnson/Kopech/Travis/Shaw is in the right ballpark value-wise and would make sense for both sides. I might do that trade. Would the Marlins?
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Post by chavopepe2 on Dec 8, 2015 9:24:23 GMT -5
Is that article somehow implying that the Marlins management deserves to be treated like adults? Anyway, I feel like E-Rod + Swihart + a third piece such as Owens/Johnson/Kopech/Travis/Shaw is in the right ballpark value-wise and would make sense for both sides. I might do that trade. Would the Marlins? If they're actually considering trading him they would consider that deal. Swihart and Rodriguez are both top 20ish prospects talent-wise and have shown success in the majors making their value even higher than that. I don't see anyone offering a better deal than that. Edit add: look at the Yankees for example. They could offer maybe Severino and Judge? Swihart and Rodriguez is a better deal than that.
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Post by jmei on Dec 8, 2015 9:46:06 GMT -5
The Yankees aren't the best example of a prospect-rich team, though. The Cubs or Dodgers could offer superior packages, for instance, and maybe the Twins or Pirates. I do agree that it seems like it'd be a competitive package.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Dec 8, 2015 9:55:02 GMT -5
The Yankees aren't the best example of a prospect-rich team, though. The Cubs or Dodgers could offer superior packages, for instance, and maybe the Twins or Pirates. I do agree that it seems like it'd be a competitive package. Of course they could. I never said otherwise. I said I don't see anyone else offering a better deal. The Dodgers aren't offering Urias and Seager. I don't see the Cubs offering two of Shwarber, Russell, or Soler. I think Rodriguez and Swihart (and a third piece) would be amongst the very best offers they would get so if they were serious about trading him they would consider it.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,903
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Post by nomar on Dec 8, 2015 10:40:57 GMT -5
I'm fine with the Yankees trading for Fernandez because they'd have to kill their team long term. They have no depth and it would cost Severino, Judge and Bird probably, who are the only players I see there in 5 years right now.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2015 13:05:21 GMT -5
As the Hamels saga showed, initial asking price is very different from final selling price. The initial asking price lets you know whether they're serious about trading him and if it's worth even talking to them. If that's the starting point, it's not.
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Post by jmei on Dec 8, 2015 13:21:30 GMT -5
As the Hamels saga showed, initial asking price is very different from final selling price. The initial asking price lets you know whether they're serious about trading him and if it's worth even talking to them. If that's the starting point, it's not. You're right, but it's only suggestive of their seriousness and not dispositive. If they don't come down at all after a couple counteroffers, that's when you really know they're not serious.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 8, 2015 13:36:07 GMT -5
The initial asking price lets you know whether they're serious about trading him and if it's worth even talking to them. If that's the starting point, it's not. You're right, but it's only suggestive of their seriousness and not dispositive. If they don't come down at all after a couple counteroffers, that's when you really know they're not serious. Which is why, as we all know, Cole Hamels never got traded.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 8, 2015 13:40:29 GMT -5
You're right, but it's only suggestive of their seriousness and not dispositive. If they don't come down at all after a couple counteroffers, that's when you really know they're not serious. Which is why, as we all know, Cole Hamels never got traded. Well the rest of the story is that he got traded for about 1/10th of what the initial demands were.
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