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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 8, 2015 15:17:35 GMT -5
As mentioned in the initial post, I don't think the Marlins would be interested in a trade that featured less than 2 young MLB ready SP and a third major piece. Rationale is that SP seems to be where they need the most help and there's no point in trading Fernandez now unless they can keep the team competitive for the short term (as well as the long term).
What talent-rich team would be in better shape to offer 2 young starters better than Rodriguez + Owens? (this isn't rhetorical)
Can argue over the third piece being Moncada, Devers, Beni, Swihart, etc.
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Dec 9, 2015 14:59:32 GMT -5
Carson Smith will probably get Tommy John! booo!
I hate Clay Buchholz because he won't throw more than 160-170 innings!
(then)
Let's trade our most valuable assets for Jose Fernandez! A guy who will most likely be on a 160 innings cap! Who had arm troubles last year after needing Tommy John after not really throwing that much at all!
/sox fans
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Post by jmei on Dec 9, 2015 15:17:25 GMT -5
Carson Smith will probably get Tommy John! booo! I hate Clay Buchholz because he won't throw more than 160-170 innings! (then) Let's trade our most valuable assets for Jose Fernandez! A guy who will most likely be on a 160 innings cap! Who had arm troubles last year after needing Tommy John after not really throwing that much at all! /sox fans I'm pretty confident that no one poster has expressed all three of those opinions. Is your point just that Red Sox fans sometimes disagree about things?
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,827
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Post by steveofbradenton on Dec 9, 2015 15:27:41 GMT -5
Carson Smith will probably get Tommy John! booo! I hate Clay Buchholz because he won't throw more than 160-170 innings! (then) Let's trade our most valuable assets for Jose Fernandez! A guy who will most likely be on a 160 innings cap! Who had arm troubles last year after needing Tommy John after not really throwing that much at all! /sox fans I'm pretty confident that no one poster has expressed all three of those opinions. Is your point just that Red Sox fans sometimes disagree about things? That can't be true!! One of the reasons, I do read this blog like crazy, is that we have different opinions and it makes me think about other views. But yeah, Red Sox Nation does do a lot of 2nd guessing. I'm surprised we haven't replaced Tom Brady with that guy I keep hearing about....you know....the Arm Chair Quarterback.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 9, 2015 15:28:11 GMT -5
Nothing like generalizing 100 things and pointing out that some of those generalizations are hypocritical.
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Post by goldenmonkey34 on Dec 9, 2015 15:58:39 GMT -5
Considering what the Marlins asked for from the Dodgers (Urias, Seager, Pederson, AND two more prospects) there's no way we even begin discussion without Moncada, ERod, and Devers. I mean just look what the Braves got for Miller, who i think is just a glorified Wade Miley that's younger and cheaper. Players like Fernandez demand multiple top 5 prospects and young mlb ready cost controlled players, period. theres no way getting around it by throwing together a bunch of guys from 5-10 rankings. Quality over quantity
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Post by jrffam05 on Dec 9, 2015 17:25:09 GMT -5
I think the Red Sox preempted the market enough that they don't need to force a move for a starter. If the Marlins become more reasonable, I'd be interested, but trading 4 huge pieces for 3 years of a Boras pitcher coming TJ doesn't make sense. Out of Kelly, Elias, Owens, and Johnson starting in the 5th spot, we should reasonable get 1.5 WAR for the year, so even a 5 war pitcher is only adding 3.5 wins.
I get the upside and youth part, but he is coming off injury, only controlled for 3 years, and will probably test free agency. Maybe if we missed on Price and had another $30M more to spend it makes sense, but I wouldn't gut my farm system for this guy.
