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How do you improve the Red Sox
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 23, 2016 3:19:19 GMT -5
Buy low on Sonny Gray (like anyone out of the Top 4), trade everyone in the farm but Keith Couch for Mike Trout, get Pablo to lose weight and win the WS every year for the next decade. Trout and Gray would both be gone in 5 years, at which point there would be pretty much no young talent to speak of. Also, with Trout in the mix, how are you going to extend the Killers B ver. 2.0? And what happens if Price opts out? Trading for Gray and/or Trout are probably the two worst moves for this franchise. The cost would far outweigh the return. This team can do *nothing* but sign their own guys, and they might win the next 10 (though the Cubs might have something to say about it...this may be NYY-Atl 1990s redux). Panda losing weight is pretty much irrelevant: he's not getting his job back from Shaw regardless. I can certainly understand not wanting to trade for Trout and/or Gray, but how can you say pretty much no young talent to speak of in 5 years ? You overlook 5 years worth of drafts and international signings. I love the core of this team and prospects, but do you really believe that all we need to do is re-sign our guys to compete for 10 years? Come on, you know David Ortiz is retiring right? Those Yankee teams made trades and signed free agents.
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Post by burythehammer on May 23, 2016 4:22:33 GMT -5
I like the idea that we couldn't give out extensions if we have Mike Trout (with a team-friendly contract btw) on the books. Since when did we become the Kansas City Royals?
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Post by jimed14 on May 23, 2016 6:22:05 GMT -5
I like the idea that we couldn't give out extensions if we have Mike Trout (with a team-friendly contract btw) on the books. Since when did we become the Kansas City Royals? The reason why the Red Sox can spend what seems like an unlimited amount of money is precisely because they have so much home grown talent on cheap contracts. If they traded for Trout, it would take all four of the top four plus at least one current cheap player like JBJ if not Betts or Bogaerts. The price would likely be so insane that it could never work out. And then they'd be in the position of filling positions through free agency which doesn't seem to work out too well. I love what they're doing now and don't see a reason to stray just to try to become exactly what the Angels are now.
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Post by thursty on May 23, 2016 6:34:10 GMT -5
Although a minor move, I wonder if the Sox could work out a Castillo for Hyun Soo Kim deal with the Orioles. Showalter simply refuses to play him and they tried to send him back to Korea during the spring; but in very limited playing time, he's at least shown some ability to hit MLB pitching. Seems like he could be a viable platoon with Young in LF, and the Orioles do need a 4th (defensive) OF what with Trumbo getting time in RF. Money would need to be equalized.
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Post by mgoetze on May 23, 2016 7:12:05 GMT -5
We can start talking about trading for a pitcher when two of the following three things have happened: -- E-Rod has suffered a physical setback that makes his 2016 contribution questionable -- Buchholz has failed to break out after another 3 or more starts -- Kelly has turned back into a disappointing mediocrity over a decent stretch of starts, at least a handful Or, you know, any of the starters suffers any random medium- to long-term injury. Which is pretty likely, because they throw baseballs hard which is known to be an unhealthy pastime.
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Post by brianthetaoist on May 23, 2016 7:26:05 GMT -5
The only thing the Sox have a really strong incentive to do is to get a decent left fielder. Doesn't have to be a game-changing move, just a solid left fielder (preferably LHH) who can return Holt to super-utility role and extend the bench of the team. Losing two projected starters to injury and suckage has made the team dangerously thin, and Benintendi's probably a 2017 proposition.
The pitching is ok, assuming ERod comes back sometime soon. It's not super deep, but they do have an extra starter who is major league quality.
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pd
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Post by pd on May 23, 2016 8:13:34 GMT -5
The pitching is ok, assuming ERod comes back sometime soon. It's not super deep, but they do have an extra starter who is major league quality. I agree that the pitching, barring a major injury, is probably okay for the regular season, but do they have the top of the rotation talent to compete through multiple rounds of the playoffs?
