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How do you improve the Red Sox
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Post by jdb on May 29, 2016 13:21:02 GMT -5
The only way I trade for a reliever right now is if it's a buy low situation Banister sees something in with a tweak or so. Think Sam Dyson from Miaimi to Texas last year. Come July 31st we'll know who we can count on and if any of the internal options panned out. I believe I saw that Workman is going to rehab soon so maybe he bounces back.m
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Post by ray88h66 on May 29, 2016 13:56:34 GMT -5
I came to the conclusion that "old school fans" are the ones who will always be the advocates of trading prospects for "proven veterans" and you can't convince them otherwise. I mean look at it: They think that ERA is predictive, Win-Loss record of a pitcher is important (he's pitching to the score bro!), RBIs is a skill etc etc...Do you think a guy who believe in this kind of crap will care about aging curve, roster construction or future value? Of course not! This guys would've sold the farm system to get Stanton or Hamels or Gray or whatever the Cafardos of the Boston media tell them are available. I mean, they're using statics from a century ago! so naturally they believe in "clutch" and "pitching wins championships" and "prospects don't pan out so trade them" and naturally they're immune to the changes that affected baseball in the post PED era where veterans decline in a more pronounced fashion, that young talent is the hottest commodity in the sport and things like that. They won't see how this team is built around young talent and even if they don't win it all this year, they have the core to own this division for years to come. They don't understand the randomness of winning in the playoffs. Frankly, it's a waste of time trying to persuade them otherwise and I don't understand why they comment on a frigging prospects forum! They can go to the bleacher report or WEEI or Boston Herald comments section and trade all they want. You are making the mistake of lumping all old school guys into one group. No better than the old school guys lumping all stat guys. I'm old school , but have accepted rbi's for hitters and w's for pitchers mean little. You are what you are complaining about.
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Post by ryantoworkman on May 29, 2016 16:50:16 GMT -5
Big game and runners on base, Vasquez comes to the plate... ...and John Farrell's still the manager so there will be no pinch hit no matter who's sitting on the bench. Except today! 3 Catchers empowers him to do it. Only logical.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,410
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Post by radiohix on May 29, 2016 16:54:46 GMT -5
I came to the conclusion that "old school fans" are the ones who will always be the advocates of trading prospects for "proven veterans" and you can't convince them otherwise. I mean look at it: They think that ERA is predictive, Win-Loss record of a pitcher is important (he's pitching to the score bro!), RBIs is a skill etc etc...Do you think a guy who believe in this kind of crap will care about aging curve, roster construction or future value? Of course not! This guys would've sold the farm system to get Stanton or Hamels or Gray or whatever the Cafardos of the Boston media tell them are available. I mean, they're using statics from a century ago! so naturally they believe in "clutch" and "pitching wins championships" and "prospects don't pan out so trade them" and naturally they're immune to the changes that affected baseball in the post PED era where veterans decline in a more pronounced fashion, that young talent is the hottest commodity in the sport and things like that. They won't see how this team is built around young talent and even if they don't win it all this year, they have the core to own this division for years to come. They don't understand the randomness of winning in the playoffs. Frankly, it's a waste of time trying to persuade them otherwise and I don't understand why they comment on a frigging prospects forum! They can go to the bleacher report or WEEI or Boston Herald comments section and trade all they want. You are making the mistake of lumping all old school guys into one group. No better than the old school guys lumping all stat guys. I'm old school , but have accepted rbi's for hitters and w's for pitchers mean little. You are what you are complaining about.
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Post by mgoetze on May 29, 2016 16:58:50 GMT -5
...and John Farrell's still the manager so there will be no pinch hit no matter who's sitting on the bench. Except today! 3 Catchers empowers him to do it. Only logical. Sorry, but Farrell doesn't follow logic. Yes, it would be logical to also sometimes pinch-hit for a catcher if you are willing to pinch-run for him, but that isn't how Farrell thinks about it at all.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2016 17:14:48 GMT -5
Didn't know where to post this but who goes down when Eduardo is activated from the DL?
