SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Nov 18, 2015 17:44:04 GMT -5
Hanley to the Indians was a crappy title.
Anyway, I think if Carrasco or Salazar gets traded, Cleveland will need a starter.
I think JBJ + Kelly/Miley would be a good base here.
Most likely Salazar is a more realistic target, but if they prefer his youth to Carrasco then they can be my guest.
|
|
|
|
Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 18, 2015 18:04:26 GMT -5
I think it'd take something like below, just because I don't think JBJ is the OF they are looking for, and the Red Sox are going to have to stretch to avoid their real tops guys (Bogaerts, Betts, Erod, Owens, Swihart, Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, Espinoza)
GULP:
Danny Salazar for: JBJ, Joe Kelly, Devers and Matt Barnes
|
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 18, 2015 18:10:12 GMT -5
Hanley to the Indians was a crappy title.Anyway, I think if Carrasco or Salazar gets traded, Cleveland will need a starter. I think JBJ + Kelly/Miley would be a good base here. Most likely Salazar is a more realistic target, but if they prefer his youth to Carrasco then they can be my guest. Some of your opinions are pretty crappy nomar. We need another thread for something already started? |
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Nov 18, 2015 18:20:50 GMT -5
I think it'd take something like below, just because I don't think JBJ is the OF they are looking for, and the Red Sox are going to have to stretch to avoid their real tops guys (Bogaerts, Betts, Erod, Owens, Swihart, Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, Espinoza) GULP: Danny Salazar for: JBJ, Joe Kelly, Devers and Matt Barnes If they don't value JBJ as high as other teams, no reason to include him. For the trade you just listed, I would swap Castillo with JBJ and probably pull the trigger. I love Devers, but that is something I could live with. |
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Nov 18, 2015 18:21:48 GMT -5
Hanley to the Indians was a crappy title.Anyway, I think if Carrasco or Salazar gets traded, Cleveland will need a starter. I think JBJ + Kelly/Miley would be a good base here. Most likely Salazar is a more realistic target, but if they prefer his youth to Carrasco then they can be my guest. Some of your opinions are pretty crappy nomar. We need another thread for something already started? Hahaha sorry Steve! I just meant that Hanley isn't necessarily going to be involved in every CLE trade  |
|
|
|
Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 18, 2015 18:25:01 GMT -5
I think it'd take something like below, just because I don't think JBJ is the OF they are looking for, and the Red Sox are going to have to stretch to avoid their real tops guys (Bogaerts, Betts, Erod, Owens, Swihart, Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, Espinoza) GULP: Danny Salazar for: JBJ, Joe Kelly, Devers and Matt Barnes If they don't value JBJ as high as other teams, no reason to include him. For the trade you just listed, I would swap Castillo with JBJ and probably pull the trigger. I love Devers, but that is something I could live with. I think they value JBJ, just maybe not as highly as a guy who gives you a little more certainty offensively. And they'd probably value JBJ much higher than Castillo. |
|
steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
|
Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 18, 2015 18:32:42 GMT -5
Some of your opinions are pretty crappy nomar. We need another thread for something already started? Hahaha sorry Steve! I just meant that Hanley isn't necessarily going to be involved in every CLE trade OK......nomar......sorry about getting pissed. There are better ways of saying things. |
|
|
|
Post by mandelbro on Nov 18, 2015 19:21:58 GMT -5
I think it'd take something like below, just because I don't think JBJ is the OF they are looking for, and the Red Sox are going to have to stretch to avoid their real tops guys (Bogaerts, Betts, Erod, Owens, Swihart, Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, Espinoza) GULP: Danny Salazar for: JBJ, Joe Kelly, Devers and Matt Barnes What is the gulp for? You're trading a 26 year old CF who steamer projects to give you .730ish with GG defense, and who is a Boras client. That hurts. You're trading a 5th starter with bullpen potential, a third baseman in A who might not stick at third base, and AAAA bullpen prospect. You're getting 4 years of a staff ace talent who is only 26, whose peripherals were outstanding. There's a lot of reason to think Salazar would be better in the AL East than names like Cueto or Zimmerman, and possibly even Price. Why would you pay 7 years and $210 million for a declining Price, if you could just do this, get an ascendant Salazar, and keep the money? If the next 4 years of Salazar and Price are equal: Are 4 more years of Bradley, plus Devers, plus the last 3 years of Price's deal worth anything close to $210 mil? |
|
|
|
Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 18, 2015 20:31:57 GMT -5
