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Chapman to the Yankees
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 28, 2015 23:02:37 GMT -5
... However, on a non-baseball level, f*** this trade and the Yankees!!! What Chapman did (is accused of, whatever) is reprehensible, and I'd be ashamed if the Red Sox took advantage of that situation as a way to get a better reliever for a lower cost. The Yankees are directly, knowingly benefiting from the pain and suffering of Chapman's victim. There's really no other way of putting it. I have to stop; I really can't go on without violating the profanity rules of this forum or making every other word a first letter and a string of asterisks. There are a lot of words that suggest that without crossing the line. Predatory comes to mind. One of the moral hazards, one that isn't usually mentioned in the context of the financial sector, is the influence they have on those who live in the city, those who share the space with them and get to know them either casually at parties, in business meetings, at events, and so on. I think the Machiavellian attitude so prevalent among the takers, probably seeps into the pores of those who spend a lot of time catering to, or soliciting advice from them. It may very well have a corrosive effect on their world view. Cashman's not a bad guy, and I've found at least a few things to admire about him. This isn't one of them, and it may reflect that distorted picture, one that assigns little real value to what others think. Again, baseball isn't a soap opera. But this does tell us a bit about the Yankee organization and how they perceive the world. The question is whether that perception jives with modern reality. The players union may very well take a hard line on a penalty to Chapman. I'd suggest they think that one over before they do that. We had the woman's shelter here in our town pushed out of its home by the county commissioners and local judges - all male - who wanted the building. They didn't ask, either, they just presented it as a done deal. The very next election, one of those commissioners got his head handed to him, 70% to 30%, a 2"x4" upside the collective head of those guys, men who were used to winning their elections handily. This isn't 1950.
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Post by southernredsoxality on Dec 28, 2015 23:46:40 GMT -5
You guys really need to get a grip, it's innocent until proven guilty remember? There wasn't even enough evidence to arrest him which says a lot in this type of cases. Great trade for the hankees unfortunately.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Dec 29, 2015 1:30:33 GMT -5
Not sure this is an overpay for 1 year of a reliever anyway.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 29, 2015 1:45:04 GMT -5
That Kimbrel haul is about to feel much worse. When I first heard it on TV I jumped out of my chair yelling "that's too much". My wife left the room. That was then. After considerable research and reflection, I don't feel that way very much. Any more. This is now. A bullpen of Kimbrel, Koji, Taz. Smith, Ross, Varvaro/Layne or Escobar, Wright is a match for the mfy or Royals. Chapman, even at a discount, embroils the team in politics and ethical issues of every type, potentially pollutes the clubhoise, negatively influences more than 20 young Red Sox with bright futures, and divides an already argumentative fan base and media. No thanks. Facts: the police were called in, the wife was abused, a gun was fired. This is not like a PED or HGH issue. This, if charges are pressed, is a criminal case. No thanks. Kimbrel and Koji, Smith and Taz. Deep depth. Great Bullpen. Thanks Manny M, J. Guerra, C. Asuaje, Logan A. Live long and prosper. I hope to see you at Petco, with D. Orsillo, or at least in ST in AZ. Buena suerte.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 29, 2015 1:55:46 GMT -5
You guys really need to get a grip, it's innocent until proven guilty remember? There wasn't even enough evidence to arrest him which says a lot in this type of cases. Great trade for the hankees unfortunately. In these types of cases, despite evidence of abuse and a gun being fired, charges are often dropped by the spouse. Often that spouse is abused again. Litigation not pursued in a criminal ( or civil) case is not necessarily the same as innocence, real or presumptive. Kimbrel, Koji, Taz and Smith will get the job done.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Dec 29, 2015 2:06:13 GMT -5
Not sure this is an overpay for 1 year of a reliever anyway. It wasn't some random reliever though. The only pice in the trade that is intriguing is Rookie Davis, who might become some random reliever some day. Let's make no mistake about it this was a heist for the Yankees. They got perhaps the best reliever in baseball when they were already stacked in the back end. Maybe some will say it redundant but we shall see. I think we should be able to separate the human level from the baseball level from this discussions. Even if we find what he did/allegedly did deplorable.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 29, 2015 2:30:15 GMT -5
I get what you're saying but as good as he is do you really want a lowlife like that on your team? It's hard to root for a guy like that - even on your own team. I can easily accept rooting for a guy that has warts like Boggs, but a violent guy like Chapman who uses that violence against women - it's just really hard to root for. And yet, incredibly, the Dallas Cowboys still manage to sell out that huge stadium of theirs.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 29, 2015 2:36:22 GMT -5
Well, I do wonder whether any of the "you have to pay EXTRA to get ELITE talent" people have something new to say after the Yankees got Chapman for less than a bag of baseballs (according to the Deepjohn School of Prospect Valuation).