Side note, the Miller trade completely puzzles me. I think he is a good pitcher, but not worth that haul for 3 years.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2015 12:06:42 GMT -5
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 11, 2015 13:22:41 GMT -5
Sweet baby Jesus.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 11, 2015 13:34:16 GMT -5
That pitcher probably would have been Espinoza. Nice of them to let the Sox keep Devers, Benintendi, and Swihart. The price of pitching through trades has been astronomical this offseason. I think DDo sized up that getting Kimbrel in a deal was more palatable than a starting pitcher. DDo held the line at those three prospects he was willing to give up, and he knew they wouldn't be nearly enough to secure a top notch young starting pitcher. And what the Braves did to the D-Backs (or more accurately, what the D-Backs let the Braves do to them)....yeesh. I'm totally thankful the Sox wrapped up Price so quickly - and before Greinke's annual salary blew away what price got by a sizable margin. The other interesting part of that article was Cueto's agent saying that Cueto wanted to pitch for the Red Sox. I normally don't believe what agents say, but in this case I believe it. He'll get his $125 - $150 million from somebody, whether it's the Cards or Dodgers or even Giants, but if he became available in a pillow contract, I'd like to see the Sox grab him, but I don't think he will become available as a pillow contract, nor do I think DDo would want to add an extra $20 something million to the payroll (even if the Sox did dump Buchholz).
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 11, 2015 14:18:07 GMT -5
Take out Betts, add in Bradley and Owens and sign me up
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2015 15:07:43 GMT -5
Take out Betts, add in Bradley and Owens and sign me up That's still crazy. Then what do we do in 3 years? Sign free agents at every position because there are no more prospects? Remember how awesome that works?
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 11, 2015 15:15:16 GMT -5
Take out Betts, add in Bradley and Owens and sign me up That's still crazy. Then what do we do in 3 years? Sign free agents at every position because there are no more prospects? Remember how awesome that works? What do you mean no more prospects? You aren't even opening many holes. Swithart is your catcher so you don't need Vasquez. ERod is replaced by Fernandez. Bradley had AB behind him but you'd need to replace him this year. Owens is replaceable. Moncada is the guy you're really losing which is big but it's Fernandez. But yes it's a lot, but he's a guy is risk it for. The guy is as good as Pedro whenever he's on the hill. That's not even a stretch to say. No chance I include Betts though and I would have that throw up feeling in my throat fighting against the most excitement since he Pedro acquiring after my proposal. Watching Jose pitch is incredible. He's unreal. Hardcore physical needs to be done tho.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2015 15:17:54 GMT -5
That's still crazy. Then what do we do in 3 years? Sign free agents at every position because there are no more prospects? Remember how awesome that works? What do you mean no more prospects? You aren't even opening many holes. Swithart is your catcher so you don't need Vasquez. ERod is replaced by Fernandez. Bradley had AB behind him but you'd need to replace him this year. Owens is replaceable. Moncada is the guy you're really losing which is big but it's Fernandez. But yes it's a lot, but he's a guy is risk it for. The guy is as good as Pedro whenever he's on the hill. That's not even a stretch to say. No chance I include Betts though and I would have that throw up feeling in my throat fighting against the most excitement since he Pedro acquiring after my proposal. Watching Jose pitch is incredible. He's unreal. Hardcore physical needs to be done tho. In 3 years when Fernandez is making $50 million a year...
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 11, 2015 15:27:45 GMT -5
If he's making that much in three years then my deal was well worth it. Means health and domination.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2015 15:34:20 GMT -5
If he's making that much in three years then my deal was well worth it. Means health and domination. That's fine, but the question was "what do we do in 3 years?". I assume the answer is that you don't care.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 11, 2015 16:11:16 GMT -5
If he's making that much in three years then my deal was well worth it. Means health and domination. That's fine, but the question was "what do we do in 3 years?". I assume the answer is that you don't care. Of course I care but why does that trade hurt us in three years minus Moncada?