I think it'd take something like below, just because I don't think JBJ is the OF they are looking for, and the Red Sox are going to have to stretch to avoid their real tops guys (Bogaerts, Betts, Erod, Owens, Swihart, Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, Espinoza) GULP: Danny Salazar for: JBJ, Joe Kelly, Devers and Matt Barnes What is the gulp for? You're trading a 26 year old CF who steamer projects to give you .730ish with GG defense, and who is a Boras client. That hurts. You're trading a 5th starter with bullpen potential, a third baseman in A who might not stick at third base, and AAAA bullpen prospect. You're getting 4 years of a staff ace talent who is only 26, whose peripherals were outstanding. There's a lot of reason to think Salazar would be better in the AL East than names like Cueto or Zimmerman, and possibly even Price. Why would you pay 7 years and $210 million for a declining Price, if you could just do this, get an ascendant Salazar, and keep the money? If the next 4 years of Salazar and Price are equal: Are 4 more years of Bradley, plus Devers, plus the last 3 years of Price's deal worth anything close to $210 mil? Lol dude I'm the one who threw out the trade. I would do it in a heartbeat, thought honestly it probably doesn't get it done. The GULP is because people on this forum view those four guys as being worth north of 1 billion dollars in estimated surplus value. The very act of dealing them would seemingly cause earth's rotation to screech to a halt, leaving the still-traveling-at-1100mph atmosphere to scour all signs of life off the surface of the planet like a brillo pad against a dirty dinner plate. |
|
|
|
Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 18, 2015 20:32:35 GMT -5
What is the gulp for? You're trading a 26 year old CF who steamer projects to give you .730ish with GG defense, and who is a Boras client. That hurts. You're trading a 5th starter with bullpen potential, a third baseman in A who might not stick at third base, and AAAA bullpen prospect. You're getting 4 years of a staff ace talent who is only 26, whose peripherals were outstanding. There's a lot of reason to think Salazar would be better in the AL East than names like Cueto or Zimmerman, and possibly even Price. Why would you pay 7 years and $210 million for a declining Price, if you could just do this, get an ascendant Salazar, and keep the money? If the next 4 years of Salazar and Price are equal: Are 4 more years of Bradley, plus Devers, plus the last 3 years of Price's deal worth anything close to $210 mil? I can see the argument for one guy getting better while the other 'will be' declining at some point during his next contract. Salazaar is showing similar performance to a young Price but a year behind. At this point the Indians likely hope Salazaar turns into the next Price. In 2015 Salazaar was 33rd in FIP and 23rd in xFIP among qualifiers so he's good but not quite on Price's level of 8th in FIP and 16th in xFIP. Also Price has proven to be a workhorse, which Salazaar has yet to do. Salazaar may become an Ace, but so far he's shown to be a #2 with potential while Price is clearly an Ace (however you define it). Due to the uncertainty, I'd go with Price given Boston's financial muscle. (always easier when I'm not signing the check) |
|
|
|
Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 18, 2015 22:01:44 GMT -5
What is the gulp for? You're trading a 26 year old CF who steamer projects to give you .730ish with GG defense, and who is a Boras client. That hurts. You're trading a 5th starter with bullpen potential, a third baseman in A who might not stick at third base, and AAAA bullpen prospect. You're getting 4 years of a staff ace talent who is only 26, whose peripherals were outstanding. There's a lot of reason to think Salazar would be better in the AL East than names like Cueto or Zimmerman, and possibly even Price. Why would you pay 7 years and $210 million for a declining Price, if you could just do this, get an ascendant Salazar, and keep the money? If the next 4 years of Salazar and Price are equal: Are 4 more years of Bradley, plus Devers, plus the last 3 years of Price's deal worth anything close to $210 mil? I can see the argument for one guy getting better while the other 'will be' declining at some point during his next contract. Salazaar is showing similar performance to a young Price but a year behind. At this point the Indians likely hope Salazaar turns into the next Price. In 2015 Salazaar was 33rd in FIP and 23rd in xFIP among qualifiers so he's good but not quite on Price's level of 8th in FIP and 16th in xFIP. Also Price has proven to be a workhorse, which Salazaar has yet to do. Salazaar may become an Ace, but so far he's shown to be a #2 with potential while Price is clearly an Ace (however you define it). Due to the uncertainty, I'd go with Price given Boston's financial muscle. (always easier when I'm not signing the check) Well... the interesting thing is that a Salazar acquisition doesn't *really* effect the pursuit of Price. Say they lose something like Devers, JBJ, Kopech in a Salazar trade. And you sign David Price. Price, Salazar, Buch, Porcello, Erod, Miley, Kelly... you can go spin Buch or Miley for a decent OF-er potentially, and move Kelly to the pen as spot starting depth, and your rotation looks pretty good for the next 5 years fronted by Price, Salazar and Erod. |
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Nov 19, 2015 0:11:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd want the Sox giving up that much for Salazar (who I really like, btw), in that Devers is the type of potential 3/4 hitter they sorely need. That said, JBJ/Miley/Johnson/Chavis or similar I could stomach. Tbh, I'm not sure how much I'd give up, but I do think Salazar has bigtime potential, and obtaining him for an equivalent salary like Miley's would allow them to sign Price, and have a tremendous rotation, provided, yeah, they could swing getting another OF at semi-reasonable cost.
