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Red Sox acquire Craig Kimbrel for Margot, Guerra +
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jul 26, 2016 13:18:00 GMT -5
Can we lock (and maybe burn) this thread? I feel like it will keep getting dug up. Heck, people are so obsessed with the Kimbrel deal that they are talking about it when Chapman got traded.
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Post by joshv02 on Jul 26, 2016 14:47:26 GMT -5
My point was that every team could have gotten him for pennies on the dollar. It's hard to show less of an awareness of economics than this sentence.
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Post by bosox81 on Aug 5, 2016 9:36:46 GMT -5
Margot and Guerra so far look like they were traded at the top of their prospect rating, and their likelihood of bust has increased since the trade. You continue to repeat this like a broken record, and it continues to not be true. Margot last night: 6 PA, 5 H, 2 2B, 2 HR, 0 BB, 0 K. His last ten games triple slash: .421/.450/.684. But of course, someone will still somehow keep arguing that Margot was traded at the top of his prospect rating.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Aug 5, 2016 9:54:30 GMT -5
Margot now has an .816 OPS, 117 wRC+, and 9 K%, while being a plus defender.
You can love the trade, or you can hate the trade. But disparaging Margot is ridiculous. The kid is a stud. He's going to be a very valuable player.
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Post by jmei on Aug 5, 2016 10:16:30 GMT -5
Hot take: if Margot was still in the system, he (plus another minor piece or two, if necessary) would have been enough to acquire Pomeranz.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Aug 5, 2016 11:07:29 GMT -5
Hot take: if Margot was still in the system, he (plus another minor piece or two, if necessary) would have been enough to acquire Pomeranz. With Uehara on the shelf, and we still had Margot @ the deadline, we'd have just traded him for Kimbrel then as well as Espinoza for Pomz. Though we may have not had to move the other pieces along with Margot.
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2016 11:35:20 GMT -5
2 Buddhist monks, sworn to strictest chastity, are walking by a river, when they see a naked woman drowning. The elder monk rushes out, picks her up, carries her to shore.
They continue on. Half an hour later, the younger monk stops and says," master, how could you? We swore never to touch women?"
The master said,"Are you still carrying that woman? I put her down 1/2 an hour ago."
Time to put Margot down.
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Post by rafael on Aug 5, 2016 11:47:02 GMT -5
If Margot was still in the system, he would be our starting LF right now.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 5, 2016 11:57:26 GMT -5
Hot take: if Margot was still in the system, he (plus another minor piece or two, if necessary) would have been enough to acquire Pomeranz. It's tough to know how the industry values these guys exactly, but a position player who's essentially major league ready might actually bring back more than Espinoza. Or you'd have the option of including both in a trade and getting a legit stud in return (maybe, I'm not sure that guy was out there, but still).
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Post by telluricrook on Aug 5, 2016 12:15:55 GMT -5
He has been ready for the MLB all year. Probably going to going to be a call up in September.
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Post by bosox81 on Aug 5, 2016 12:33:03 GMT -5
Hot take: if Margot was still in the system, he (plus another minor piece or two, if necessary) would have been enough to acquire Pomeranz. It's tough to know how the industry values these guys exactly, but a position player who's essentially major league ready might actually bring back more than Espinoza. Or you'd have the option of including both in a trade and getting a legit stud in return (maybe, I'm not sure that guy was out there, but still). Not only this, but it's a major league ready outfielder with excellent glove now vs. a single A pitcher. Margot definitely would've had more value than Espinoza. EDIT: I didn't see the "major league ready" part, so I'm just repeating what you already said.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 5, 2016 12:37:41 GMT -5
Hot take: if Margot was still in the system, he (plus another minor piece or two, if necessary) would have been enough to acquire Pomeranz. It's tough to know how the industry values these guys exactly, but a position player who's essentially major league ready might actually bring back more than Espinoza. Or you'd have the option of including both in a trade and getting a legit stud in return (maybe, I'm not sure that guy was out there, but still). Or we'd have the option to trade JBJ for a TOR pitcher. Or we could use Margot over Brentz.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 5, 2016 14:43:41 GMT -5
Man did Kimbrel look like his vintage self last night! Fun to watch!
