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Post by brendan98 on Aug 29, 2016 22:37:39 GMT -5
So Deepjohn, I hope you are going to be around to admit you were wrong when Kopech heads off to Instructs after the minor league season ends. I'll say it, there isnt a chance in hell that the Sox are calling up Kopech to pitch in a pennant race/playoffs, it would be fun to see, he is obviously ultra talented but the jump is too big from A ball to the MLB. I'll be the first person to come on and admit I was wrong if Kopech does pitch for the Sox this year, but it's not going to happen.
With regards to the issues Kopech has had, I'm pretty confident they will end up being non issues, and hopefully were valuable lessons learned by a young man.
If there is even a 1% chance that Kipech is a future ace, let alone being mentioned in the same conversation as Nolan Ryan, than the Sox have to take a deliberate approach in developing him. They will have to build up his inning base, continue to develop his control/command as well as his secondary pitches. They have a great opportunity to get him some experience in a MiL playoff atmosphere, send him to instructs to continue his development and then get him some solid competition in the AFL, while also building upon his innings. This kid is too good a prospect to bring up to the MLB on a whim, despite his dominance, that's what it would be coming from A ball.
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Post by ramireja on Aug 29, 2016 23:28:31 GMT -5
He punched a teammate in the face. That is doing something wrong. I'm sure you understand that it could have been self-defense, or provocation, or any number of other mitigating circumstances. We have no evidence to say he did anything wrong. Notably, the Red Sox did not take any disciplinary action against Kopech. I haven't been able to find who the other player was. Although he was said to be a very good friend of Kopech's. But Heyman wrote that a scout he talked to said the other fellow had it coming. Tyler Hill
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Post by telluricrook on Aug 30, 2016 1:30:26 GMT -5
I'm sure you understand that it could have been self-defense, or provocation, or any number of other mitigating circumstances. We have no evidence to say he did anything wrong. Notably, the Red Sox did not take any disciplinary action against Kopech. I haven't been able to find who the other player was. Although he was said to be a very good friend of Kopech's. But Heyman wrote that a scout he talked to said the other fellow had it coming. Tyler Hill It was either Hill or Maybe Acosta?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 30, 2016 6:41:14 GMT -5
Just imagine Kopech in a world where twenty year olds generally got faster with time.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 30, 2016 7:03:28 GMT -5
But that doesn't answer the question: 'will DD call him up if he has 3 more starts like his last 3 starts?' OK. I'll try. No, because: 1) Success in High A does not portend immediate success in MLB. Heck, success in High A does not portend immediate success in Double-A. High-90s heat is going to get you success no matter what at this level, but in the majors, it also needs to be located. Hunter Strickland would probably be happy to discuss this with you if you give him a call. 2) If they were going to do this with a player, they would not do it with one who has had the maturity concerns that Kopech has. I ask you to trust me on this one. 3) As mentioned above, there are long-term issues such as options, years of team control, etc. that play into this. With players like Benintendi and Moncada, maybe they're not completely "fully-baked", so to speak, this minute, but they're almost certainly going to be midway through 2017. If Kopech is indeed a starter, it's entirely possible that he'll need two more full seasons in the minors to get there, and by bringing him up now, you're unnecessarily starting to burn options next year. 4) They likely need to DFA someone to put him on the roster, assuming that Moncada and one of LaMarre and Castillo get added and Holaday is DFA. I wouldn't lose sleep over DFAing Williams Jerez, but I would want to be certain that this player would be a key contributor. 