|
|
|
|
Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 19, 2015 9:34:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd want the Sox giving up that much for Salazar (who I really like, btw), in that Devers is the type of potential 3/4 hitter they sorely need. That said, JBJ/Miley/Johnson/Chavis or similar I could stomach. Tbh, I'm not sure how much I'd give up, but I do think Salazar has bigtime potential, and obtaining him for an equivalent salary like Miley's would allow them to sign Price, and have a tremendous rotation, provided, yeah, they could swing getting another OF at semi-reasonable cost. As offensively starved as Cleveland is, I would think they would want a more ML ready bat. That said, I'm not sure who they have in their high minors who could replicate Devers & may be a couple of years ahead of him.....Not too many teams would be willing to give up relatively cheap offense, meaning some teams are overloaded with pitching, but not too many teams are overloaded with offense. Maybe they take a future middle of the order Devers +. If they would, I'd do it (but it would sting). |
|
|
|
Post by mandelbro on Nov 19, 2015 10:16:07 GMT -5
I'm not sure I'd want the Sox giving up that much for Salazar (who I really like, btw), in that Devers is the type of potential 3/4 hitter they sorely need. That said, JBJ/Miley/Johnson/Chavis or similar I could stomach. Tbh, I'm not sure how much I'd give up, but I do think Salazar has bigtime potential, and obtaining him for an equivalent salary like Miley's would allow them to sign Price, and have a tremendous rotation, provided, yeah, they could swing getting another OF at semi-reasonable cost. As offensively starved as Cleveland is, I would think they would want a more ML ready bat. That said, I'm not sure who they have in their high minors who could replicate Devers & may be a couple of years ahead of him.....Not too many teams would be willing to give up relatively cheap offense, meaning some teams are overloaded with pitching, but not too many teams are overloaded with offense. Maybe they take a future middle of the order Devers +. If they would, I'd do it (but it would sting). Yeah, the point of intentionally weakening what might be the best rotation in the sport would be to better supplement that rotation. I have no doubt that they'd want MLB bats. I don't think JBJ is the bat that gets it done but I'd go there. Hell, you can pocket the "pitcher money" if you traded for Salazar and splurge on the J-Hey kid. Betts in CF, Heyward in the Fenway RF, Castillo in LF with Benintendi and Moncada in the wings is a good OF and we'd have a burgeoning young ace at hand. I think the concerns about Salazar's durability (whereas Price is a horse) are valid. But I also think now is the time to strike for Salazar. He's got stuff that is more impressive than the results. 8th-best SIERA in the AL last season. Behind Sale, Archer, Price, Keuchel, Carrasco, Kluber, and Hernandez. He's an electric player and I'd want him bad if I were DD. I suspect Cleveland wouldn't trade him for anything we'd offer though. Their best match would be young pitching for older and more expensive hitting. |
|
|
|
Post by jiant2520 on Nov 19, 2015 15:30:17 GMT -5
I said this in an earlier thread... I really don't think we match up well with Cleveland for a trade. We obviously would love to have Carrasco or Salazar as our #2 pitcher, however to make a trade the other team needs something back they need. In this case Cleveland needs major league hitting. Who can we offer? Betts/Bogaerts/Ortiz are not moving, at least in those deals. Who then? Ramirez? Nope. We would need to get a third team like Cin with Frazier or Col with Gonzalez involved, in my opinion. Why would Cleveland create a hole in the top three of their rotation unless they are getiing a player back who can hit in the middle of their lineup?
