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Chapman to the Yankees
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 29, 2015 13:34:06 GMT -5
...What does the fact that New York has Wall Street have to do with this trade? As an aside, many/most of the the people featured in the Lewis novel who shorted the market were Wall Street outsiders and many were based in places like Berkley, CA and San Jose, CA. They certainly are not portrayed as bad people. Additionally the home loans they bet against were made by lenders based in places like California, Florida, and Washington State (the lender in Washington was spotlighted in particular). So the idea that the New York Yankees' moral compass is defective is based on the location of that franchise seems off. Man, you must have gotten a different narrative than I did from Lewis' story, or the movie. The guys who blew it up were outsiders allright, and the people they were up against were the Wall Street suits who didn't have a clue outside of the fact that they were cleaning up. Those same jokers were more than eager to place those short bets, convinced that they were getting over on those outsiders. The firestorm of nationwide demand for that loan trash was fueled by the commissions and bonuses they were pocketing. They had mortgage brokers signing up the walking dead for those loans everywhere, but thanks to the securitization of those loans, those brokers had no stake in the outcome anywhere. The machine they built, the one to feed them a stream of money, collapsed like the house of cards it was. The movie is all about locating that moral compass, with Steve Carrell taking on the role of Everyman, walking through a landscape largely devoid of compassion for the people who will get screwed by what's coming down. That's even as the "capitalists" get saved from themselves by the rest of us. Moral hazard indeed. I think I've been restrained in my analysis. Let's hear what Michael Lewis has to say about it: Now that's harsh. Lewis' entire piece is worth the read, if only for the hilarious take on the movies and his advice to Billy Beane. Look, I can't begin to claim that I know how the Yankee FO spends their free time. But it's foolish to think that they could swim in that ocean without absorbing some of that hubris. You are what you eat.
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 29, 2015 13:38:58 GMT -5
Look, I can't begin to claim that I know how the Yankee FO spends their free time. But it's foolish to think that they could swim in that ocean without absorbing some of that hubris. I don't know of anyone in the Yankees FO having been nearly as involved in the world of finance as John Henry, so what was that saying about the glass house and the stones?
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Post by jmei on Dec 29, 2015 13:43:34 GMT -5
And because they kept Bird, Judge, Severino, MFY have more pieces to move for someone at the deadline. I feel like the Sox are a little handcuffed in this in that they'll have to trade out of ML depth, SP depth, or someone key to future plans (top 4+3) to fill a hole this season. MAYBE Marerro can bring some value, but likely not. That's the harshest consequence of the Kimbrel trade for me. What hole is not already covered 3 deep? 9 starters and 4 deep at every position says the likely won't be shopping in 2016. More likely they are selling a pitcher (Buchholz) at the deadline There's a big difference between having names on the depth chart and having productive names on the depth chart. Guys like Travis Shaw are no guarantee to be productive full-ins. I could see them needing help at OF, 1B and 3B even without injuries, and injuries could create holes at just about any position.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 29, 2015 13:47:45 GMT -5
Look, I can't begin to claim that I know how the Yankee FO spends their free time. But it's foolish to think that they could swim in that ocean without absorbing some of that hubris. I don't know of anyone in the Yankees FO having been nearly as involved in the world of finance as John Henry, so what was that saying about the glass house and the stones? Henry seems to have had no problem with this decision.
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Post by ryantoworkman on Dec 29, 2015 13:51:45 GMT -5
OregonNorm, your read on the housing crisis is accurate. It was mathematicians who wrote the dirivative models that caused the housing bubble to burst. Middle East and Asian money was flowing into the US housing economy far faster than could be invested through traditional channels. Wall Street turned to academia to help them. They helped them rake in billions, but in the end, the models were not sustainable and it all crashed.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 29, 2015 14:07:48 GMT -5
The way this probably went down (Chapman) is that most of the ML teams simply told Cincy that they weren't interested in trading for him, period. Then NY simply offered their "bag of baseballs" thinking they would be turned down. I'm not sure Boston would have offered a similar deal to NY's since they are very wary of clubhouse culture, PR, ect. Kimbrel, Price & co fit in nicely with Boston. Even Miley was rough around the edges, now he's gone. Do we think Cinc came to Boston after the NY offer to try to "up" the deal? As far as I'm aware, Miley was pissed one time because he was taken out of a game after giving up about 6 ground ball singles and acted like Pedroia would have if he were taken out of the game in similar circumstances. I do not equate losing your temper because of super competitiveness to any kind of locker room problem. I'm sure every player on the team respected him for that or at least understood it. That's all we ever saw from him if my memory is good. We didn't even hear any hearsay.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 29, 2015 14:10:14 GMT -5
What hole is not already covered 3 deep? 9 starters and 4 deep at every position says the likely won't be shopping in 2016. More likely they are selling a pitcher (Buchholz) at the deadline There's a big difference between having names on the depth chart and having productive names on the depth chart. Guys like Travis Shaw are no guarantee to be productive full-ins. I could see them needing help at OF, 1B and 3B even without injuries, and injuries could create holes at just about any position. I agree with this, BUT, many ML teams are scrambling to have capable starters at a given position. Injuries/ineffectiveness can cripple any ML team, including ours. IMO having a Sam Travis in AAA who is really our 3rd 1B on our depth chart is a real luxury. We have 4 capable starting OF's. I admit it gets thin after that, but what team can boast 5 or 6 capable starting OF's. 3B we have Marrero as our 3rd option, not great, but not catastrophic. Travis Shaw may be the key here, if he can continue to produce if/when Hanley or Pablo stumbles.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 29, 2015 14:14:26 GMT -5
Unless you think Chapman should be banned from baseball, then you can't really get all over the Yankees for trading for him. If the guy has a right to work, then teams have the right to employ him. The guy sounds like a scum bag but so are a lot of these guys that we root for across sports. I assume you feel the same way about Josh Lueke and that Red Sox fans should cheer if they signed him simply because he's eligible to play in MLB?