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Post by Guidas on May 23, 2016 8:23:51 GMT -5
Buy low on Sonny Gray (like anyone out of the Top 4), trade everyone in the farm but Keith Couch for Mike Trout, get Pablo to lose weight and win the WS every year for the next decade. Trout and Gray would both be gone in 5 years, at which point there would be pretty much no young talent to speak of. Also, with Trout in the mix, how are you going to extend the Killers B ver. 2.0? And what happens if Price opts out? Trading for Gray and/or Trout are probably the two worst moves for this franchise. The cost would far outweigh the return. This team can do *nothing* but sign their own guys, and they might win the next 10 (though the Cubs might have something to say about it...this may be NYY-Atl 1990s redux). Panda losing weight is pretty much irrelevant: he's not getting his job back from Shaw regardless. I really find this statement incomprehensible. Five years is not long enough to restock a farm that is currently most talented at the A ball level with one exception (Benintendi)? Really!? So no draft picks, international signings or other trades for the next five years develop and pan out? That seems like a gross exaggeration of reality. Will, say, dealing four or five of the Sox best prospects (if one includes Swihart in that group) for Trout, or 3 of the best 5 plus one from 5-10 for a pitcher such as Nola, Fernandez, Velasquez, or Salazar, Kluber or Carasco if Cleveland falls out of contention, drop the farm's overall rating to below top 20 - definitely. But given the young MLB core and that there are still some players of note who would remain (likely Travis, Dubon, Longhi, Kopech, and a few others) there is ample opportunity to continue success or make more deals. Also consider the haul they would get if, say, Boras and Xander say they are definitely going to Free Agency the winter before his walk year and the Sox decide to trade Xander rather than give him a 10 year deal. The prospect haul would be significant. I am not saying the Sox should definitely make a big-time deal at the deadline - though I am on record as saying I would trade the top 4 guys (Moncada, Espinosa, Benintendi and Devers) right now for Trout. But if there was a time to make such a deal, it would be now/this winter when you have young, good, controllable guys at RF, CF, 3rd, SS, C and long term guys signed for 2nd and 1st/DH and some good pitching signed for at least three years (Price, Rodriguez, Kelly, Wright, Porcello), this would be that time. I am less enthusiastic about "blowing up the farm" for pitching, but again, not all these prospects - even our best and our binkies - are going to be MLB players. Dealing when the value is high can have its benefits as well - especially with all the opportunities to restock while the core is still young.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on May 23, 2016 8:26:07 GMT -5
The pitching is ok, assuming ERod comes back sometime soon. It's not super deep, but they do have an extra starter who is major league quality. I agree that the pitching, barring a major injury, is probably okay for the regular season, but do they have the top of the rotation talent to compete through multiple rounds of the playoffs? The Royals did OK IIRC with a bunch of number 3 type starters. It'x your overall talent that makes the difference in the playoffs and luck, lots of it.
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Post by ryantoworkman on May 23, 2016 8:28:47 GMT -5
7 lineup regulars are in the top 30 for AL OPS! Let me repeat that, 7 lineup regulars are in the top 30 in the AL for OPS. The two spots not represented are C, and LF. I can live with those two spots not over producing as long as the defense there is top shelf, and thus far it has been.
As tempting as it is to want a LF upgrade, I'm staying pat with what they have right now. Swihart will rise up to be league average there and his availability as a 3rd C on the Boston roster is not given the weight it deserves.
I'm also much more bullish on the pitching side of things and see signs the starting group will be a solid 6 person group through year end.
Do nothing at this time. I reserve my time to make another roster statement for the end of June.
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Post by ryantoworkman on May 23, 2016 8:38:32 GMT -5
As an add to the above, the Red Sox team OPS of .844 would place them 20th in the league. Staggering number!!!!
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Post by rjp313jr on May 23, 2016 8:38:33 GMT -5
The problem with trades is the cost is ridiculous, especially in season with so few teams "out of the race". Look at the teams right now who are completely out of he wild card race and would be sellers? Then look at what they have to offer and the cost of it. It's not pretty. Sonny Gray could be a nice buy low guy but he could just as easily be not that guy everyone thought he was. I'm not trading what it would take for a guy like that. This isn't s guy with Cole type stuff. That worries me.
