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Post by grandsalami on Oct 2, 2016 13:01:04 GMT -5
“@brianmacp: In other words, had the Red Sox sent Pomeranz back, Henry Owens would have been making starts in pivotal games in August and September.”
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 2, 2016 13:01:29 GMT -5
“@brianmacp: That offer was extended to the Red Sox in early August, after the trade deadline had passed, Manfred said.”
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Post by amfox1 on Oct 2, 2016 13:02:52 GMT -5
Per Scott Lauber -
Rob Manfred: MLB offered Red Sox a chance to rescind Drew Pomeranz trade. Red Sox declined. At that point, MLB didn't feel comfortable altering terms of a trade between two clubs.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Oct 2, 2016 13:07:28 GMT -5
For all the carping on here about the Kimbrel trade, I dislike the DPom trade even more. They gave up an elite prospect and didn't get elite talent back. One of BB's best P prospects is a lot to give up for .6 B-Ref WAR, which is what Pomeranz gave them before getting hurt.
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Post by bosox81 on Oct 2, 2016 13:29:01 GMT -5
Bringing Pomeranz from the NL West to the AL East and who had not pitched past 86 innings in the previous three seasons already carried extreme risk. Too much risk imo to give up one of the top pitching prospects. But then when you find out that there's even more risk because you have been withheld medical information, if they offer you a chance to get out of that deal, you have to take it.
I know that Pomeranz probably helped us to win about 3 or 4 more games than, say a Henry Owens. But I really hope we didn't give up Espinoza for four wins in one year.
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Post by kevfc89 on Oct 2, 2016 13:33:25 GMT -5
I said elsewhere at the time of this trade that they should have targeted a different starter at the deadline, someone like Wade Miley. I thought a Miley could approximate the value that Pomeranz would give you while allowing you to acquire him for much cheaper and hold onto an elite talent like Espinoza. Well, not only was Miley cheaper, he was also better (and predictably healthier); Miley has pitched to a 3.79FIP/3.34xFIP with Baltimore while Pomeranz threw to a 4.87FIP/3.90xFIP with Boston. Orioles smartly bought low, while the Sox bought Pomeranz at his highest point of value.
That trade is another example of DD just not being the type of GM I would ever want running my team. You should do everything you can to hold onto an Espinoza, and if you do choose to expend him you better be right about who you are acquiring. The fact that there were better, cheaper options out there shows that he did not exhaust every avenue before giving up arguably the best young pitching prospect in baseball. This and the Kimbrel trade...just ugh.
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Post by WindyCityRedSox169 on Oct 2, 2016 13:37:21 GMT -5
Bringing Pomeranz from the NL West to the AL East and who had not pitched past 86 innings in the previous three seasons already carried extreme risk. Too much risk imo to give up one of the top pitching prospects. But then when you find out that there's even more risk because you have been withheld medical information, if they offer you a chance to get out of that deal, you have to take it. I know that Pomeranz probably helped us to win about 3 or 4 more games than, say a Henry Owens. But I really hope we didn't give up Espinoza for four wins in one year. Is it worth it for a world series ring? It is too early to tell if that will be the case but that 3 or 4 games might prove to be the difference in the play-in game/not making the playoffs to making the playoffs with a guaranteed shot at the world series. I still don't like the trade but if his starts ensured us the playoffs and we wind up winning it all it was worth it IMO.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 2, 2016 13:43:18 GMT -5
Bringing Pomeranz from the NL West to the AL East and who had not pitched past 86 innings in the previous three seasons already carried extreme risk. Too much risk imo to give up one of the top pitching prospects. But then when you find out that there's even more risk because you have been withheld medical information, if they offer you a chance to get out of that deal, you have to take it. I know that Pomeranz probably helped us to win about 3 or 4 more games than, say a Henry Owens. But I really hope we didn't give up Espinoza for four wins in one year. Is it worth it for a world series ring? It is too early to tell if that will be the case but that 3 or 4 games might prove to be the difference in the play-in game/not making the playoffs to making the playoffs with a guaranteed shot at the world series. I still don't like the trade but if his starts ensured us the playoffs and we wind up winning it all it was worth it IMO. If that's the only criteria for being a good trade, what if they traded every prospect in the entire organization for a replacement level player in the same year that they won the WS? Would that be as smart of a move as playing Papi at SS and Mookie at catcher if they ended up winning despite that?