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 29, 2015 14:17:17 GMT -5
Well, I do wonder whether any of the "you have to pay EXTRA to get ELITE talent" people have something new to say after the Yankees got Chapman for less than a bag of baseballs (according to the Deepjohn School of Prospect Valuation). Well, gee. Maybe the Sox should wait for the next ballplayer to be charged with something violent and go get him, the new market inefficiency you seem to be referring to. You know damn well that Chapman was had for a song because he considered toxic by most MLB executives. I'm glad the Sox considered him toxic and after learning about him wanted no part of him.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 29, 2015 14:26:41 GMT -5
The way this probably went down (Chapman) is that most of the ML teams simply told Cincy that they weren't interested in trading for him, period. Then NY simply offered their "bag of baseballs" thinking they would be turned down. I'm not sure Boston would have offered a similar deal to NY's since they are very wary of clubhouse culture, PR, ect. Kimbrel, Price & co fit in nicely with Boston. Even Miley was rough around the edges, now he's gone. Do we think Cinc came to Boston after the NY offer to try to "up" the deal? As far as I'm aware, Miley was pissed one time because he was taken out of a game after giving up about 6 ground ball singles and acted like Pedroia would have if he were taken out of the game in similar circumstances. I do not equate losing your temper because of super competitiveness to any kind of locker room problem. I'm sure every player on the team respected him for that or at least understood it. That's all we ever saw from him if my memory is good. We didn't even hear any hearsay. Although your probably right about Miley not being a problem in the clubhouse, I could never see Pedroia basically going toe to toe with the manager, at least in plain view. There's nothing wrong with being competitive, or even throwing a glove or hitting a cooler (or dugout phone) with a bat, I just think doing a Reggie Jackson/Billy Martin tirade crossed a fine line.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 29, 2015 14:32:29 GMT -5
That's because the manager always does what Pedroia wants and he's not a pitcher. If they pinch hit for him, I wouldn't be surprised if he freaked out.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 29, 2015 16:07:13 GMT -5
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Post by jiant2520 on Dec 29, 2015 16:24:12 GMT -5
Well, I do wonder whether any of the "you have to pay EXTRA to get ELITE talent" people have something new to say after the Yankees got Chapman for less than a bag of baseballs (according to the Deepjohn School of Prospect Valuation). Really?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 29, 2015 16:36:46 GMT -5
There is a huge difference if a player gets into it with another player. Pedroia is one of the team leaders, even then. If another player is not doing something right (& we're talking about Alfredo Aceves here, so it's a possibility), a captain or leader will bring it to his attention. Like a few years ago when Longoria ripped B.J. Upton in the dugout for not hustling. Could you see Longoria blow a fuze at Joe Maddon for any reason?
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 29, 2015 16:49:57 GMT -5
There is a huge difference if a player gets into it with another player. Pedroia is one of the team leaders, even then. If another player is not doing something right (& we're talking about Alfredo Aceves here, so it's a possibility), a captain or leader will bring it to his attention. Like a few years ago when Longoria ripped B.J. Upton in the dugout for not hustling. Could you see Longoria blow a fuze at Joe Maddon for any reason? Sure, if he took him out of the game for a stupid reason like he kept hitting line drives right at everyone, which is pretty much exactly what happened with Miley. Miley was pissed because he was pitching fine and giving up weak singles over and over again. But Maddon wouldn't do something stupid like that. The correct move for the manager is to ask the pitcher if he wants to come out when he is getting unlucky.
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Post by ramireja on Dec 29, 2015 17:50:16 GMT -5
You guys do get that its a trade for 3 years of Kimbrel and 1 year of Chapman right?