I'd add another power arm to the bullpen if possible and some what reasonable. Like Henry Owens or Johnson for a another top power guy. That helps make your rotation better. You don't need to squeeze extra innings out of a guy like Kelly or Buchholz that way. It's how the Royals got away with ok starting pitching.
Left field is not a need position. It's our weakest position but it's been fine and the offense is top notch as is. If you want to find anything at the deadline, maybe it's a dynamic pinch runner type that you can either stash in AAA until just before September or carry for a month. Those guys get valuable in playoff baseball versus being wastes during the regular season.
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Post by sox fan in nc on May 23, 2016 9:02:34 GMT -5
IMO LF is the black hole. Blake will be a fine defensive LF. He wasn't hitting in Pawt & appears overmatched in Boston. Everyone here knows this offense can't maintain this for the whole year. Reddick seems the perfect fit (not Braun). LHH. One year deal, ect. Benny hasn't exactly lit up Portland, SSS aside. Bullpen is fine with Light @ 101 MPH in Pawt as depth. SP would be too expensive.
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Post by scottysmalls on May 23, 2016 9:03:59 GMT -5
Left field is not a need position. It's our weakest position but it's been fine and the offense is top notch as is. If you want to find anything at the deadline, maybe it's a dynamic pinch runner type that you can either stash in AAA until just before September or carry for a month. Those guys get valuable in playoff baseball versus being wastes during the regular season. The offense is top notch as it is, but that's exactly why improving it would be even better. Offense improves non-linearly so adding a good hitter to a good offense makes an even bigger impact. Further, it doesn't matter where we upgrade, a run scored is as valuable as a run saved, so if we can score more runs by improving LF than we'd save by improving the rotation that's what we should do (assuming equal cost). I do agree though that if the cost is too high we shouldn't do anything, or pursue a more minor potential upgrade like Bruce, not worth gutting the farm.
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Post by jmei on May 23, 2016 9:48:16 GMT -5
In general, they should try to upgrade their weakest position, because that's where they'll likely get the most bang for their buck. As of right now, I think LF is their weakest position, and, for what it's worth, Fangraphs' projections agree. Upgrading LF also has the trickle-down effect of letting Holt return to his super-utility role (where he'd both serve as valuable injury insurance and would allow them to rest their regulars more often). It also should be relatively easy to find a corner outfield bat who can outperform Holt the rest of the season, and there are enough options that they can go high-end (Reddick, Rasmus), overpaid veteran (Gonzalez, Braun, Ethier, Bruce), or mid/low-end (Jon Jay (the guy atop my wishlist), De Aza, Coughlan, etc).
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Post by ryantoworkman on May 23, 2016 9:50:55 GMT -5
IMO LF is the black hole. Blake will be a fine defensive LF. He wasn't hitting in Pawt & appears overmatched in Boston. Everyone here knows this offense can't maintain this for the whole year. Reddick seems the perfect fit (not Braun). LHH. One year deal, ect. Benny hasn't exactly lit up Portland, SSS aside. Bullpen is fine with Light @ 101 MPH in Pawt as depth. SP would be too expensive. In his last week at Pawtucket he had an OBP that was right around .500. Had hit a HR and a couple of doubles. He had got through the negative impact of the demotion and was starting to hit just fine. His Steamer was 88, my hope is he can improve on that to league average without the rigors of FT Catching to hold him back. Reddick would be a great fit, once healthy. My problem with any acquisition is the cost in coming talent for a 3 month rental. I'd rather they work it internally. If they can flip Castillo plus a flier for Reddick, then sign me up, I just don't see the package returning to Oakland being that lean
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 23, 2016 10:31:25 GMT -5
Sam Kennedy said a few days ago that spending money to improve the team is not off the table. The only way that I can interpret that is a trade for a high dollar player. Our weakest position is left field. A high dollar big time solution would be a trade for Trout (outfield alignment can pretty much be done any which way). Benintendi, Devers, Swihart and Castillo is unlikely to be topped but it's not my wallet. Imagine the current lineup minus Swihart plus Trout. Red Sox president Sam Kennedy confirmed after the owners’ meetings last week there’s room to improve a roster that’s already at about $200 million in salaries — adding that after two last-place finishes, ownership is “as committed as ever.” www.bostonherald.com/sports/red_sox/2016/05/red_sox_keeping_open_eye_for_talent_and_aren_t_afraid_to_add_salary
