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2016-2017 International Signing Period
brisox
Rookie
SoxProspects Veteran
Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on Jul 3, 2016 4:34:14 GMT -5
As discussed upthread, sounds like the draftees will get to keep their bonuses and will be eligible to sign for additional bonuses this summer. Aside from the temporary break that will presumably come from having to leave the Red Sox DSL team and sign with another organization (which will probably be more than made up for by any additional bonuses they may receive), it doesn't seem to hurt them much. I'm curious if the players have the option of refusing free agency. Not that they would. But maybe they're unhappy with how MLB treated them and want to stay put. Could they say, no thanks to free agency and stay with the Sox org? No they wont pass on that, plenty of teams will jump in to sign these guys
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 3, 2016 9:55:47 GMT -5
You are completely wrong here AMfox and I am not sure where you are getting this perception [deleted part of quote] 3) These Agents go to all the teams and tell them they must sign a "pool of players" the Red Sox are one of the few teams that have the $ and interest in doing that 4) Our FO International people had no idea that money wass being exchanged in the background, they are told they are getting x players for x$ and it includes the player they really wanted so they are happy to write the check . This is how it works , the Sox didn't invent it, they are a victim of it. Only The team stepping up and taking the heat kept us from big suspensions. Several other teams have done the exact same thing and MLB openly acknowledges this but decided to make an example of only us. This is not justice it is a witch hunt. The Red Sox were under a penalty from MLB. If you are saying that the Red Sox had no idea that (4) was going on, I'm sorry but that isn't reasonable that star players are being paid the same bonuses as JAGs from the same trainers. It wouldn't matter if it went on with teams not subject to a penalty. They took a chance based on "we won't get punished, everybody does it" mentality. Burying your head in the sand is not an excuse. We can all take issue with how the investigation was conducted. However, there is no question that the Red Sox blatantly broke the rules while already being under punishment for willfully exceeding international caps. One would think in that sitation that the international folks (and the Boston folks supervising them) would have more carefully considered the appearance of impropriety of signing two top-30 internationals for short money. Bottom line: the Red Sox broke the rules, got caught, were appropriately punished and we will all now move on to next year's class, when the Red Sox will not be subject to any limitations or penalties.
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Post by borisman on Jul 3, 2016 10:11:02 GMT -5
Could anyone with a BA subscription look up the last 3 years of signing bonuses for top 30 IFA prospects and see if there are any other red flags of low signing bonus by teams with similar limitations as the Sox had? (like the Yankees, Cubs, Rangers, etc) I can't believe we lost so many talented kids from Venezuela especially. Some of them were really starting to heat up.
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Post by borisman on Jul 3, 2016 10:22:51 GMT -5
I don't think next year will matter. Changes will be made sothe Sox won't be able to blow everyone away with their spending spree. I'm sure MBL is hard at work for that one reason alone. I'm still in shock by the size of the penalty. It's like deflate-gate all over again.
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Post by azblue on Jul 3, 2016 11:01:36 GMT -5
The timing of MLB's announcement of the punishment is no coincidence. There was no time for the Red Sox to go through any appeal process that may have been available (if any) or to go to court before the July 2 signing date. No judge would have pushed off the start of the signing period.
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Post by GyIantosca on Jul 3, 2016 12:10:56 GMT -5
How do we know the Sox were appropriately punished when we have nothing to base a past experience on? There is no precedent for this. We can make the same inference the Sox were wearing the Scarlet X for the whole league to see. I wonder if such a terse response from the league would of been made if this was the San Diego Padres? Maybe this was the Red Sox so show the punishment on a "Have" team same as if it was the Yankees. So that I take out the local team and make it about the "Have's".
This definitely got everyone's attention! Just thinking out loud.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 3, 2016 12:49:52 GMT -5
You are completely wrong here AMfox and I am not sure where you are getting this perception [deleted part of quote] 3) These Agents go to all the teams and tell them they must sign a "pool of players" the Red Sox are one of the few teams that have the $ and interest in doing that 4) Our FO International people had no idea that money wass being exchanged in the background, they are told they are getting x players for x$ and it includes the player they really wanted so they are happy to write the check . This is how it works , the Sox didn't invent it, they are a victim of it. Only The team stepping up and taking the heat kept us from big suspensions. Several other teams have done the exact same thing and MLB openly acknowledges this but decided to make an example of only us. This is not justice it is a witch hunt. The Red Sox were under a penalty from MLB. If you are saying that the Red Sox had no idea that (4) was going on, I'm sorry but that isn't reasonable that star players are being paid the same bonuses as JAGs from the same trainers. It wouldn't matter if it went on with teams not subject to a penalty. They took a chance based on "we won't get punished, everybody does it" mentality. Burying your head in the sand is not an excuse. We can all take issue with how the investigation was conducted. However, there is no question that the Red Sox blatantly broke the rules while already being under punishment for willfully exceeding international caps. One would think in that sitation that the international folks (and the Boston folks supervising them) would have more carefully considered the appearance of impropriety of signing two top-30 internationals for short money. Bottom line: the Red Sox broke the rules, got caught, were appropriately punished and we will all now move on to next year's class, when the Red Sox will not be subject to any limitations or penalties. You left out the part where other teams doing the same thing went uninvestigated and unpunished.