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Post by deepjohn on Dec 29, 2015 3:01:52 GMT -5
Not sure this is an overpay for 1 year of a reliever anyway. It wasn't some random reliever though. The only pice in the trade that is intriguing is Rookie Davis, who might become some random reliever some day. Let's make no mistake about it this was a heist for the Yankees. They got perhaps the best reliever in baseball when they were already stacked in the back end. Maybe some will say it redundant but we shall see. I think we should be able to separate the human level from the baseball level from this discussions. Even if we find what he did/allegedly did deplorable. Can you please break this trade down for me? I guess the Yankees got about 2.5 present wins in Chapman, assuming he plays the whole season. Rookie Davis was the Yankees' #6 prospect (per Baseball America) (Norris notes in his scouting report over at BA that alterations to his delivery led to a breakout of sorts in 2015). What is he worth in future wins? Eric Jagielo was in the Yankees' top 15 prospects (Baseball America per a tweet from John Manuel) (A knee injury that required arthroscopic surgery shortened his 2015 season, but when he was healthy, he batted .284/.347/.495 with nine homers in 58 games/248 plate appearances at the Double-A level. MLB.com rated him as the No. 7 third-base prospect in the game). What is he worth in future wins? Then you've got Renda, (Fangraphs says, good approach, has hit everywhere, has advanced bat control, gets on base but hasn’t played short and has little power), and Cotham, an MLB bullpen pitcher this past year. By comparison, before the deal was called off, the Reds were said to be trading Chapman to the Dodgers for Peraza and a second prospect.
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Post by deepjohn on Dec 29, 2015 3:40:03 GMT -5
Well, I do wonder whether any of the "you have to pay EXTRA to get ELITE talent" people have something new to say after the Yankees got Chapman for less than a bag of baseballs (according to the Deepjohn School of Prospect Valuation). Over in the other thread, I'm asking because I'm seeking to understand. But a quick and dirty says the Red Sox might have given up 15 future wins for 7.5 present wins from Kimbrel, while the Yankees might have given up 5 future wins for 2.5 present wins. (But I could be missing something that the veteran prospect watchers here are more keenly in tune with.) There also seems to be some likelihood that the Yankees risked giving up 15 future wins, if Davis becomes a Miley-like starter in light of what BA called something of a breakout season for him in 2015.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 29, 2015 3:53:20 GMT -5
It is a good pickup for the Yankees, but I really like what DD has done with our bullpen and have all the confidence that ours will perform as well as the Yankees. Coupled with the Price signing and continued improvement from out starters, I am not worried at all about the Yankees.
As a matter of fact, I fart in their general direction.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 29, 2015 5:52:21 GMT -5
Well, I do wonder whether any of the "you have to pay EXTRA to get ELITE talent" people have something new to say after the Yankees got Chapman for less than a bag of baseballs (according to the Deepjohn School of Prospect Valuation). Chapman and Kimbrel are not equal. Chapman's current off the field issues clearly affected his market, which is why the Dodgers trade fell apart.