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Post by deepjohn on Aug 5, 2016 16:47:30 GMT -5
Margot now has an .816 OPS, 117 wRC+, and 9 K%, while being a plus defender. You can love the trade, or you can hate the trade. But disparaging Margot is ridiculous. The kid is a stud. He's going to be a very valuable player. Yeah, I don't mean to disparage anybody. I think anybody that plays professional baseball is amazing. But it looks like his prospect ranking has gone from 18 down to 50ish. He also hasn't been called up to replace Melvin Upton. Right now they're using weak hitting Jankowski in CF. Meanwhile, Margot is on the 40 man. The reason could be that Margot is said to be battling a foot injury, or possibly an achilles. With that kind of (possibly chronic) injury, it's unlikely the Sox could have traded Margot at the deadline, at least not at the value they got for Kimbrel. The comparable value here now is what Preller could have gotten for Kimbrel in July, compared to what Cashman got for Miller and Chapman. I think Preller probably wishes he waited, and DDo probably has no regrets that he traded when he did. And nor should we, Red Sox fans! ADD: you may want to lock this thread, because we know how it turned out, now. If you think DDo could have done better by waiting to trade for a closer in July, hey, that's your right as an American!
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2016 16:52:45 GMT -5
Hot take: if Margot was still in the system, he (plus another minor piece or two, if necessary) would have been enough to acquire Pomeranz. We'll never know but when a team normally trades their best starting pitcher, you'd think they'd want an extremely promising starting pitcher back in the deal, so I doubt that Margot would have been the centerpiece of the Pomeranz deal. I don't think Margot/Owens or Lakins, etc gets the deal for Pomeranz done, but we'll never know for sure. The only thing we do know is they were so high on Espinoza (and with great reason) that they were fine with swapping their ace with service time even up.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2016 16:57:15 GMT -5
Margot now has an .816 OPS, 117 wRC+, and 9 K%, while being a plus defender. You can love the trade, or you can hate the trade. But disparaging Margot is ridiculous. The kid is a stud. He's going to be a very valuable player. Yeah, I don't mean to disparage anybody. I think anybody that plays professional baseball is amazing. But it looks like his prospect ranking has gone from 18 down to 50ish. He also hasn't been called up to replace Melvin Upton. Right now they're using weak hitting Jankowski in CF. Meanwhile, Margot is on the 40 man. The reason could be that Margot is said to be battling a foot injury, or possibly an achilles. With that kind of (possibly chronic) injury, it's unlikely the Sox could have traded Margot at the deadline, at least not at the value they got for Kimbrel. The comparable value here now is what Preller could have gotten for Kimbrel in July, compared to what Cashman got for Miller and Chapman. I think Preller probably wishes he waited, and DDo probably has no regrets that he traded when he did. And nor should we, Red Sox fans! I don't regret the thought behind the deal but I regret that thus far the Red Sox haven't gotten the closer they thought they were getting. The Kimbrel that was with the Braves was lights out dominating (making me think of Billy Wagner in his heyday), and the Kimbrel the Padres had struggled mightily early adjusting after the sudden surprising trade, but was his old self the remainder of the year. The Kimbrel the Sox got has not been top notch. We've seen flashes of it, but we've also seen him unable to throw strikes consistently enough, and he hasn't always gotten the key out when he needed it. It's disappointing - sort of like with David Price - I loved the logic behind the signing, but the results haven't been as dominating for either Price or Kimbrel as I think they should have been. Maybe both rebound next year to previous levels - they're certainly young enough and have enough of a track record to do so.