5) Might be somewhat repetitive, but I really think some of you are seriously underappreciating the jump you would be asking this player to make in putting him into high-leverage situations in a pennant race in September. That's a lot to ask a guy who has been in Triple-A, never mind two levels down. I don't think it's impossible. I would, however, be stunned and consider it an enormous, unnecessary gamble. DDo is not stupid. His M O is that he trades to get to where he wants. And he wrecks farm systems to get there. With the tigers the owner was in his 80's, he wanted to win NOW. I do not think that will happen with the sox, because henry and the group want a product on the field EVERY year that has a good chance to win and fill the seats. He traded a very good young outfielder to get kimbrel. The other 3 appear to be throw in's at this point. Outfielders are a lot easier to replace than a quality closer. Benintendi now fills that hole. Drew for Anderson. The jury is still out. Drew appears to be a proven major league starter. Maybe not clay k but for the most part he has pitched pretty well. Anderson is not tearing up A ball. He does appear to me a little like the little B that the Yankees had a couple years ago. He got hurt and has since fizzled. Small frame and throws hard., not typically a body that holds up to the majors. They moved benintendi up and gave him a chance and it seems to have worked out. But, two things here come to mind. One he had an established position to play in the outfield. Two He had a low strikeout rate in the minors to give him a chance at the bigs. He does not appear to be over matched. Moncada I do not think comes up this year for the same two reasons. Where does he play? 2nd is blocked and he has little experience at 3rd or outfield. Lot of pressure to put on a young player. Second, he appears to be a little over matched in AA, with a high strikeout rate. They have started the clock on benintendi and it looks like it will work out. Moncada can wait until next year when they figure out where he plays and can he make adjustments with his swing. Kopech, I know deepjohn pours his heart and soul into his numbers and I appreciate his efforts, but A to the high majors is a HUGE jump. I am not sure if he has pitched a total of 100 innings yet in pro ball. The maturity factor I intrepid more as experience. He needs time to grow into his body. He needs time to build up his arm strength. Lastly he needs a chance to have his head grow into his body and become a pitcher not a thrower. DDo does not have to rush kopech and can wait until next year to see if in AA he is pitching the same dominating way, then he can look at moving him up to the bigs. But I think the front office is more in tune with what chris said. probably 2 years before he is in the bigs.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 30, 2016 9:23:11 GMT -5
I don't think he's getting called up no matter what he does but I would like to add that we have no idea if he can handle it mentally or not. Nor do we have any idea if his teammate had it coming. Maturity and ability to handle pressure aren't really the same thing. You can be immature and make bad decisions yet be able to handle pressure and failure just fine. We don't know anything about him in that regard.
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Post by deepjohn on Aug 30, 2016 14:28:33 GMT -5
FYI, so as not to post too much on this thread, and perhaps discourage others from their fair say (BTW, great posts by everyone!), I've taken to posting over in the SOSH thread. Of course, I won't be able to resist posting here, too, I'm betting. And mark your calendars everyone! Tomorrow is Kopech day!
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 30, 2016 15:04:45 GMT -5
Bye Felicia
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Post by michael on Aug 30, 2016 15:28:47 GMT -5
Ryan; is that little B from NYY past Manny Banuelos, currently in the LAA of A?
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Post by telson13 on Aug 30, 2016 15:46:37 GMT -5
True. The question then becomes, can they Carlos Martinez him? But yeah, ideally their pen is sufficient as constituted. Problem is, with Kimbrel at the back end, it looks like it's not. So is it worth burning a 40-man spot? Idk...the 40th spot usually isn't carrying the most crucial player, but you never wanna lose a good talent to the rule 5. What are we talking about, exactly? Kopech signed his first contract at 18 (June 2014) so I think he's protected from being lost for nothing in the Rule 5 draft for five years. So to protect him from the December Rule 5 draft of 2019, when he's 23, he would need to be added to the 40 man then if he's not already on it. Correct? Putting him on the 40 man now would not change that "clock". Right? Are you talking about removing him from the 40 man by subjecting him to waivers? The only other 40-man "clock" I know of is his service clock, but that's for purposes of arbitration and free agency, and has nothing to do with being "forced to lose him for nothing if he's not ready". Am I missing something (as usual )? I'm talking about losing someone else because they boot him from the 40 (or don't put him on) because Kopech is on it. Kopech isn't close to being rule-5 eligible.