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Post by akiva on Dec 29, 2015 5:55:30 GMT -5
Well, I do wonder whether any of the "you have to pay EXTRA to get ELITE talent" people have something new to say after the Yankees got Chapman for less than a bag of baseballs (according to the Deepjohn School of Prospect Valuation). So what? The Reds wanted a king's ransom for Chapman until the details of his domestic abuse became known. You can't exactly compare the two, even if it first your agenda.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 29, 2015 6:16:55 GMT -5
...As much as I hate the Kimbrel trade it's preferable to rooting for a team that sees an instance of domestic violence as a buy-low opportunity. No surprises here. It's New York and they fill many of those high-priced seats with the guys and gals highlighted in Michael Lewis' The Big Short. Many of them have made a good living off of violence - financial violence and other flavors also. I don't think you'll hear too many Yankee fans complaining. Gut-check for Manfred. Let's see if he has the nuts for this game. The biggest of the big-market teams just threw the gauntlet down, daring him to take away their shiny new toy. What does the fact that New York has Wall Street have to do with this trade? As an aside, many/most of the the people featured in the Lewis novel who shorted the market were Wall Street outsiders and many were based in places like Berkley, CA and San Jose, CA. They certainly are not portrayed as bad people. Additionally the home loans they bet against were made by lenders based in places like California, Florida, and Washington State (the lender in Washington was spotlighted in particular). So the idea that the New York Yankees' moral compass is defective is based on the location of that franchise seems off.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Dec 29, 2015 9:18:02 GMT -5
Chapman.Chapman, Chapman. I'm just waiting for the wake up call when he tries to sneak his inside heat past Mookie!
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 29, 2015 9:29:31 GMT -5
Unless you think Chapman should be banned from baseball, then you can't really get all over the Yankees for trading for him. If the guy has a right to work, then teams have the right to employ him. The guy sounds like a scum bag but so are a lot of these guys that we root for across sports.
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Post by joshv02 on Dec 29, 2015 10:34:54 GMT -5
I don't know what "right" means there. Are you arguing against the mythical person who thinks the trade should be disallowed by some higher power?
This is an issue of taste not rights.
You have a "right" to be a gigantic prick. I chose not to like that behavior. I also choose to not want to root for Chapman.
I also have no obligation to be consistent - I can root for the 04 Sox and forget who their shortstop was while also hoping that this player is not on my favorite team. I can like chocolate ice cream on Tuesday but prefer vanilla tomorrow. There is no requirement of consistency in taste.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Dec 29, 2015 11:21:21 GMT -5
Unless you think Chapman should be banned from baseball, then you can't really get all over the Yankees for trading for him. If the guy has a right to work, then teams have the right to employ him. The guy sounds like a scum bag but so are a lot of these guys that we root for across sports. Sure I can. If I see someone yelling racial slurs on the street, I can say that he's despicable without wanting him jailed. And I can certainly think the Yankees are reprehensible for seeing a market opportunity to pick up a cheap asset because that asset choked his girlfriend and shot up his garage to intimidate her (yeah, allegedly). It's more than just employing him; they are actually profiting off his behavior.
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Post by SALNotes on Dec 29, 2015 11:55:17 GMT -5
This is a nice get for the Yanks, scary backend of the pen now but if you're the Reds and this was the best offer out there, hang onto him let him start the yr with you serve whatever susp there is to serve and trade him to a contender at the deadline assuming no more shenanigans they would have gotten much more he's an impact arm who could have pushed a team over the top. Jeez guys they keep giving your talent away I wasn't impressed with the Frazier return either
maybe we should be in on Bruce I'm sure he could be had really cheap
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 29, 2015 12:29:02 GMT -5
This is a nice get for the Yanks, scary backend of the pen now but if you're the Reds and this was the best offer out there, hang onto him let him start the yr with you serve whatever susp there is to serve and trade him to a contender at the deadline assuming no more shenanigans they would have gotten much more he's an impact arm who could have pushed a team over the top. Jeez guys they keep giving your talent away I wasn't impressed with the Frazier return either maybe we should be in on Bruce I'm sure he could be had really cheap Fellow NC sox fan.....I agree with you on the trade. How would these 4 guys relate to our system, meaning who would line up with our prospects to theirs. Are they their next 4 prospects after Judge & Bird ect. I'm not sure they have the 25 man to compete this year. I know we have question marks, as do most clubs, I just feel they have more question marks. Arod, Beltran, Tex, all had good years, If they all have good years again, they may have a shot.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Dec 29, 2015 12:50:48 GMT -5
This is a nice get for the Yanks, scary backend of the pen now but if you're the Reds and this was the best offer out there, hang onto him let him start the yr with you serve whatever susp there is to serve and trade him to a contender at the deadline assuming no more shenanigans they would have gotten much more he's an impact arm who could have pushed a team over the top. Jeez guys they keep giving your talent away I wasn't impressed with the Frazier return either maybe we should be in on Bruce I'm sure he could be had really cheap Fellow NC sox fan.....I agree with you on the trade. How would these 4 guys relate to our system, meaning who would line up with our prospects to theirs. Are they their next 4 prospects after Judge & Bird ect. I'm not sure they have the 25 man to compete this year. I know we have question marks, as do most clubs, I just feel they have more question marks. Arod, Beltran, Tex, all had good years, If they all have good years again, they may have a shot. And because they kept Bird, Judge, Severino, MFY have more pieces to move for someone at the deadline. I feel like the Sox are a little handcuffed in this in that they'll have to trade out of ML depth, SP depth, or someone key to future plans (top 4+3) to fill a hole this season. MAYBE Marerro can bring some value, but likely not. That's the harshest consequence of the Kimbrel trade for me.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 29, 2015 13:06:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure the MFY have MORE pieces to move at the deadline, maybe Miller. The older guys are basically non tradeable. They are putting their faith in Bird, Judge, Mateo to all succeed. Severino is already there. The sox core is much, much younger & our top 4 prospects line up with their top 4. IMO, Hanley & Pablo may be the key to our season. It may be tough to overcome if they both s*** the bed. The Yankees can probably say the same thing about a few of their guys.