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Post by manfred on Oct 2, 2016 14:00:27 GMT -5
Is it worth it for a world series ring? It is too early to tell if that will be the case but that 3 or 4 games might prove to be the difference in the play-in game/not making the playoffs to making the playoffs with a guaranteed shot at the world series. I still don't like the trade but if his starts ensured us the playoffs and we wind up winning it all it was worth it IMO. If that's the only criteria for being a good trade, what if they traded every prospect in the entire organization for a replacement level player in the same year that they won the WS? Would that be as smart of a move as playing Papi at SS and Mookie at catcher if they ended up winning despite that? Well, it is hard to imagine winning with Papi at shortstop. I think the answer is yes, generally, winning WS makes moves worth it. It is hard, though, to look at a single move and saying it was the difference maker. If, though, one can make the case Pomeranz helped the Sox win 3-4 games (I'm not, mind you, cause I don't know), then, if they win it, that feels like a good trade. The point of accumulating prospects is to make a good team in years to come that might win a title. If I can trade odds of winning in 2020 for odds of winning this year -- that seems like a no-brainer. Or to turn the reductio ad absurdum: if valuable prospects are so important, why not trade Papi, Betts, etc for huge returns of A-ball pitchers? Because winning now is always better.
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Post by pedey on Oct 2, 2016 16:17:21 GMT -5
I was shocked to find out that the Sox had the chance to rescind the trade; and more shocked when they found of they dind't. However, much more information has surfaced about Pomeranz's arm issues since early August. Is it too late? Could the Sox still rescind the trade? If I had the chance, I would do it in a heartbeat.
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Post by Smittyw on Oct 2, 2016 16:46:42 GMT -5
So we were shafted out of our best pitching prospect and the only redress would have been reversing the trade with the deadline already gone and no way to address the resulting hole in their rotation (an obvious nonstarter for Dombrowski). Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
Screw Preller.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 2, 2016 17:53:32 GMT -5
I'm disappointed that the Red Sox didn't get the deal rescinded. Maybe it was during the time Pomeranz was pitching well, and they didn't feel they could chance it. Too bad he didn't break down when the Sox were given the chance to reverse the deal. I have a feeling they're going to regret not rescinding it.
For all of the complaining about the Kimbrel deal I think this one will wind up being far worse.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 2, 2016 20:48:11 GMT -5
Folks, it's really simple - if they'd rescinded the trade, Owens was going to be getting those starts instead of Pomeranz. That would have been immensely stupid.
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Post by bigpupp on Oct 2, 2016 21:39:11 GMT -5
Not surprising that they declined that offer. Just sad to see that MLB couldn't work out a deal where the Sox got some sort of compensation - even in the form of a comp pick or international signing money
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Post by beasleyrockah on Oct 2, 2016 22:04:07 GMT -5
I'd love to know if they made the decision to stick with the trade before or after the Wright injury. He was injured on the 7th, so that could certainly fall under "early August", but if it was before his injury they could've plugged in Buchholz as the Pomeranz replacement behind Price/Porcello/Wright/Eduardo.
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Post by kyla13 on Oct 3, 2016 0:25:42 GMT -5
I'd love to know if they made the decision to stick with the trade before or after the Wright injury. He was injured on the 7th, so that could certainly fall under "early August", but if it was before his injury they could've plugged in Buchholz as the Pomeranz replacement behind Price/Porcello/Wright/Eduardo. If indeed, the Wright injury made them decide not to rescind the trade, it just makes the Wright pinch running decision more exasperating than it is already. But oh well, we're the Al East champs so let's celebrate and get pumped up for October baseball!
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Post by tizzle on Oct 3, 2016 1:59:51 GMT -5
The way the league handled this is a frigging disgrace. By the time we realized the injury and had a chance to rescind, the deadline had passed and the Sox had no option to replace him. Even as someone who didn't like the deal in the first place, I can't fault the team for not taking that offer.
