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alnipper
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Living the dream
Posts: 619
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Post by alnipper on Feb 2, 2016 11:27:34 GMT -5
I love our major league catching. That being said, I wouldn't mind if the Sox don't give days off. On a few days not behind home plate lets give Swihart a few days at first base. Obviously the top priority is to keep him behind the plate to learn.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 2, 2016 11:43:55 GMT -5
I love our major league catching. That being said, I wouldn't mind if the Sox don't give days off. On a few days not behind home plate lets give Swihart a few days at first base. Obviously the top priority is to keep him behind the plate to learn. It's pretty much a guarantee it doesn't happen soon. They have Shaw already and Swihart isn't a good enough hitter at this point to be a good 1B. |
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Post by ray88h66 on Feb 2, 2016 19:08:47 GMT -5
I love our major league catching. That being said, I wouldn't mind if the Sox don't give days off. On a few days not behind home plate lets give Swihart a few days at first base. Obviously the top priority is to keep him behind the plate to learn. It's pretty much a guarantee it doesn't happen soon. They have Shaw already and Swihart isn't a good enough hitter at this point to be a good 1B. When the guy playing first is Hanley, I wouldn't guarantee anything. If he's bad or hurt, playing Swihart there now and then against a lefty wouldn't be a bad idea. |
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,931
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 2, 2016 19:56:50 GMT -5
It's pretty much a guarantee it doesn't happen soon. They have Shaw already and Swihart isn't a good enough hitter at this point to be a good 1B. When the guy playing first is Hanley, I wouldn't guarantee anything. If he's bad or hurt, playing Swihart there now and then against a lefty wouldn't be a bad idea. Except for the part where where he'd have to learn how to play there when he could be working on his catching or his hitting. And the part where Shaw would probably be better at it than he would be, anyway. The odds of him being useful there are not high enough to make the time investment worthwhile. |
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Post by telson13 on Feb 3, 2016 1:34:04 GMT -5
When the guy playing first is Hanley, I wouldn't guarantee anything. If he's bad or hurt, playing Swihart there now and then against a lefty wouldn't be a bad idea. Except for the part where where he'd have to learn how to play there when he could be working on his catching or his hitting. And the part where Shaw would probably be better at it than he would be, anyway. The odds of him being useful there are not high enough to make the time investment worthwhile. It's an impossible sell at 1b, where he'd have to put up his second half over a full season, and be very slightly fringe-avg defensively to be league average. Now, if he could play 3b and do the same thing, you're starting to talk value. But I still think they should get him as much time as possible behind the dish until (not if) Vasquez shows he's ready for a starting role. If Swihart takes an offensive leap forward to .290/.340/.460 territory and is hitting 15-20 HR, then you've got a conundrum. |
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Post by dirtywater43 on Feb 3, 2016 3:44:45 GMT -5
Swihart's second position should be LF. He's got the speed and athleticism to handle it. Plus he could possibly platoon with Castillo.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 3, 2016 10:24:39 GMT -5
Swihart's second position should be LF. He's got the speed and athleticism to handle it. Plus he could possibly platoon with Castillo. He doesn't need a second position. He's not hitting well enough to need his bat in the lineup every game and there's no reason to give him more things to work on. He has plenty of work to do already. |
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 3, 2016 10:58:34 GMT -5
Swihart's second position should be LF. He's got the speed and athleticism to handle it. Plus he could possibly platoon with Castillo. He doesn't need a second position. He's not hitting well enough to need his bat in the lineup every game and there's no reason to give him more things to work on. He has plenty of work to do already. I wouldn't be so decisive about it. The opportunity is certainly there for Swihart (too many catchers on the roster, tons of question marks on the infield/outfield corners), the ability is there, and while it might not be the ideal thing for his development, it's probably better than riding the bench or being sent back to AAA. I don't think it's the probable outcome, but if Swihart is playing left field a couple times a week at some point in 2016 it really won't surprise me at all. |
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steveofbradenton
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Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Feb 3, 2016 12:02:11 GMT -5
Would any of you be surprised if Blake Swihart hit above .280 with 50 extra base hits, if he had, at least, 450 at bats? I know I wouldn't. He may not do it this year, but I think he is more than capable.