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Post by sox fan in nc on May 23, 2016 10:50:03 GMT -5
Remember a short time back that sign with the blocks, I don't know how to do that, but it meant Stanton. I can't fathom how the Boston media/fan base would be reacting to him now, especially if we gave up a huge package for him (Imagine watching Betts & Bogaerts in Miami). Not saying Trout would have problems, just saying Stanton would have NEVER thought to have these type issues.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on May 23, 2016 10:56:56 GMT -5
I'm repeating my self here but: This team has been the best in the AL because of its farm system. The farm system bailed us out from terrible FA contracts and I want to keep my chips even if some of them will bust. You want to trade for a young number 2 starter? OK good, but who? and for what price? The Shelby Miller price? Please! Young SP is the highest commodity in today baseball, who's the GM who's willing to do that? People should stop this WFAN caller non sense! E-Rod will do the trick and help the team in 2-3 weeks, his injury is not that concerning (we're talking arm/shoulder damage here). Carson Smith won't be back? Guess what? Ross has been amazing so far and Workman will be back in the second half and Hembree has been very good and Pat Light throws gas with an awesome splitter. LF help? Yeah, at the RIGHT PRICE I think they should consider bringing Reddick back but if Bean wants one of our top 10, I'm cool with what we have (a Young/Holt platoon should be league avg and we could afford that offensively) Here's our top 5 prospects: - Moncada: untouchable, the team invest too much money in him to trade him. - Benintendi: our future LFer so no way we trade him. - Devers: I won't sell low on him. - Espinoza: This team only farming weakness has been developping top of the rotation talent and he's our best shot being that so no, not tradable. - Travis: He's our 1st base depth and we know Hanley will hit the DL at some point. I would consider selling high on Dubon, Ockimey, Kopech if an opportunity (Rich Hill/Reddick) presents its self but other than that I won't let the Cafardos of the medias convince me other wise. I've been waiting for too long to see this unique combination of home made roster with unique top talent farm depth to waste it away. Bravo!!! We actually are a first place team, in spite of issues in LF, pitching as inconsistent as most of the top pitchers in baseball, injuries to key players (ERod, Smith, Kelly, Holt, even Hanigan and Shaw). With six MLB starters already vying for five rotation spots, promising pitching reinforcements are still more likely to come from the Farm where some very good talent is working through remaining issues (Elias, Johnson, Owens, Varvaro, Light, Noe, Martin, Mendez, Workman, etc.) I am also willing to wait out the development of Swihart, Hernandez, and maybe a September callup of Benintendi for LF. The rotation, bullpen and defense have a very real shot at continuing to improve over the coming weeks, even as the offense evens out. I would love to have Hill AND Reddick back in Sox uniforms. They could add much, but only if truly needed, which they currently are not, as they will cost alot in $$ and prospects, and potentially block talent.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 23, 2016 11:13:15 GMT -5
Remember a short time back that sign with the blocks, I don't know how to do that, but it meant Stanton. I can't fathom how the Boston media/fan base would be reacting to him now, especially if we gave up a huge package for him (Imagine watching Betts & Bogaerts in Miami). Not saying Trout would have problems, just saying Stanton would have NEVER thought to have these type issues. There are risks with any action, risks with any inaction. Some bigger than others. You could just as easily point out Lars, Cecchini & Middlebrooks. I've never been a Stanton fan because I've always thought of him as a one trick pony but that's coincidental, not an expertise. LOL, I would have signed Carl Crawford. I'd take this risk and that's the topic, how I'd improve the Sox. I actually would be unlikely to execute a smaller trade, the hand we have and the players rising happen to be pretty good. Trout fits in well though, he's still only 24.