Hembree or Marco Hernandez?
My guess is Hernandez and the Sox go back to a 3 man bench, even though it's uncomfortable. The Sox have been pitching a lot of innings out of the bullpen lately.
I'm not sure about this one though. Maybe they Dfa Layne?
Buchholz does give the Sox some innings if the Sox need it though, so Hembree could unfairly get sent down because no one else has options.
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Post by jmei on May 29, 2016 17:39:32 GMT -5
I would DFA Layne.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2016 18:11:15 GMT -5
Yeah I'm really with you from a sense standpoint. Layne has been the worst reliever they had. He has been having a hard time getting lefties out, I believe too. He gives them no innings capability, outside of a blowout and really he can't go more than a inning plus maybe. Just worries me that the Sox don't use that sense and keep Layne around because of the "depth" perspective. Marco and Hembree deserve to be on the roster over Layne. No doubt about it. Edit- "Loogy" relievers are easy to find if the Sox ever wanted to find another one, right?
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Post by burythehammer on May 29, 2016 18:47:14 GMT -5
Is there any chance the Cardinals would make Rosenthal available if they fall out of it by the deadline? Obviously they plan to contend every year, and he's got two years of control left past this season, so probably not, but a man can dream.
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Post by mandelbro on May 29, 2016 19:01:54 GMT -5
Is there any chance the Cardinals would make Rosenthal available if they fall out of it by the deadline? Obviously they plan to contend every year, and he's got two years of control left past this season, so probably not, but a man can dream. I can't see it. 1) He's under contract for subsequent years, as you mentioned, in which the Cardinals intend to compete. 2) The Cardinals have a lot of money so him being a just a reliever isn't impetus to find a trade. 3) They won't fall out of it anyway. They are above .500 right now. With the new wild card setup, they'd have to go on an epic losing streak to be out of it enough to justify scuttling the ship at the deadline. I am loathe to trade for a relief pitcher, but if we have to go there, Arodys Vizcaino is my choice.
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Post by mgoetze on May 29, 2016 19:25:03 GMT -5
[Layne] has been having a hard time getting lefties out, I believe too. Yeah he's faced 33 lefties this year with 10 K, 4 BB and 1 HBP but they've had a .353 BABIP against him so he's obviously broken and will never be able to get lefties out again.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2016 19:57:41 GMT -5
[Layne] has been having a hard time getting lefties out, I believe too. Yeah he's faced 33 lefties this year with 10 K, 4 BB and 1 HBP but they've had a .353 BABIP against him so he's obviously broken and will never be able to get lefties out again. Did I say he was "broken?" Wow this message board is ridiculous. I called him the worst pitcher in the bullpen. I don't know where you come off with that kind of remark after everything I wrote there. Borderline ridiculous.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2016 20:00:19 GMT -5
Obviously Layne had some "bad luck" getting lefties out but when you can't do that ONE JOB you're intended to do.
What does that say about that player?
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Post by telson13 on May 29, 2016 20:04:02 GMT -5
Is there any chance the Cardinals would make Rosenthal available if they fall out of it by the deadline? Obviously they plan to contend every year, and he's got two years of control left past this season, so probably not, but a man can dream. I can't see it. 1) He's under contract for subsequent years, as you mentioned, in which the Cardinals intend to compete. 2) The Cardinals have a lot of money so him being a just a reliever isn't impetus to find a trade. 3) They won't fall out of it anyway. They are above .500 right now. With the new wild card setup, they'd have to go on an epic losing streak to be out of it enough to justify scuttling the ship at the deadline. I am loathe to trade for a relief pitcher, but if we have to go there, Arodys Vizcaino is my choice. Yeah, I agree. If they did trade for Rosenthal the only way it would really be worth it is if they tried him as a starter again (which last I heard he wanted to do). But the Cards have a run differential that says they're better than their record. They have a very good shot at a wild card (Mets/Nats, Pirates, maybe Dodgers looking like the other contenders...two spots for three teams. Don't see the Phillies keeping things up).