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Post by jmei on Aug 30, 2016 16:55:50 GMT -5
OK. I'll try. No, because: 1) Success in High A does not portend immediate success in MLB. Heck, success in High A does not portend immediate success in Double-A. High-90s heat is going to get you success no matter what at this level, but in the majors, it also needs to be located. Hunter Strickland would probably be happy to discuss this with you if you give him a call. 2) If they were going to do this with a player, they would not do it with one who has had the maturity concerns that Kopech has. I ask you to trust me on this one. 3) As mentioned above, there are long-term issues such as options, years of team control, etc. that play into this. With players like Benintendi and Moncada, maybe they're not completely "fully-baked", so to speak, this minute, but they're almost certainly going to be midway through 2017. If Kopech is indeed a starter, it's entirely possible that he'll need two more full seasons in the minors to get there, and by bringing him up now, you're unnecessarily starting to burn options next year. 4) They likely need to DFA someone to put him on the roster, assuming that Moncada and one of LaMarre and Castillo get added and Holaday is DFA. I wouldn't lose sleep over DFAing Williams Jerez, but I would want to be certain that this player would be a key contributor. 5) Might be somewhat repetitive, but I really think some of you are seriously underappreciating the jump you would be asking this player to make in putting him into high-leverage situations in a pennant race in September. That's a lot to ask a guy who has been in Triple-A, never mind two levels down. I don't think it's impossible. I would, however, be stunned and consider it an enormous, unnecessary gamble. DDo is not stupid. His M O is that he trades to get to where he wants. And he wrecks farm systems to get there. With the tigers the owner was in his 80's, he wanted to win NOW. I do not think that will happen with the sox, because henry and the group want a product on the field EVERY year that has a good chance to win and fill the seats. He traded a very good young outfielder to get kimbrel. The other 3 appear to be throw in's at this point. Outfielders are a lot easier to replace than a quality closer. Benintendi now fills that hole. Drew for Anderson. The jury is still out. Drew appears to be a proven major league starter. Maybe not clay k but for the most part he has pitched pretty well. Anderson is not tearing up A ball. He does appear to me a little like the little B that the Yankees had a couple years ago. He got hurt and has since fizzled. Small frame and throws hard., not typically a body that holds up to the majors. They moved benintendi up and gave him a chance and it seems to have worked out. But, two things here come to mind. One he had an established position to play in the outfield. Two He had a low strikeout rate in the minors to give him a chance at the bigs. He does not appear to be over matched. Moncada I do not think comes up this year for the same two reasons. Where does he play? 2nd is blocked and he has little experience at 3rd or outfield. Lot of pressure to put on a young player. Second, he appears to be a little over matched in AA, with a high strikeout rate. They have started the clock on benintendi and it looks like it will work out. Moncada can wait until next year when they figure out where he plays and can he make adjustments with his swing. Kopech, I know deepjohn pours his heart and soul into his numbers and I appreciate his efforts, but A to the high majors is a HUGE jump. I am not sure if he has pitched a total of 100 innings yet in pro ball. The maturity factor I intrepid more as experience. He needs time to grow into his body. He needs time to build up his arm strength. Lastly he needs a chance to have his head grow into his body and become a pitcher not a thrower. DDo does not have to rush kopech and can wait until next year to see if in AA he is pitching the same dominating way, then he can look at moving him up to the bigs. But I think the front office is more in tune with what chris said. probably 2 years before he is in the bigs. Friendly advice-- if it's not immediately obvious who you're referring to, you should consider using a player's full last name rather than abbreviating it. I think I figured out who "clay k" (Clayton Kershaw) and "little B" (Manny Banuelos) are, but it took me a minute, and those are not really straightforward references.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 30, 2016 17:39:30 GMT -5
Ryan; is that little B from NYY past Manny Banuelos, currently in the LAA of A? Right on point. I have not seen where he is and how he is doing?