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Post by deepjohn on Aug 5, 2016 17:14:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't mean to disparage anybody. I think anybody that plays professional baseball is amazing. But it looks like his prospect ranking has gone from 18 down to 50ish. He also hasn't been called up to replace Melvin Upton. Right now they're using weak hitting Jankowski in CF. Meanwhile, Margot is on the 40 man. The reason could be that Margot is said to be battling a foot injury, or possibly an achilles. With that kind of (possibly chronic) injury, it's unlikely the Sox could have traded Margot at the deadline, at least not at the value they got for Kimbrel. The comparable value here now is what Preller could have gotten for Kimbrel in July, compared to what Cashman got for Miller and Chapman. I think Preller probably wishes he waited, and DDo probably has no regrets that he traded when he did. And nor should we, Red Sox fans! I don't regret the thought behind the deal but I regret that thus far the Red Sox haven't gotten the closer they thought they were getting. The Kimbrel that was with the Braves was lights out dominating (making me think of Billy Wagner in his heyday), and the Kimbrel the Padres had struggled mightily early adjusting after the sudden surprising trade, but was his old self the remainder of the year. The Kimbrel the Sox got has not been top notch. We've seen flashes of it, but we've also seen him unable to throw strikes consistently enough, and he hasn't always gotten the key out when he needed it. It's disappointing - sort of like with David Price - I loved the logic behind the signing, but the results haven't been as dominating for either Price or Kimbrel as I think they should have been. Maybe both rebound next year to previous levels - they're certainly young enough and have enough of a track record to do so. The dog days of August are upon us. October beckons like a fetching maiden. We shall see.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Aug 13, 2016 6:46:50 GMT -5
The best alternative to the Kimbrel trade was signing 32-33YO setup man Darren O'Day and making him a closer: "setup man Darren O’Day was traveling back to Baltimore get his right shoulder examined Saturday. Orioles manager Buck Showalter said O’Day felt some “posterior shoulder discomfort” during his outing Thursday in Oakland, where the right-hander allowed two runs in one-third of an inning and let an inherited runner score. O’Day will miss the Orioles’ series in San Francisco, and maybe more time depending on team orthopedist Dr. Michael Jacobs' evaluation of the shoulder. “I feel pretty confident he would not have pitched here with what he told us yesterday,” Showalter said. “We have some hope that something could resolve itself by Tuesday or Wednesday.” [...] “We’re hoping it’s something that will resolve itself quickly,” Showalter said. “It’s yet to be seen whether they’ll inject him [with cortisone] or not. I don’t know if they’ll do it tomorrow. With the off-day [Monday], we probably wouldn’t have pitched him today or the weekend. It was prudent to get him there. If we get some type of news from Dr. Jacobs, we don’t want to [have to] get a guy across the country, so we thought it was smart to get Tyler out here.” Showalter said Thursday was the first time O’Day complained about any shoulder problem. But O’Day has yielded five earned runs over his past three outings spanning 1 2/3 innings. In those outings, O’Day let seven of the 12 batters he faced reach base. www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-orioles-darren-o-day-returning-to-baltimore-to-have-shoulder-examined-20160812-story.html"The Orioles will find out more about the severity of setup man Darren O’Day’s ailing shoulder this afternoon. Their bullpen overcame O’Day's absence for seven weeks earlier this season, but losing him again for any extended period would hurt on many levels." www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-with-o-day-shelved-again-orioles-bullpen-faces-new-challenges-20160813-story.html
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 13, 2016 8:22:55 GMT -5
The best alternative to the Kimbrel trade was signing 32-33YO setup man Darren O'Day and making him a closer: "setup man Darren O’Day was traveling back to Baltimore get his right shoulder examined Saturday. Orioles manager Buck Showalter said O’Day felt some “posterior shoulder discomfort” during his outing Thursday in Oakland, where the right-hander allowed two runs in one-third of an inning and let an inherited runner score. O’Day will miss the Orioles’ series in San Francisco, and maybe more time depending on team orthopedist Dr. Michael Jacobs' evaluation of the shoulder. “I feel pretty confident he would not have pitched here with what he told us yesterday,” Showalter said. “We have some hope that something could resolve itself by Tuesday or Wednesday.” [...] “We’re hoping it’s something that will resolve itself quickly,” Showalter said. “It’s yet to be seen whether they’ll inject him [with cortisone] or not. I don’t know if they’ll do it tomorrow. With the off-day [Monday], we probably wouldn’t have pitched him today or the weekend. It was prudent to get him there. If we get some type of news from