San Diego pulled out and out fraud in a way that completely screwed with the competitive balance of MLB. The league's answer was to give the most innocuous "punishment" they could think of.
And the answer to the Red Sox, who were the victims of it was essentially "oh well, San Diego's fraud really got the better of you, huh? Too bad for you."
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Post by dcsoxfan on Oct 3, 2016 5:27:09 GMT -5
Dave Dombrowski would have made this trade even if he had had the medicals. Or he would have traded Espinoza for a different middle of the rotation starter.
He and John Henry felt they HAD to win this year, and they were willing to trade two elite prospects to do it. Just don't be surprised if the farm system takes a further hit this offseason. The fact that Pomeranz and Kimbrel Added only 2 WAR to a team that won its division by 4 games (and made the playoffs by 7) won't teach them anything.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 3, 2016 8:22:32 GMT -5
Folks, it's really simple - if they'd rescinded the trade, Owens was going to be getting those starts instead of Pomeranz. That would have been immensely stupid. It wasn't even a legitimate attempt to make the trade right. Of course they were never going to take it, meaning it wasn't really a choice.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 3, 2016 9:11:18 GMT -5
Folks, it's really simple - if they'd rescinded the trade, Owens was going to be getting those starts instead of Pomeranz. That would have been immensely stupid. It wasn't even a legitimate attempt to make the trade right. Of course they were never going to take it, meaning it wasn't really a choice. I don't necessarily disagree. I was responding to those who were incredulous that the Red Sox didn't take the opportunity to rescind the trade.
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Post by bosox81 on Oct 3, 2016 9:22:32 GMT -5
I would like to know what DDo would respond if he was asked whether he would have made the trade even if he was shown the full medicals. I'm with dcsoxfan on this. I think he would've made the trade regardless.
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pd
Rookie
Posts: 239
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Post by pd on Oct 3, 2016 12:07:45 GMT -5
Let's not forget that we have a young, reasonably successful, cost controlled starter for two more years. We didn't trade Neo for just this season.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,931
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 3, 2016 12:48:26 GMT -5
Bringing Pomeranz from the NL West to the AL East and who had not pitched past 86 innings in the previous three seasons already carried extreme risk. Too much risk imo to give up one of the top pitching prospects. But then when you find out that there's even more risk because you have been withheld medical information, if they offer you a chance to get out of that deal, you have to take it. I know that Pomeranz probably helped us to win about 3 or 4 more games than, say a Henry Owens. But I really hope we didn't give up Espinoza for four wins in one year. The NL West to AL East thing isn't relevant for him, and in fact, as a guy who had dominated 3 and 4 hitters relative to 7 through 9 he had the Lester profile of a guy who is not only relatively better in a tougher division, but relatively better in the post-season than the regular. There was absolutely a risk that he would fade in the stretch and not be that much better than the 5th starter types some of us wanted to get instead. However, it now looks like we may have an elite LHR for the playoff run instead. And I still think he's a #2 the next two years and, moreover, one who can pitch like a #1 in the post-season.
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Post by ramireja on Oct 3, 2016 13:17:02 GMT -5
Not surprising that they declined that offer. Just sad to see that MLB couldn't work out a deal where the Sox got some sort of compensation - even in the form of a comp pick or international signing moneyThis right here. I mean I get that MLB can't work some sort of deal where we get Neo back, but in exchange have to part with some lesser prospect. Who is to assign value to the prospects involved in that case? BUT, draft picks and international signing slots do have fairly well-defined value attached to them, at least financially. I don't see why MLB could have made a decision to compensate with us with one of those things. The Padres deserved to be punished AND we deserved some compensation even if only the form of a 2nd round draft pick. Only one of those things happened, and barely.
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Post by bosox81 on Oct 3, 2016 13:25:57 GMT -5
Let's not forget that we have a young, reasonably successful, cost controlled starter for two more years. We didn't trade Neo for just this season. This is my hope. It's why I said I hope it wasn't just for a few good starts this season. My concern is with how the injury affects his role past this season.
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