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 30, 2016 17:41:04 GMT -5
Ryan; is that little B from NYY past Manny Banuelos, currently in the LAA of A? Right on point. I have not seen where he is and how he is doing? lmgtfy.com/?q=Manny+Banuelos
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 30, 2016 17:56:20 GMT -5
DDo is not stupid. His M O is that he trades to get to where he wants. And he wrecks farm systems to get there. With the tigers the owner was in his 80's, he wanted to win NOW. I do not think that will happen with the sox, because henry and the group want a product on the field EVERY year that has a good chance to win and fill the seats. He traded a very good young outfielder to get kimbrel. The other 3 appear to be throw in's at this point. Outfielders are a lot easier to replace than a quality closer. Benintendi now fills that hole. Drew for Anderson. The jury is still out. Drew appears to be a proven major league starter. Maybe not clay k but for the most part he has pitched pretty well. Anderson is not tearing up A ball. He does appear to me a little like the little B that the Yankees had a couple years ago. He got hurt and has since fizzled. Small frame and throws hard., not typically a body that holds up to the majors. They moved benintendi up and gave him a chance and it seems to have worked out. But, two things here come to mind. One he had an established position to play in the outfield. Two He had a low strikeout rate in the minors to give him a chance at the bigs. He does not appear to be over matched. Moncada I do not think comes up this year for the same two reasons. Where does he play? 2nd is blocked and he has little experience at 3rd or outfield. Lot of pressure to put on a young player. Second, he appears to be a little over matched in AA, with a high strikeout rate. They have started the clock on benintendi and it looks like it will work out. Moncada can wait until next year when they figure out where he plays and can he make adjustments with his swing. Kopech, I know deepjohn pours his heart and soul into his numbers and I appreciate his efforts, but A to the high majors is a HUGE jump. I am not sure if he has pitched a total of 100 innings yet in pro ball. The maturity factor I intrepid more as experience. He needs time to grow into his body. He needs time to build up his arm strength. Lastly he needs a chance to have his head grow into his body and become a pitcher not a thrower. DDo does not have to rush kopech and can wait until next year to see if in AA he is pitching the same dominating way, then he can look at moving him up to the bigs. But I think the front office is more in tune with what chris said. probably 2 years before he is in the bigs. Friendly advice-- if it's not immediately obvious who you're referring to, you should consider using a player's full last name rather than abbreviating it. I think I figured out who "clay k" (Clayton Kershaw) and "little B" (Manny Banuelos) are, but it took me a minute, and those are not really straightforward references. Thank you for your friendly advice. You did not agree or disagree with anything that was written except pick at my references for 2 names. Clay K has been used in several spots on this board. Sorry I could not remember how to spell Banuelos. I had hoped someone would recognize the reference and low and behold they did. I am much oblige to them. In the future I will try to remember who I am writing to. Advice taken
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 30, 2016 21:13:27 GMT -5
It was either Hill or Maybe Acosta? I don't want to imply anything regarding the other player you mentioned, but if you're saying Acosta because of his current situation, I can tell you that it has nothing to do with Kopech.
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Post by Coreno on Aug 31, 2016 23:21:29 GMT -5
So, uh...
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Post by deepjohn on Aug 31, 2016 23:52:25 GMT -5
Ignore random walks. One hit, which turns into a homer, makes for a valuable lesson. Don't give in.
Next start Sept. 5. Back to normal(ized). And then the call up, if Wright's and Erod's troubles continue, as a starter.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 1, 2016 0:11:44 GMT -5
Ignore random walks. One hit, which turns into a homer, makes for a valuable lesson. Don't give in. Next start Sept. 5. Back to normal(ized). And then the call up, if Wright's and Erod's troubles continue, as a starter. Try here.