Dr. Jacobs, we don’t want to [have to] get a guy across the country, so we thought it was smart to get Tyler out here.” Showalter said Thursday was the first time O’Day complained about any shoulder problem. But O’Day has yielded five earned runs over his past three outings spanning 1 2/3 innings. In those outings, O’Day let seven of the 12 batters he faced reach base. www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-orioles-darren-o-day-returning-to-baltimore-to-have-shoulder-examined-20160812-story.html"The Orioles will find out more about the severity of setup man Darren O’Day’s ailing shoulder this afternoon. Their bullpen overcame O’Day's absence for seven weeks earlier this season, but losing him again for any extended period would hurt on many levels." www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-with-o-day-shelved-again-orioles-bullpen-faces-new-challenges-20160813-story.htmlThe two leading choices were simply keeping Koji on as closer or hoping that O'Day could become the closer. Those wouldn't have worked out so great either. The most optimal option would have been to do the sleezy thing like the Yankees did and deal for Chapman. At this point I can't help but wonder if Kimbrel messed up his knee that day in practice or if it had been bothering him off and on all year. I'd love to have seen the lights out closer that the Braves had - we've really only seen that with Papelbon at his best and Koji during that magical run of 2013.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 13, 2016 12:13:39 GMT -5
Based on the recent problems incurred trading with the padres, you wonder if he was nicked up slightly before he came to the sox and the padres never passed that on.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 13, 2016 12:21:02 GMT -5
The best alternative to the Kimbrel trade was signing 32-33YO setup man Darren O'Day and making him a closer Yup, literally the only two choices the Red Sox had.
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Post by jmei on Aug 13, 2016 12:24:42 GMT -5
The best alternative to the Kimbrel trade was signing 32-33YO setup man Darren O'Day and making him a closer Yup, literally the only two choices the Red Sox had. You realize he's explicitly not saying that, right?
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Post by bosox81 on Aug 13, 2016 12:55:32 GMT -5
The best alternative to the Kimbrel trade was signing 32-33YO setup man Darren O'Day and making him a closer: "setup man Darren O’Day was traveling back to Baltimore get his right shoulder examined Saturday. Orioles manager Buck Showalter said O’Day felt some “posterior shoulder discomfort” during his outing Thursday in Oakland, where the right-hander allowed two runs in one-third of an inning and let an inherited runner score. O’Day will miss the Orioles’ series in San Francisco, and maybe more time depending on team orthopedist Dr. Michael Jacobs' evaluation of the shoulder. “I feel pretty confident he would not have pitched here with what he told us yesterday,” Showalter said. “We have some hope that something could resolve itself by Tuesday or Wednesday.” [...] “We’re hoping it’s something that will resolve itself quickly,” Showalter said. “It’s yet to be seen whether they’ll inject him [with cortisone] or not. I don’t know if they’ll do it tomorrow. With the off-day [Monday], we probably wouldn’t have pitched him today or the weekend. It was prudent to get him there. If we get some type of news from Dr. Jacobs, we don’t want to [have to] get a guy across the country, so we thought it was smart to get Tyler out here.” Showalter said Thursday was the first time O’Day complained about any shoulder problem. But O’Day has yielded five earned runs over his past three outings spanning 1 2/3 innings. In those outings, O’Day let seven of the 12 batters he faced reach base. www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-orioles-darren-o-day-returning-to-baltimore-to-have-shoulder-examined-20160812-story.html"The Orioles will find out more about the severity of setup man Darren O’Day’s ailing shoulder this afternoon. Their bullpen overcame O’Day's absence for seven weeks earlier this season, but losing him again for any extended period would hurt on many levels." www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/bal-with-o-day-shelved-again-orioles-bullpen-faces-new-challenges-20160813-story.htmlI see you're the one person who liked the post above about locking this thread and yet as soon as there's news about O'Day's injury you couldn't resist bringing the thread back up.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 13, 2016 13:09:25 GMT -5
Yup, literally the only two choices the Red Sox had. You realize he's explicitly not saying that, right? ...no? In any case, I don't think O'Day is at all relevant here.
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Post by jmei on Aug 13, 2016 13:39:46 GMT -5
You realize he's explicitly not saying that, right? ...no? In any case, I don't think O'Day is at all relevant here. He was one of the prominent alternatives to trading for Kimbrel, and he hasn't performed well this year. It's not going to change anyone's mind at this point, but it's at least mildly relevant.
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