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Post by burythehammer on May 23, 2016 12:02:32 GMT -5
Sam Kennedy said a few days ago that spending money to improve the team is not off the table. The only way that I can interpret that is a trade for a high dollar player. Our weakest position is left field. A high dollar big time solution would be a trade for Trout (outfield alignment can pretty much be done any which way). Benintendi, Devers, Swihart and Castillo is unlikely to be topped but it's not my wallet. Imagine the current lineup minus Swihart plus Trout. That package is not getting you anywhere close to Mike Trout. Did you add Castillo as a joke? I mean, you're almost erasing all of the value represented by the first three players by including him and his contract which is basically dead money at this point. The guy can't hit in AAA. Replace Castillo with Mookie or Xander or maybe JBJ and you're getting somewhere. Not saying I would do it, or even that it's totally fair, but even if the Angels decided to trade him, you're not getting a 24 year old inner circle HOFer without overpaying.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 23, 2016 12:16:46 GMT -5
Yup it was a joke.
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Post by dmaineah on May 23, 2016 12:30:15 GMT -5
How do you improve the Red Sox?
Add another Ace to the rotation, another Ace to the Bullpen & a Left Hand Power Hitter to Left Field.
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Post by telson13 on May 23, 2016 12:32:31 GMT -5
Trout and Gray would both be gone in 5 years, at which point there would be pretty much no young talent to speak of. Also, with Trout in the mix, how are you going to extend the Killers B ver. 2.0? And what happens if Price opts out? Trading for Gray and/or Trout are probably the two worst moves for this franchise. The cost would far outweigh the return. This team can do *nothing* but sign their own guys, and they might win the next 10 (though the Cubs might have something to say about it...this may be NYY-Atl 1990s redux). Panda losing weight is pretty much irrelevant: he's not getting his job back from Shaw regardless. I really find this statement incomprehensible. Five years is not long enough to restock a farm that is currently most talented at the A ball level with one exception (Benintendi)? Really!? So no draft picks, international signings or other trades for the next five years develop and pan out? That seems like a gross exaggeration of reality. Will, say, dealing four or five of the Sox best prospects (if one includes Swihart in that group) for Trout, or 3 of the best 5 plus one from 5-10 for a pitcher such as Nola, Fernandez, Velasquez, or Salazar, Kluber or Carasco if Cleveland falls out of contention, drop the farm's overall rating to below top 20 - definitely. But given the young MLB core and that there are still some players of note who would remain (likely Travis, Dubon, Longhi, Kopech, and a few others) there is ample opportunity to continue success or make more deals. Also consider the haul they would get if, say, Boras and Xander say they are definitely going to Free Agency the winter before his walk year and the Sox decide to trade Xander rather than give him a 10 year deal. The prospect haul would be significant. I am not saying the Sox should definitely make a big-time deal at the deadline - though I am on record as saying I would trade the top 4 guys (Moncada, Espinosa, Benintendi and Devers) right now for Trout. But if there was a time to make such a deal, it would be now/this winter when you have young, good, controllable guys at RF, CF, 3rd, SS, C and long term guys signed for 2nd and 1st/DH and some good pitching signed for at least three years (Price, Rodriguez, Kelly, Wright, Porcello), this would be that time. I am less enthusiastic about "blowing up the farm" for pitching, but again, not all these prospects - even our best and our binkies - are going to be MLB players. Dealing when the value is high can have its benefits as well - especially with all the opportunities to restock while the core is still young. If the team is picking (near) last in the first round every year, and trying to sign FAs to fill the spots of inevitable attrition? When it's 5-6 years minimum to develop international talent, and 4-5, if lucky, for HS talent? Unless Nostradamus is your scouting director, no. If you find that incomprehensible, look at the Sox ca. 2012, after years of winning, late picks, and difficult drafts. Or, the Yankees right now. Where do you propose to find low-cost players to fill the many, many spots you'll need to fill in this team in 3-5 years? Unless you're advocating a $250-$300M payroll...
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Post by sox fan in nc on May 23, 2016 12:34:18 GMT -5
I still believe in what we need (which isn't much) is a LHH LF & SP depth. The cheapest way is for rentals as AB & Moncada will be here next year & 2018 respectively. Hill & Reddick are both owed 4 mil ea through the end of the year. Beane won't require or realistically get much for them for reasons already explained. A #2 will cost the farm. Braun will require more than Reddick & so on.
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