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Post by telson13 on Dec 29, 2015 18:04:25 GMT -5
Hahaha! I'd almost forgotten about Aceves. What a powderkeg.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 29, 2015 18:09:47 GMT -5
You guys do get that its a trade for 3 years of Kimbrel and 1 year of Chapman right? Let's hope. If Chapman gets more than 46 games, his FA is delayed a year. The Yankees probably have a buddy (isn't Torre in charge of discipline?) in the league offices who will make sure it's as close to 46 as possible, **while going over**. 50 games will "look" good, and serve the Yankees' best interests. I can almost guarantee that's the final judgment.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 29, 2015 22:38:16 GMT -5
A reflective piece from Baseball Prospectus - this one behind the paywall but well worth the read if you have a subscription. Here's the paragraph that keys that reflection: That bolded phrase is ripped right from the lexicon of the traders on Wall Street, about working the margin on valuations, getting the edge on trades. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... This was a great business move by the Yankees, emphasis on the word business. The piece goes on to echo some of what I've written previously, that this isn't 1950, and that there may be a real price to pay, or not. As a society, we continually decide who we are by the things we value and our actions. Those haven't played out completely so we may not have heard the last of this yet. A little sacrilege here. I'm glad the team passed on this one, and while I disliked having them pay as much as they did for their closer ©, I'm impressed with the decisive way they moved on. I'll feel that way even if Chapman beats them to win the Division title. They did the right thing, not for their business but for who they are, their image. Baseball isn't everything.
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Post by gerry on Dec 30, 2015 3:52:19 GMT -5
You guys do get that its a trade for 3 years of Kimbrel and 1 year of Chapman right? Let's hope. If Chapman gets more than 46 games, his FA is delayed a year. The Yankees probably have a buddy (isn't Torre in charge of discipline?) in the league offices who will make sure it's as close to 46 as possible, **while going over**. 50 games will "look" good, and serve the Yankees' best interests. I can almost guarantee that's the final judgment. Pardon my cynicism, but I have seen this movie many times over the decades. The NYY will get a favorable decision by the NY based MLB, which will be supported by a breathless and sympatico NY based Media.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 30, 2015 8:05:17 GMT -5
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 30, 2015 9:01:35 GMT -5
A caller to MLB radio forcefully and clearly brought up the same double-standard yesterday. That resulted in a lot of double-talk as the hosts stumbled along, trying to make the point about the bargain being too good to pass up.
They never did get to the part about the Dodgers getting hammered for something the Yankees are applauded for, and by the same people.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 30, 2015 10:18:18 GMT -5
There is a huge difference if a player gets into it with another player. Pedroia is one of the team leaders, even then. If another player is not doing something right (& we're talking about Alfredo Aceves here, so it's a possibility), a captain or leader will bring it to his attention. Like a few years ago when Longoria ripped B.J. Upton in the dugout for not hustling. Could you see Longoria blow a fuze at Joe Maddon for any reason? Typically, the "captain or leader" will wait until they're in the clubhouse though.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 30, 2015 10:42:24 GMT -5
Let's hope. If Chapman gets more than 46 games, his FA is delayed a year. The Yankees probably have a buddy (isn't Torre in charge of discipline?) in the league offices who will make sure it's as close to 46 as possible, **while going over**. 50 games will "look" good, and serve the Yankees' best interests. I can almost guarantee that's the final judgment. Pardon my cynicism, but I have seen this movie many times over the decades. The NYY will get a favorable decision by the NY based MLB, which will be supported by a breathless and sympatico NY based Media. Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I see happening. That's why 50 games is so convenient for both MLB and NY...it's a nice, round number that looks tough on the player but has the added benefit of gifting the Yankees an extra year of control. That it rewards a team that traded for a likely (by all accounts) domestic abuser will be of no interest to the media. Hell, Cashman probably already had the skinny on the likely suspension's length, so he knew he'd be getting that extra year. Some shady business.
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Post by tonyc on Dec 30, 2015 10:52:35 GMT -5
Nice coverage and opinions, as usual Oregon. Neither of these would probably happen, but best punishment for both Chapman, and the Yankees would be, if he's not suspended for the year, take him out for the last 49 games, and the postseason. That way the Yankees lose him to free agency and can't benefit as much this year, or trade him. By the way, I have fond memories of tenting up At Mt. Hood, spending several days exploring the coast- my favorite anywhere, and I'm a cold water swimmer- soaking at Breitenbush, and taking a one month workshop at the Ken Keyes Center in Coos bay (human relations/consciousness workshops) in the 80's. Your state, along with Washington and mine in Colorado are my favorite lower 48 for hiking/nature. It'll be interesting when visiting my former home, NY, this summer, to get my in laws take on this affair- both passionate Yankee fans and quite ethical attorneys, one a former assistant DA. Hopefully some women's groups in NY will scream for boycotts, and then when he goes free nobody would sign him, but that wouldn't be the case.
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