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 11, 2015 16:20:34 GMT -5
That's fine, but the question was "what do we do in 3 years?". I assume the answer is that you don't care. Of course I care but why does that trade hurt us in three years minus Moncada? We'd also be without Vazquez (who could be traded for something else if you wanted to keep Swihart instead), Owens, JBJ, Rodriguez, Moncada and probably Espinoza. Those are all players who wouldn't be making much in 2019, none of which we'd have to pencil into the lineup for cheap. Or traded for other cheap useful players. So you're stuck with the very few prospects they'd have left and then turn to free agency for a whole lot more spots than is a good idea. The exact reason why they could go sign Price this winter is because of all of this high end talent on the way. They know they're going to have high performing players in other roster spots who are making peanuts.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 11, 2015 17:56:10 GMT -5
That's still crazy. Then what do we do in 3 years? Sign free agents at every position because there are no more prospects? Remember how awesome that works? What do you mean no more prospects? You aren't even opening many holes. Swithart is your catcher so you don't need Vasquez. ERod is replaced by Fernandez. Bradley had AB behind him but you'd need to replace him this year. Owens is replaceable. Moncada is the guy you're really losing which is big but it's Fernandez. But yes it's a lot, but he's a guy is risk it for. The guy is as good as Pedro whenever he's on the hill. That's not even a stretch to say. No chance I include Betts though and I would have that throw up feeling in my throat fighting against the most excitement since he Pedro acquiring after my proposal. Watching Jose pitch is incredible. He's unreal. Hardcore physical needs to be done tho. In three years, he's gone. Either the elbow's blown out again or he's a FA. So, no. Nonononono.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 11, 2015 17:59:30 GMT -5
After seeing what the Sox got for Miley, and what the D-Backs threw away (?!?!) for Miller, I'm a lot happier about the Kimbrel deal. I'm also feeling very good about the incredible depth the Sox have at SP. If they want to flip some of those guys at the deadline, and the market is at all like this, they're going to do very well. Imagine if Buchholz is pitching well, but two of Kelly/Owens/Elias/Johnson are too. They could trade Buchholz for a king's ransom.
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Post by jrffam05 on Dec 11, 2015 18:40:17 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade Betts alone for Fernandez by a long shot.
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Post by larrycook on Dec 11, 2015 21:50:18 GMT -5
I wouldn't trade Betts alone for Fernandez by a long shot. Amen brother! Betts is untouchable! Fernandez is amazing, no doubt about it. Instant upgrade to our rotation if healthy and pitching like before the injury. But betts is untouchable.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 12, 2015 11:56:39 GMT -5
I don't think anyone needs convincing that Betts shouldn't be dealt
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Post by jiant2520 on Dec 12, 2015 13:52:50 GMT -5
Heres my way too out there trade proposal:
Mia - Salazar, Devers, Kopech, Travis,
Clv - Frazier, Bradley , Buchholz
Cin - Owens, Chavis, Light
Bos - Fernandez, B. Shaw
It should be noted that I know we are giving up a lot of quantity. Alsoñ I know it is most likely not to happen, but I had fun trying.
The sox are giving up too much, I know, I know.
The thing is... Cin will want a lot for Frazier as he has two years left at like only 6 mil each. Plus, there are no other 3B options out there and he hits home runs. Clv wants a ton for a potential ace on the cheap with 5 years of control. Miami, we already know they want the entire north east for Fernandez.
In all. We will be paying way too much to get Fernandez this year.
I've said this a few times over the past few weeks... our best chance at Salazar or Carrasco will be to include a third team like Col or Cin... probably Col as Gonzalez has a higher salary and as such should cost a bit less to aquire.
Honestly, I'd like to have Gonzalez, but if the Sox could get him and flip him into a #2, a good #2, we should do it, as always, in my opinion.
Fernandez behind Price though....
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Post by pokeyreesespieces on Dec 12, 2015 13:57:22 GMT -5
Heres my way too out there trade proposal: Mia - Salazar, Devers, Kopech, Travis, Clv - Frazier, Bradley , Buchholz Cin - Owens, Chavis, Light Bos - Fernandez, B. Shaw It should be noted that I know we are giving up a lot of quantity. Alsoñ I know it is most likely not to happen, but I had fun trying. The sox are giving up too much, I know, I know. The thing is... Cin will want a lot for Frazier as he has two years left at like only 6 mil each. Plus, there are no other 3B options out there and he hits home runs. Clv wants a ton for a potential ace on the cheap with 5 years of control. Miami, we already know they want the entire north east for Fernandez. In all. We will be paying way too much to get Fernandez this year. I've said this a few times over the past few weeks... our best chance at Salazar or Carrasco will be to include a third team like Col or Cin... probably Col as Gonzalez has a higher salary and as such should cost a bit less to aquire. Honestly, I'd like to have Gonzalez, but if the Sox could get him and flip him into a #2, a good #2, we should do it, as always, in my opinion. Fernandez behind Price though.... What? Why would they Sox give up Buchholz, Owens, Kopech, Bradley Jr. Devers, Sam Travis, Chavis, Pat Light for Jose Fernandez and a reliever they don't need?
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