Now I do not want him messing around with a 2nd position this season, but he is enough of an athlete to play leftfield or 1st base down the road. A lot of his value is tied up in him catching. No one knows how the catching will shake out over this season and next, but some of you seem to think Vazquez will eventually wrestle the position away from young Blake. I don't. In time his D will solid. In time his O will be above average.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Feb 3, 2016 12:04:43 GMT -5
He doesn't need a second position. He's not hitting well enough to need his bat in the lineup every game and there's no reason to give him more things to work on. He has plenty of work to do already. I wouldn't be so decisive about it. The opportunity is certainly there for Swihart (too many catchers on the roster, tons of question marks on the infield/outfield corners), the ability is there, and while it might not be the ideal thing for his development, it's probably better than riding the bench or being sent back to AAA. I don't think it's the probable outcome, but if Swihart is playing left field a couple times a week at some point in 2016 it really won't surprise me at all. Yeah especially next year. I don't trust Castillo against right handed pitching. I'd rather have the light hitting Swihart from the left side of the plate out there more often in LF over Castillo versus righties. |
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Post by dirtywater43 on Feb 3, 2016 12:08:50 GMT -5
Would any of you be surprised if Blake Swihart hit above .280 with 50 extra base hits, if he had, at least, 450 at bats? I know I wouldn't. He may not do it this year, but I think he is more than capable. Now I do not want him messing around with a 2nd position this season, but he is enough of an athlete to play leftfield or 1st base down the road. A lot of his value is tied up in him catching. No one knows how the catching will shake out over this season and next, but some of you seem to think Vazquez will eventually wrestle the position away from young Blake. I don't. In time his D will solid. In time his O will be above average. I'd rather have Sam Travis or Travis Shaw at 1B over Swihart. They're the back up 1B in my eyes. There wouldn't be much of a adjustment handling LF, unless you're Hanley Ramirez or Kevin Youkilis, LF should be a easier adjustment for a guy like Swihart. Plus he played LF in high school. |
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Post by mredsox89 on Feb 3, 2016 13:33:12 GMT -5
Unless/until you know that Vazquez is 100% and is ready to catch every day if need be, there should be no movement of Swihart. His upside is tremendous at catcher. If you move him to LF, and especially 1B, his bat no longer plays anywhere near a potential elite level.
If Hanley is a mess at 1B and you have no other choice but to move him, Travis or Shaw should be there.
Now if/when Vazquez is healthy and starting, and if you want to take a chance against righties in the OF instead of Castillo, I could probably be convinced the upside is worth it
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 3, 2016 13:40:30 GMT -5
Would any of you be surprised if Blake Swihart hit above .280 with 50 extra base hits, if he had, at least, 450 at bats? I know I wouldn't. He may not do it this year, but I think he is more than capable. To provide some context, 19 players did that last year and not a single one was a catcher. All got at least 500 PAs, all but one got 550 PAs, and all but 2 got at least 589 PAs. I think you're talking about his perfect world ceiling with .280/50 XBH, at which point, if he's a catcher, he'd be one of the most valuable players in baseball. I don't think that's impossible, but I think if he does that in the next, say, two years, then yes, I'd be very surprised, and if he did it in the next five, I wouldn't necessarily be "surprised" so much as tickled pink that his development pretty much went perfectly in the way player development rarely does. |
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Post by telson13 on Feb 3, 2016 14:38:38 GMT -5
Would any of you be surprised if Blake Swihart hit above .280 with 50 extra base hits, if he had, at least, 450 at bats? I know I wouldn't. He may not do it this year, but I think he is more than capable. Now I do not want him messing around with a 2nd position this season, but he is enough of an athlete to play leftfield or 1st base down the road. A lot of his value is tied up in him catching. No one knows how the catching will shake out over this season and next, but some of you seem to think Vazquez will eventually wrestle the position away from young Blake. I don't. In time his D will solid. In time his O will be above average. Pretty much how I think about it. Defensive versatility is very rarely a bad thing for an individual, and virtually never for the team employing him. I think there is a lot of value in Swihart getting experience at other positions, but not at the cost of his development as a catcher, where he has the most value. I genuinely have little doubt that he settles in as at least the player described above: .280-.300/.340-.360/.425-.475. I also think his upside is substantially greater than that, if he were to move to another position, where he could spend substantially more effort working on his hitting. Looking at his progress since being drafted, it's easy to forget that, by and large, he's gotten better offensively each year, despite graduating levels fairly linearly. His first half-season in MLB is really just a microcosm of his minor league progression. The idea that he's statically "light-hitting" is a mistake imo, because he's shown a very clear ability to make adjustments and evolve. I think he's got Posey upside and a fair chance to reach it, based on work ethic and adaptability. That said, if (when) Vazquez forces the issue with his sublime defense and surprisingly adequate offense, I think it makes sense to get Swihart some reps at positions where his strong arm, athleticism, and work ethic will make him valuable even if his offense is just positionally adequate. I'm sure 1b doesn't fit that criterion, but LF *might*, provided his defense is solid (because his production probably won't be, relative to league average). 3b is the best alternative position for him in my mind, unquestionably, given his plus arm, athleticism, and the relatively lower standard of offensive production (not to mention the possible need of a productive player there). Plus, if for some reason (say Vasquez comes back better than ever and Panda becomes viable again) the Sox were to trade him, he's *way* more valuable if he's got 3b experience than 1b/LF experience...though he'd almost assuredly be traded to take on a C role. And even if he isn't traded, the same could be said for his role in Boston. Following a Patriots-style model of acquiring/developing positionally versatile players is a terrific approach to depth, as long as it doesn't impede development. Holt, Shaw, maybe Mookie, maybe Swihart, Marrero, probably Marco Hernandez...creates a lot of value for team, and players. [/quote] |