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 3, 2016 13:35:58 GMT -5
Find me a similar situation and I will revise my post. It looked funny last July 2, and it still looks funny now.
MLB.com's top 30 list:
Three signings below $1mm. Only one below $600k. Guess who?
According to BA, 42 players signed for $550k and above. Yet, #15 and #22 signed with BOS for half that amount. Doesn't seem strange at all.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jul 3, 2016 15:23:28 GMT -5
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Post by lennsakata on Jul 3, 2016 20:11:29 GMT -5
Interesting, both from Venezuela as well
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jul 5, 2016 9:53:16 GMT -5
It definitely looks like the Sox got a lot more premium talent than anyone else last year who was under restrictions.
In the end, it looks like they got a ticket for going 85 in a 65 when a few others got off free for going 70 in a 65.
Still, How are the Yankees and Rays getting away with the signings they are making this year. That is what does not sit right with me.
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Post by jmei on Jul 5, 2016 10:39:16 GMT -5
Muzziotti signs with the Phillies for $750K, per MLB.com’s Jesse Sanchez.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 5, 2016 12:51:31 GMT -5
To me this is kind of like the pin tar incident with Michael Pineda. Several players use pine tar for grip but he made it so obvious that the sox had to call him out for cheating. The practice of combining bonus money is probably used by several teams but the sox were just so blatant last year the league had to do something. I'm just joining this conversation, but this is a good representation of how I feel about it. I get that we could point the finger a little bit, but when you look at the history of signings you can see how obvious an outlier these signings were. I see wrong doing here, and with that comes a punishment, so be it. One thing I did not see pointed out with the penalty is the lost money. Red Sox lost 5 players who signed $300K each, which equates to a $1.5M fine. While losing those players and this signing period seems appropriate, the $1.5M lost seems way too high for this. I'm not advocating for the kids to lose that money, I just think that should have been a bigger consideration in the punishment.
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Post by homerdante on Jul 5, 2016 13:21:31 GMT -5
To me the most significant comments on this entire matter were by Badler on Speier's podcast. You can argue there is wrong doing of some sort, but fine, ok, change should be institutional and not punitive. By that I mean, in the next CBA, talk to guys like Badler, or insiders closer to the goings on and straighten it out. It really is a deflategate all over again situation. This is the scenario where everyone speeds on this one street in town. Rather than going to the town council and getting it sorted out or announcing enforcement is coming to that street, etc. One random dude on that street who sees someone just barreling along gets pissed, knows a cop, and the cop goes and busts that one guy. It's absurd. Completely and utterly absurd. It's backroom deals, witch hunt, axe to grind territory. It's cowardice. "Not even in the top 10 of most egregious behaviors in international signings history in last 10 years." --Badler paraphrase. "Other teams are pissed, there is no precedent for this, and it could open up a whole can of worms by how it was done." --Badler paraphrase Honestly, this is the sort of thing that makes me want to not be a baseball fan anymore. League is rigged and it's obvious, what's next, NBA stuff? Transparent horrible officiating to setup tv market matchups? And then to drop it day before next signing period after the year of relationships, scouting, bonding, etc. all just got destroyed in less than 24 hours. No shot to appeal, no shot to do anything but take it. Again, complete and utter inside work in the MLB offices. The only way this gets made right to Red Sox team and fans in my opinion is if other top flight International Free Agents are allows to void their contracts due to package deals. If Urias is allowed to become a free agent again, etc. Or the Sox get to appeal and get some major recompense, like huge budget for next year or something. But obviously that will never happen in this country, with the systems in place, the money owning the world the way it does. Nothing to see here, move along and keep your head down.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 5, 2016 13:35:12 GMT -5
Yeah the idea the MLB is some neutral arbiter of justice and the Yankees would've got the same punishment for doing this is pretty much laughable.