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Post by deepjohn on Dec 29, 2015 13:10:18 GMT -5
This is a nice get for the Yanks, scary backend of the pen now but if you're the Reds and this was the best offer out there, hang onto him let him start the yr with you serve whatever susp there is to serve and trade him to a contender at the deadline assuming no more shenanigans they would have gotten much more he's an impact arm who could have pushed a team over the top. Jeez guys they keep giving your talent away I wasn't impressed with the Frazier return either maybe we should be in on Bruce I'm sure he could be had really cheap Fellow NC sox fan.....I agree with you on the trade. How would these 4 guys relate to our system, meaning who would line up with our prospects to theirs. Are they their next 4 prospects after Judge & Bird ect. I'm not sure they have the 25 man to compete this year. I know we have question marks, as do most clubs, I just feel they have more question marks. Arod, Beltran, Tex, all had good years, If they all have good years again, they may have a shot. From what I can see (posted above), Rookie Davis rose in 2015 from less than top 50 (Cameron) now to #6 (BA) among Yankees' prospects, and is a 6' 5"/235 lbs power pitcher with a mid-nineties fastball and recently much improved command. Jocketty is quoted as saying Davis could be a starter soon. Closest to but not as advanced as Brian Johnson. Could be a high ceiling if he can avoid the bust rate for a pitcher. Jagiello was a strong arm/below average glove 3B and hitting with a 60 power tool, until he was injured. Closest to but not as advanced as Sam Travis. Could be a high ceiling if he can stay healthy. Jocketty is quoted as saying Renda/Cotham are ready to be used in utility/bullpen roles, but they were not ranked in the Yankees' top 30. Decent floor, not much ceiling.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 29, 2015 13:22:13 GMT -5
The way this probably went down (Chapman) is that most of the ML teams simply told Cincy that they weren't interested in trading for him, period. Then NY simply offered their "bag of baseballs" thinking they would be turned down. I'm not sure Boston would have offered a similar deal to NY's since they are very wary of clubhouse culture, PR, ect. Kimbrel, Price & co fit in nicely with Boston. Even Miley was rough around the edges, now he's gone. Do we think Cinc came to Boston after the NY offer to try to "up" the deal?
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Post by ryantoworkman on Dec 29, 2015 13:33:04 GMT -5
Fellow NC sox fan.....I agree with you on the trade. How would these 4 guys relate to our system, meaning who would line up with our prospects to theirs. Are they their next 4 prospects after Judge & Bird ect. I'm not sure they have the 25 man to compete this year. I know we have question marks, as do most clubs, I just feel they have more question marks. Arod, Beltran, Tex, all had good years, If they all have good years again, they may have a shot. And because they kept Bird, Judge, Severino, MFY have more pieces to move for someone at the deadline. I feel like the Sox are a little handcuffed in this in that they'll have to trade out of ML depth, SP depth, or someone key to future plans (top 4+3) to fill a hole this season. MAYBE Marerro can bring some value, but likely not. That's the harshest consequence of the Kimbrel trade for me. What hole is not already covered 3 deep? 9 starters and 4 deep at every position says the likely won't be shopping in 2016. More likely they are selling a pitcher (Buchholz) at the deadline
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