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Post by deepjohn on Sept 1, 2016 0:14:14 GMT -5
Ignore random walks. One hit, which turns into a homer, makes for a valuable lesson. Don't give in. Next start Sept. 5. Back to normal(ized). And then the call up, if Wright's and Erod's troubles continue, as a starter. Try here. Thanks, but I think you are the true comic genius.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 1, 2016 1:34:43 GMT -5
He punched a teammate in the face. That is doing some. thing wrong. I'm sure you understand that it could have been self-defense, or provocation, or any number of other mitigating circumstances. We have no evidence to say he did anything wrong. Notably, the Red Sox did not take any disciplinary action against Kopech. I haven't been able to find who the other player was. Although he was said to be a very good friend of Kopech's. But Heyman wrote that a scout he talked to said the other fellow had it coming. Punching someone MAY be wrong, but certainly not always. Have you never been in a fight? Have you never lost your temper with some knucklehead, or had to defend yourself or someone else?? This may become rare with age but fistfights are common among kids, and are preferable by far to knives, guns and other weapons. On this, IMO, Kopech gets a pass. If it is a pattern, he doesn't. I have not seen a pattern
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Post by burythehammer on Sept 1, 2016 5:44:56 GMT -5
"Don't give in, just issue that sixth straight walk and be taken out of the game anyway."
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Post by thebogeyman on Sept 1, 2016 7:59:20 GMT -5
I'm sure you understand that it could have been self-defense, or provocation, or any number of other mitigating circumstances. We have no evidence to say he did anything wrong. Notably, the Red Sox did not take any disciplinary action against Kopech. I haven't been able to find who the other player was. Although he was said to be a very good friend of Kopech's. But Heyman wrote that a scout he talked to said the other fellow had it coming. Punching someone MAY be wrong, but certainly not always. Have you never been in a fight? Have you never lost your temper with some knucklehead, or had to defend yourself or someone else?? This may become rare with age but fistfights are common among kids, and are preferable by far to knives, guns and other weapons. On this, IMO, Kopech gets a pass. If it is a pattern, he doesn't. I have not seen a pattern I'm 33, and I can say I have never been in a fight or even come close to it. I don't think that makes me high and mighty. In fact, I would assume that puts me in the normal category. I would guess most people have never been in a fight. If it was self-defense, I think he or the Sox may have done some damage control, so that seems unlikely. That said, the mere fact that he got in a fight is not really the issue. It is his lack of judgment and ability to understand the incredible opportunity he has and the consequences of his actions.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 1, 2016 8:03:17 GMT -5
There are actually two days off between the end of the season and the start of the playoffs, which makes the timing slightly off. With his short outing yesterday, I wonder if they'll bring him back on three days rest on Sunday so that he's ready for Game two on regular rest? Or will they be content giving him seven days of rest, knowing he'll have the chance to boost his innings total in the AFL?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 1, 2016 8:53:40 GMT -5
There are actually two days off between the end of the season and the start of the playoffs, which makes the timing slightly off. With his short outing yesterday, I wonder if they'll bring him back on three days rest on Sunday so that he's ready for Game two on regular rest? Or will they be content giving him seven days of rest, knowing he'll have the chance to boost his innings total in the AFL? I think they'll just keep the rotation. They listed Monday as TBD on the probables in the Salem game notes, so they were clearly contemplating starting Kopech in game 1. He did still throw 38 pitches in the 2/3 of an inning, so it's not like he was like 10 pitches in and then there was a 30 minute rain delay that chased him or something and he needs to throw.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 1, 2016 8:59:07 GMT -5
There are actually two days off between the end of the season and the start of the playoffs, which makes the timing slightly off. With his short outing yesterday, I wonder if they'll bring him back on three days rest on Sunday so that he's ready for Game two on regular rest? Or will they be content giving him seven days of rest, knowing he'll have the chance to boost his innings total in the AFL? I hate to ask this, but are you being sarcastic and talking about the major league roster? lol
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