No question there was an infraction but equally unquestionable was the MLB's eagerness to go after the Red Sox specifically and hit them hard with a punishment. They can prosecute teams for a number of reasons and picked the Red Sox.
The punishment is nowhere even close to deflategate but this is all clear to me.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 5, 2016 14:17:22 GMT -5
Like Yankees fans wouldn't be screaming if Werner won the commish job and came down on the Yankees. Manfred grew up a Yankees fan. Sorry, but the conspiracies that turn out to be true in every other sport make it easy to believe this one.
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brisox
Rookie
SoxProspects Veteran
Posts: 87
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Post by brisox on Jul 5, 2016 14:19:41 GMT -5
You are completely wrong here AMfox and I am not sure where you are getting this perception [deleted part of quote] 3) These Agents go to all the teams and tell them they must sign a "pool of players" the Red Sox are one of the few teams that have the $ and interest in doing that 4) Our FO International people had no idea that money wass being exchanged in the background, they are told they are getting x players for x$ and it includes the player they really wanted so they are happy to write the check . This is how it works , the Sox didn't invent it, they are a victim of it. Only The team stepping up and taking the heat kept us from big suspensions. Several other teams have done the exact same thing and MLB openly acknowledges this but decided to make an example of only us. This is not justice it is a witch hunt. The Red Sox were under a penalty from MLB. If you are saying that the Red Sox had no idea that (4) was going on, I'm sorry but that isn't reasonable that star players are being paid the same bonuses as JAGs from the same trainers. It wouldn't matter if it went on with teams not subject to a penalty. They took a chance based on "we won't get punished, everybody does it" mentality. Burying your head in the sand is not an excuse. We can all take issue with how the investigation was conducted. However, there is no question that the Red Sox blatantly broke the rules while already being under punishment for willfully exceeding international caps. One would think in that sitation that the international folks (and the Boston folks supervising them) would have more carefully considered the appearance of impropriety of signing two top-30 internationals for short money. Bottom line: the Red Sox broke the rules, got caught, were appropriately punished and we will all now move on to next year's class, when the Red Sox will not be subject to any limitations or penalties. 1) there is no rule about pooling. None, it is a common practice how can you break a rule that does not exist. at most it is "Frowned upon" 2) If you have 2 guys you want who are say 300K each and the agent/ coach says to you you'll have to take these other 3 guys also and the amount will be 700K , you do that . These coaches aren't doing this to line their pockets they are doing it to help fringe kids escape poverty. 3) "the appearance of impropriety" , you sound like a guy who wants to arrest every kid who wears a hoodie to the mall. The International folks were working within the system that existed, they did not break a rule and MLB punished the Sox because they wouldn't throw other teams or the IFO guys under the bus. I am not sure what your background is , or if you have worked in international scouting in these poor countries , but I believe you are missing the absurdity of this penalty , this is worse than deflate gate because THERE IS ACTUALLY A RULE AGAINST DEFLATING BALLS!!
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Post by jmei on Jul 5, 2016 14:47:20 GMT -5
1) there is no rule about pooling. None, it is a common practice how can you break a rule that does not exist. at most it is "Frowned upon"2) If you have 2 guys you want who are say 300K each and the agent/ coach says to you you'll have to take these other 3 guys also and the amount will be 700K , you do that . These coaches aren't doing this to line their pockets they are doing it to help fringe kids escape poverty. 3) "the appearance of impropriety" , you sound like a guy who wants to arrest every kid who wears a hoodie to the mall. The International folks were working within the system that existed, they did not break a rule and MLB punished the Sox because they wouldn't throw other teams or the IFO guys under the bus. I am not sure what your background is , or if you have worked in international scouting in these poor countries , but I believe you are missing the absurdity of this penalty , this is worse than deflate gate because THERE IS ACTUALLY A RULE AGAINST DEFLATING BALLS!! There is a rule against taking actions in order to circumvent the international signing bonus pools ( see p. 269 of the CBA), and this was a pretty textbook example of that. It doesn't really matter that the agents were the ones who proposed the package deals, it's still against the rules to accept them (for example, it doesn't matter if the drug dealer approached you first or if you approached them first-- you still bought the drugs and are subject to the same level of punishment).
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 5, 2016 15:03:33 GMT -5
A selectively prosecuted law is not just.