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Post by telson13 on Feb 3, 2016 14:46:38 GMT -5
FWIW, Hanley *has* played 3b. I don't get the impression that he's very good over there, but at least he has the arm and fair range. In a pinch, he could take over for Panda and almost guaranteed be better than Panda was last year. Hanley was a sub-par SS, but he was no Jeter...I think his reputation as a "bad" SS is a little overblown, and last year's brutal showing in LF has made people forget that he does have *some* defensive versatility. At 3b, if he hits anywhere near his career norms, he's a valuable player. If he's healthy, I can see him pulling a Kendrys Morales and having a nice comeback year to the tune of .290/.360/.500. As usual with him, health is the key, but that production plays at 1b, 3b, or DH.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Feb 3, 2016 14:53:19 GMT -5
Would any of you be surprised if Blake Swihart hit above .280 with 50 extra base hits, if he had, at least, 450 at bats? I know I wouldn't. He may not do it this year, but I think he is more than capable. To provide some context, 19 players did that last year and not a single one was a catcher. All got at least 500 PAs, all but one got 550 PAs, and all but 2 got at least 589 PAs. I think you're talking about his perfect world ceiling with .280/50 XBH, at which point, if he's a catcher, he'd be one of the most valuable players in baseball. I don't think that's impossible, but I think if he does that in the next, say, two years, then yes, I'd be very surprised, and if he did it in the next five, I wouldn't necessarily be "surprised" so much as tickled pink that his development pretty much went perfectly in the way player development rarely does. I must admit I did not know that even Buster Posey had not accomplished that in 2015. He had an "off" year. .318/19 homers/47 xbh. In his 3 previous years he did better: 2014 - .311/22 homers/52 xbh 2013 - .294/15 homers/50 xbh 2012 - .336/24 homers/64 xbh I'm not saying Blake Swihart will become a Posey, but I do think he will be a well above average catcher offensively. I really wasn't counting on him doing the .280/50 extra base hit thing this year.....but I'm willing to bet if he gets his 450AB that he will accomplish an average of .280 but with at least 40 extra base hits. |
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 3, 2016 15:22:45 GMT -5
To provide some context, 19 players did that last year and not a single one was a catcher. All got at least 500 PAs, all but one got 550 PAs, and all but 2 got at least 589 PAs. I think you're talking about his perfect world ceiling with .280/50 XBH, at which point, if he's a catcher, he'd be one of the most valuable players in baseball. I don't think that's impossible, but I think if he does that in the next, say, two years, then yes, I'd be very surprised, and if he did it in the next five, I wouldn't necessarily be "surprised" so much as tickled pink that his development pretty much went perfectly in the way player development rarely does. I must admit I did not know that even Buster Posey had not accomplished that in 2015. He had an "off" year. .318/19 homers/47 xbh. In his 3 previous years he did better: 2014 - .311/22 homers/52 xbh 2013 - .294/15 homers/50 xbh 2012 - .336/24 homers/64 xbh I'm not saying Blake Swihart will become a Posey, but I do think he will be a well above average catcher offensively. I really wasn't counting on him doing the .280/50 extra base hit thing this year.....but I'm willing to bet if he gets his 450AB that he will accomplish an average of .280 but with at least 40 extra base hits. IMO, Swihart has to become as good of a hitter as Posey to consider moving him to 1B even part time. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 3, 2016 15:36:25 GMT -5
To provide some context, 19 players did that last year and not a single one was a catcher. All got at least 500 PAs, all but one got 550 PAs, and all but 2 got at least 589 PAs. I think you're talking about his perfect world ceiling with .280/50 XBH, at which point, if he's a catcher, he'd be one of the most valuable players in baseball. I don't think that's impossible, but I think if he does that in the next, say, two years, then yes, I'd be very surprised, and if he did it in the next five, I wouldn't necessarily be "surprised" so much as tickled pink that his development pretty much went perfectly in the way player development rarely does. I must admit I did not know that even Buster Posey had not accomplished that in 2015. He had an "off" year. .318/19 homers/47 xbh. In his 3 previous years he did better: 2014 - .311/22 homers/52 xbh 2013 - .294/15 homers/50 xbh 2012 - .336/24 homers/64 xbh I'm not saying Blake Swihart will become a Posey, but I do think he will be a well above average catcher offensively. I really wasn't counting on him doing the .280/50 extra base hit thing this year.....but I'm willing to bet if he gets his 450AB that he will accomplish an average of .280 but with at least 40 extra base hits. And I guess I'm saying that you actually are saying Swihart will become Posey, but you don't realize it. I don't think it's out of the question, but I don't think it's something you plan on. It's not just you or anything, so I'm sorry that I'm singling out your posts. A lot of the talk about moving Swihart to other positions kind of overestimates his bat, I think. It's a good bat, but at another position more than just a little of the time, I think he loses way more of his value than most people are really realizing. |
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Post by jmei on Feb 3, 2016 15:52:09 GMT -5
I would be shocked if Swihart ever hits like peak Posey. That seems like a wildly optimistic scenario, one that just sets you up for disappointment.