|
|
|
|
Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 19, 2015 16:13:20 GMT -5
I said this in an earlier thread... I really don't think we match up well with Cleveland for a trade. We obviously would love to have Carrasco or Salazar as our #2 pitcher, however to make a trade the other team needs something back they need. In this case Cleveland needs major league hitting. Who can we offer? Betts/Bogaerts/Ortiz are not moving, at least in those deals. Who then? Ramirez? Nope. We would need to get a third team like Cin with Frazier or Col with Gonzalez involved, in my opinion. Why would Cleveland create a hole in the top three of their rotation unless they are getiing a player back who can hit in the middle of their lineup? Yeah, there's really not a match for a heads up trade. Most likely you'd see DD architect a 3-team deal in which Sox prospects go to CLE, One of Buch/Kelly/Miley (maybe a prospect too) go to a third team dealing an established offensive OF-er, and then that established OF-er going to CLE, and a Cleveland starter coming back to Boston. |
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Nov 19, 2015 16:33:08 GMT -5
Eh, the Indians do need to add a center fielder (the Indians' SB Nation site had a poll in which CF was voted as the most important need), and if there's one thing the Red Sox are flush with at the major league level, it's center fielders. They also need a DH-- their DH situation is one of the weakest positions in the AL, and they don't really have a third baseman, either. Bradley and a subsidized Hanley or Pablo would seem to be of interest if they want MLB-ready pieces, and there's also a chance that, at least in part because of the Brantley injury, they decide to go in more of a rebuilding direction and look for low-minors prospects. |
|
|
|
Post by jiant2520 on Nov 19, 2015 17:54:11 GMT -5
Eh, the Indians do need to add a center fielder (the Indians' SB Nation site had a poll in which CF was voted as the most important need), and if there's one thing the Red Sox are flush with at the major league level, it's center fielders. They also need a DH-- their DH situation is one of the weakest positions in the AL, and they don't really have a third baseman, either. Bradley and a subsidized Hanley or Pablo would seem to be of interest if they want MLB-ready pieces, and there's also a chance that, at least in part because of the Brantley injury, they decide to go in more of a rebuilding direction and look for low-minors prospects. I would be happy if your right, but I don't see it. I just don't see them parting with 5 years of control for two solid #2 pitchers with #1 potential while taking on Ramirez and Sandoval. These two, aside from their contracts, don't have the best reputations either. I'm not 100% sure we could offer Ramirez to Cleveland for free if they would help us out..... |
|
|
|
Post by jiant2520 on Nov 19, 2015 17:58:54 GMT -5
Basically, if we said here is Ramirez contract, take him with no return. I don't see them taking on that contract. So basically, you're saying Bradley and money (25-35% of Ramirez contract?) for Salazar? No way that happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by jmei on Nov 19, 2015 18:01:17 GMT -5
I think if you offered Bradley and Hanley for $10m a year (so the Red Sox would eat $36m on the $66m due to him over the next three years), that gets the conversation started.
|
|
|
|
Post by jiant2520 on Nov 19, 2015 18:10:32 GMT -5
Jmei, I wish you could make that deal. I'd take it on our end for sure!!
I see Ramirez as a lot tougher trade. His value is at an all time low. From May until now he was horrible. To think we can flip him for a potential ace is, at least in my mind, a dream.
I hope it happens, but I think Ramirez for a decent reliever is more likely.
Don't you think Salazar to Cin for Frazier at 6 mil a year for the next two years is better? Obviously they would get more than just Frazier too. Why trade with the Sox? Frazier is way more valuable than Ramirez.
|
|
|
|
Post by pokeyreesespieces on Nov 19, 2015 18:35:54 GMT -5
I think if you offered Bradley and Hanley for $10m a year (so the Red Sox would eat $36m on the $66m due to him over the next three years), that gets the conversation started. The next line of that convo is "keep Hanley and give us many more of those JBJ type players" |
|
|
|
Post by sox fan in nc on Nov 20, 2015 10:22:52 GMT -5
I think if you offered Bradley and Hanley for $10m a year (so the Red Sox would eat $36m on the $66m due to him over the next three years), that gets the conversation started. I know Hanley's value is undeniably low these days. IMO he has more upside than Sandoval. If they would take Pablo @ 50% + JBJ + Johnson, I'd do it. I think Marrero/Holt could handle 3rd for a year & 1/2 (with not a whole lot of difference from Sandoval) until Moncada or Devers comes up. We'd have to sign 2 OF. With the money saved from Price & Pablo, sign Heyward/Gordon + Parra/Young. |
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 20, 2015 10:40:57 GMT -5
I like Salazar but wow on people thinking he will be equal or better then Price over next 4 years. Your looking at a guy who just had his first complete season and pitched 185 innings. He has a long way to go to get to Prices level.
I must be crazy but I see Bradley's value as very close to Salazar's. I find it funny how you all are projecting Salazar and not Bradley. If Cleveland doesn't want Bradley you could flip him to another team for players Cleveland does want.
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,825
Member is Online
|
Post by nomar on Nov 20, 2015 10:49:56 GMT -5
Price will also fall a lot over the next 4 years.
Now that we know Ortiz is retiring after this season, I'm not sure I want to cut bait on Hanley. I don't think there's a good DH situation in 17 if we do. Encarnacion will be a free agent, and I love him, but he'll be 34 too by 2017.
|
|
|