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Post by kingofthetrill on May 29, 2016 20:12:54 GMT -5
I feel like we can improve in 3 main areas, all of which scenarios in which we have excess quantity, but lack deep quality.
1. A top/mid rotation starter. Someone reliable other than Price/Wright/Porcello and the return of E-rod.
2. A good reliever, whether a strong high leverage reliever or a good innings eater, or someone that can pitch in a large amount of games.
3. Production out of LF.
For #1, we have Owens, Johnson, and Elias laying around and Buchholz and Kelly trying their best to give the other one the spot. This would be the only spot where I'd consider trading a top prospect, and even then I would not trade Beintendi, Espinoza, or Moncada. Betts, Bradley, and Bogaerts are beyond trading.
For #2 and #3, I'd try to pick out veteran players from losing teams that make more money than the team average. I would mostly consider taking on money and lottery ticket prospects, but depending on the quality of the receiving player, I can probably be talked into giving up a back end top 10 prospect.
For RP we have Smith injured, Uehara aging, Tazawa overused and Kimbrel incapable of pitching more than an inning. We also have many of the pitchers mentioned above that may get moved to a relief role.
For LF we have Holt, Castillo, Young, and now Swihart around.
I won't mention specific names that I'd target because that's for the trade proposal subforum. Realistically I think that Boston will be fine with internal options for one or two of these issues, so I don't see a need to trade some serious prospects. Maybe our draft haul coming up may make some other prospects more expendable.
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Post by mgoetze on May 29, 2016 20:13:54 GMT -5
Wow this message board is ridiculous. I called him the worst pitcher in the bullpen. Yup, and you made it quite clear that you were basing that assessment on a ridiculously small sample size of nonpredictive stats. Indeed this forum is ridiculous, on the one hand you have people clamoring for playoff experience (which doesn't matter in the playoffs) and on the other hand you have people completely dismissing platoon splits (which do matter in the playoffs). Crowned by the suggestion that we DFA Layne now and then just trade for a guy exactly like Layne at the deadline. Of course, we're in such a roster crunch. Can't crush the egos of poor sensitive guys like Hembree and Barnes by optioning them to Pawtucket when they've been doing so well, but hot damn we sure do need another guy for the 8th inning!!!1!
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Post by telson13 on May 29, 2016 20:14:46 GMT -5
Varvaro has been pretty solid in Pawtucket. He's also got s history of MLB success. Ross is very effective against lefties. They could DFA Layne (or trade him for whatever they can get) and not really take a depth hit. Their bullpen isn't as ridiculously good as hoped, but it's still very good, particularly if Barnes keeps pitching well. Clay is a wildcard, but he serves as depth for both 'pen and rotation. I think their only real "need" is more consistency from the starters and a LH LF to platoon with Young. I still like a possible Reddick acquisition, or a salary dump CarGo (provided no significant prospect talent goes the other way).
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2016 20:56:46 GMT -5
Wow this message board is ridiculous. I called him the worst pitcher in the bullpen. Yup, and you made it quite clear that you were basing that assessment on a ridiculously small sample size of nonpredictive stats. Indeed this forum is ridiculous, on the one hand you have people clamoring for playoff experience (which doesn't matter in the playoffs) and on the other hand you have people completely dismissing platoon splits (which do matter in the playoffs). Crowned by the suggestion that we DFA Layne now and then just trade for a guy exactly like Layne at the deadline. Of course, we're in such a roster crunch. Can't crush the egos of poor sensitive guys like Hembree and Barnes by optioning them to Pawtucket when they've been doing so well, but hot damn we sure do need another guy for the 8th inning!!!1! I didn't clamour for anything. I clearly stated what was true. That was that Tommy Layne was the worst reliever in the bullpen. I didn't say he was broken or useless. I don't care how Hembree or Barnes feel about anything but they are better than a "loogy" like Layne at this point. I'm sorry you take offense to small sample size stats that favor my point, by the way.