Furthermore, this is what is in the CBA:
That is so arbitrary and vague, it may as well not even be mentioned. If you're going by the letter of the CBA, they did not fail to submit a contract. And the rule doesn't say anything about submitting incorrect contracts or leaving out additional information. If the rule is important, they should actually mention pooling and outline the penalties for doing it instead of having a catch-all rule that allows the Commissioner to play favorites and come down on teams he doesn't like.
#RedSoxLivesMatter
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 5, 2016 15:38:39 GMT -5
1) there is no rule about pooling. None, it is a common practice how can you break a rule that does not exist. at most it is "Frowned upon" 2) If you have 2 guys you want who are say 300K each and the agent/ coach says to you you'll have to take these other 3 guys also and the amount will be 700K , you do that . These coaches aren't doing this to line their pockets they are doing it to help fringe kids escape poverty. 3) "the appearance of impropriety" , you sound like a guy who wants to arrest every kid who wears a hoodie to the mall. The International folks were working within the system that existed, they did not break a rule and MLB punished the Sox because they wouldn't throw other teams or the IFO guys under the bus. I am not sure what your background is , or if you have worked in international scouting in these poor countries , but I believe you are missing the absurdity of this penalty , this is worse than deflate gate because THERE IS ACTUALLY A RULE AGAINST DEFLATING BALLS!! Bri - Seems to me that you're a little too close to this story and it has affected your objectivity. I do not plan on responding further to the comments in this thread based on emotion or alleged bias against the Red Sox. If further facts come out, I will reassess my position based on such facts.
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jul 5, 2016 17:47:24 GMT -5
I have read where the first $300 k of any signing bonus for the 5 former Red Sox international signings from 2015-16 does not count against a team's international signing cap. Another example of how the Red Sox got screwed. Badler tweeted out a few days ago that what they Red Sox were accused of doing would not make the top 10 of things done by teams to circumvent the international signing restrictions. I hope the Red Sox come back with a vengeance during an uncapped signing period effective July 2, 2017.
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Post by sammo420 on Jul 5, 2016 18:41:00 GMT -5
It seems pretty clear to me that there's a lot of people still pissed off at deflategate (where we're actually [censored]) and letting those feeling spill over and come out in this case where we're pretty obviously guilty. If not for deflategate, I don't think people would be quite as up in arms about this. Although, this is Soxprospects and overreacting is what we do best.
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 5, 2016 19:08:34 GMT -5
Yeah, equating this to deflategate at this point is insulting to Tom Brady and the entire circumstances surrounding deflategate. This NOTHING like deflategate.
Regardless of what else is going on, Sox are in the wrong here. Is the penalty too much? Maybe a bit. Whatever. Are other teams (NYY & TB) apparently doing the same this time around? Maybe, I don't know. But if they are, they should get more severe penalties. The Sox penalties put other teams on notice. But will MLB conduct fear-inducing interviews with these new signees, too? When? What will trigger this? I'd think it would be relatively easy to find out who offered what. If a guy signs with NY or BOS for $300k and they were offered $500k by someone else, it's pretty obvious. Look at what the Sox top guys are getting now - double what they supposedly got from the Sox.
#F&%K Goodell
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Post by 2pacac on Jul 5, 2016 19:29:48 GMT -5
It could be argued that some of the increase in bonuses could be due to a year of development and being seen in the DSL.
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Post by sammo420 on Jul 5, 2016 21:27:07 GMT -5
Yeah, equating this to deflategate at this point is insulting to Tom Brady and the entire circumstances surrounding deflategate. This NOTHING like deflategate. Regardless of what else is going on, Sox are in the wrong here. Is the penalty too much? Maybe a bit. Whatever. Are other teams (NYY & TB) apparently doing the same this time around? Maybe, I don't know. But if they are, they should get more severe penalties. The Sox penalties put other teams on notice. But will MLB conduct fear-inducing interviews with these new signees, too? When? What will trigger this? I'd think it would be relatively easy to find out who offered what. If a guy signs with NY or BOS for $300k and they were offered $500k by someone else, it's pretty obvious. Look at what the Sox top guys are getting now - double what they supposedly got from the Sox. #F&%K Goodell I wasn't comparing as much as connecting. Most Sox fans are also Patriots fans. I think that a lot of sox fanx think the Pats are getting screwed, and they are. Those same fans also think the Sox are getting screwed here and we aren't. Even I don't believe that the penalty would be different for the Yankees if they were caught doing the exact same thing. What I am saying is that I think some people are having trouble looking at the two incidents as that, two separate incidents.
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