Besides, it's not really the case that the better Swihart hits, the more they should look to move him to another position. If Swihart ever hits like Posey, he's an MVP-caliber player at catcher (remember, there are basically zero questions about whether he can be at least adequate defensively there) but a run-of-the-mill All-Star at 1B or LF (Posey has a 139 wRC+ over the last three years, which compares to Freddie Freeman (142 wRC+) or Matt Holliday (137 wRC+)).
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 3, 2016 16:08:17 GMT -5
I would be shocked if Swihart ever hits like peak Posey. That seems like a wildly optimistic scenario, one that just sets you up for disappointment. Besides, it's not really the case that the better Swihart hits, the more they should look to move him to another position. If Swihart ever hits like Posey, he's an MVP-caliber player at catcher (remember, there are basically zero questions about whether he can be at least adequate defensively there) but a run-of-the-mill All-Star at 1B or LF (Posey has a 139 wRC+ over the last three years, which compares to Freddie Freeman (142 wRC+) or Matt Holliday (137 wRC+)). It only makes sense if they want to keep his bat in the lineup while not playing him too much at catcher. But I have a hard time believing he can not only hit that well, but also be able to be a good part-time catcher and part-time 1B. Add in that he has to work on hitting from both sides of the plate, along with all of the extra work that catchers do with advance scouting and getting to know pitchers and that's just an insane amount of extra practice and homework compared to the average player. Something will suffer if he gets spread out that thin. I would not even consider it until he's gotten as good as he can get at catcher. He's still so young and has so much work to do. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 3, 2016 16:39:30 GMT -5
We saw Posey when he was with the San Jose Giants. He was the best player on a team that included Brandon Crawford who was having a spectacular year at that point. It wasn't particularly close. His hitting was so polished - ripping doubles on inside pitches slashing singles to right when pitchers tried to get him away - that it made me laugh. He was ready for SF right then and there, as far as I was concerned. They only kept him in the minors to extend their control over him as far as I could tell. It surely wasn't because he needed more plate appearances. After he ripped apart the PCL to start the next season, they couldn't pretend any longer that he didn't belong.
Swihart has a long, long way to go before he gets near that bat. He's a great athlete and I love watching him play, but he may have one, perhaps two seasons that look like the ones Posey delivers on a regular basis. That's if he keeps working at it really hard.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 3, 2016 16:52:31 GMT -5
Let's lower the bar a little - let's say he hits .280 with only 32 XBH in 450+ PA, then we would definitely want to move Swihart to LF..........wait a second! Brock Holt! has done that each of the last 2 years! Brock Holt! also plays plus defense! Brock Holt! is only 27 years old and in his prime! Brock Holt! just broke the 1/! key on my keyboard.
But seriously - unless 2 of Betts, Bradley, Holt and Shaw get injured, even the upside of Blake Swihart in LF is unlikely to be any better than what is currently on the roster as depth. These other guys are pretty good.
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Post by ray88h66 on Feb 3, 2016 17:42:13 GMT -5
Glad to see a new thread for this. I think some are forgetting the Sox rarely carry 3 catchers. I don't want to see Swihart at AAA. Unless I missed something, Hannigan and CV will be with the team. Also, the talk about Swihart"s hitting should be looked at with the view that the sox didn't want him to play in the bigs till September last year.
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 3, 2016 17:44:09 GMT -5
Glad to see a new thread for this. I think some are forgetting the Sox rarely carry 3 catchers. I don't want to see Swihart at AAA. Unless I missed something, Hannigan and CV will be with the team. Also, the talk about Swihart"s hitting should be looked at with the view that the sox didn't want him to play in the bigs till September last year. He'll rehab in Pawtucket. As he should IMO. |
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Post by ray88h66 on Feb 3, 2016 17:46:18 GMT -5
Glad to see a new thread for this. I think some are forgetting the Sox rarely carry 3 catchers. I don't want to see Swihart at AAA. Unless I missed something, Hannigan and CV will be with the team. Also, the talk about Swihart"s hitting should be looked at with the view that the sox didn't want him to play in the bigs till September last year. He'll rehab in Pawtucket. As he should IMO. That makes sense, I hadn't heard that, thanks. |
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