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Post by larrycook on May 29, 2016 22:02:13 GMT -5
If the starters could go deeper in games, would that make the bullpen better?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2016 22:49:41 GMT -5
If the starters could go deeper in games, would that make the bullpen better? Yes but you got Eduardo Rodriguez coming back with a knee brace and a Joe Kelly who's been averaging just over 5 innings per start while in Boston. So you need a good bullpen in the case of the Sox. Porcello, Wright, and Price have plenty of "innings capability" though.
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Post by cba82 on May 30, 2016 6:43:40 GMT -5
"For LF we have Holt, Castillo, Young, and now Swihart around." -- When Holt is activated, what happens to Left Field? I'm liking Swihart out there more and more, and like the flexibility of having a third catcher on the roster. My guess is that Rutledge goes, and Holt moves back into his old super-utility role.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 30, 2016 6:50:29 GMT -5
"For LF we have Holt, Castillo, Young, and now Swihart around." -- When Holt is activated, what happens to Left Field? I'm liking Swihart out there more and more, and like the flexibility of having a third catcher on the roster. My guess is that Rutledge goes, and Holt moves back into his old super-utility role. Marco Hernandez gets optioned when Holt is activated.
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Post by cba82 on May 30, 2016 9:02:28 GMT -5
"Marco Hernandez gets optioned when Holt is activated." -- Unless he gets optioned when Eduardo Rodriguez is activated.
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Post by jimed14 on May 30, 2016 10:20:28 GMT -5
Wow this message board is ridiculous. I called him the worst pitcher in the bullpen. Yup, and you made it quite clear that you were basing that assessment on a ridiculously small sample size of nonpredictive stats. Indeed this forum is ridiculous, on the one hand you have people clamoring for playoff experience (which doesn't matter in the playoffs) and on the other hand you have people completely dismissing platoon splits (which do matter in the playoffs). Crowned by the suggestion that we DFA Layne now and then just trade for a guy exactly like Layne at the deadline. Of course, we're in such a roster crunch. Can't crush the egos of poor sensitive guys like Hembree and Barnes by optioning them to Pawtucket when they've been doing so well, but hot damn we sure do need another guy for the 8th inning!!!1! I'll also dismiss platoon splits when we have Farrell as the manager because they won't be used correctly. None of the other relief pitchers are unpitchable vs. LHP so Layne is needed less. And nothing drives me more nuts than him coming in vs. one or two lefties who he allows on base and then they bring in Tazawa to make him pitch higher leverage. They may as well let Tazawa pitch the inning clean, because he's a better pitcher, even vs. LHP. At worst, they are equal vs. LHP. Basically, the only pitchers that should be sharing innings with Layne are Barnes and Hembree, but they're both being used in multiple innings so that doesn't work great either.
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Post by jmei on May 30, 2016 11:00:37 GMT -5
Since he joined the Red Sox (2014 to 2016), versus left-handed hitters, Layne has a 2.72 FIP and a 3.11 xFIP (48.2 IP). That's good, but it's not great-- for instance, Tazawa (2.79 FIP, 3.15 xFIP) and Ross (3.13 FIP, 3.11 xFIP) have been roughly just as good versus LHH over that same period of time. Meanwhile, Layne has been basically unplayable versus RHH (5.09 FIP, 5.14 xFIP, '14-'16), which means his role is limited to being the fifth option on the depth chart versus LHH-- basically, a matchup LOOGY in the 6th/7th inning.
Layne is OK in that role, but it's such a limited role that, at least in the long slog of the regular season, I would rather have an extra solid right-handed reliever who is able to go multiple innings (i.e., Barnes or Hembree). That guy should (in theory) take some pressure off of Tazawa/Uehara, and I'm happy to sacrifice some suboptimal plate appearances versus LHH in mid-leverage situation in order to save those guys a half-dozen innings each. With the tendency towards taking starting pitchers out early and one-inning relievers, it's just tough to carry a LOOGY during the regular season, especially when they're already carrying one guy in Buchholz who is limited in his flexibility (I'd imagine he's a true long-man-only who won't pitch in back-to-back games).
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