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Alex Rodriguez to retire on Friday, August 12
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Post by pasadenasox on Aug 7, 2016 22:04:03 GMT -5
Good riddance.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 7, 2016 22:27:35 GMT -5
With a lot of the famous PED guys we know when or about when they started. Bonds was PO'd a about McGwire and Sosa getting a lot of attention in 1998 and that drove him to the needle. Canseco filled in the blanks for us on McGwire. Clemens started juicing in 1997 or 1998. But with A-Rod there's a bit of mystery to it. There's been media speculation that he started with steroids as a HS kid. It's reasonable to wonder whether the overwhelming majority of his 696 HRs were powered by juice.No it isn't.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 7, 2016 22:44:00 GMT -5
With a lot of the famous PED guys we know when or about when they started. Bonds was PO'd a about McGwire and Sosa getting a lot of attention in 1998 and that drove him to the needle. Canseco filled in the blanks for us on McGwire. Clemens started juicing in 1997 or 1998. But with A-Rod there's a bit of mystery to it. There's been media speculation that he started with steroids as a HS kid. It's reasonable to wonder whether the overwhelming majority of his 696 HRs were powered by juice.No it isn't. And you know this because....?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 8, 2016 6:52:26 GMT -5
Because PEDs or no PEDs, Alex Rodriguez is one of the ten most talented players ever and probably more like top five.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 8, 2016 10:07:45 GMT -5
I miss steroids... Didn't taint anything for me... Games were exciting. The best players were still the best players. I don't know why we wouldn't want our players to get healthy faster. The morally hypocrisy of it all bothers me. So we draw the line at steroids and HGH but allow other things be them procedures or supplements or drugs.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 8, 2016 13:08:03 GMT -5
Because PEDs or no PEDs, Alex Rodriguez is one of the ten most talented players ever and probably more like top five. OK, literally I can see it your way. I'm not willing to say that A-Rod would have been a minor leaguer without his PEDs, but there's no way he smashes 696 homers. I think he might have hit 400 plus or so. It's really hard to tell, because what PEDs does is help you stay in peak condition at all times, which is not a natural thing. There's no way he bashes 55 homers/season during his best seasons. Maybe he hits 40 those seasons. Maybe some of his shots carried over the wall with the help of his PEDs that otherwise would have been at the warning track. He had excellent natural talent, probably HOF talent, but I don't think he'd be in the top 5 of all-time in HRs, though.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 8, 2016 13:10:41 GMT -5
I miss steroids... Didn't taint anything for me... Games were exciting. The best players were still the best players. I don't know why we wouldn't want our players to get healthy faster. The morally hypocrisy of it all bothers me. So we draw the line at steroids and HGH but allow other things be them procedures or supplements or drugs. That's awful. So we should tell our kids in high school. Hey, want to get ahead? Go cheat. Do something unhealthy for your body and if you want to stay clean, don't bother because there's no level playing field for you. I don't really care to see baseball degenerate into slow pitch softball. I hope someday my little boy wants to become a major league baseball player if he wants to be, but I sure as hell don't want him taking steroids, growing his head to Barry Bonds type proportions, so he can be the best incredible hulk in baseball.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 8, 2016 13:28:38 GMT -5
He will likely be the DH for Tampa next year. He will only cost MLB minimum.
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wb93
Rookie
Posts: 36
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Post by wb93 on Aug 8, 2016 14:33:50 GMT -5
I miss steroids... Didn't taint anything for me... Games were exciting. The best players were still the best players. I don't know why we wouldn't want our players to get healthy faster. The morally hypocrisy of it all bothers me. So we draw the line at steroids and HGH but allow other things be them procedures or supplements or drugs. Really? Steroids have very harmful side effects. The risk is only outweighed when dealing with serious illnesses. If every player knows that they need to take steroids to be competitive, you will literally have players choosing money over their long-term health. And then you'll have minor leaguers taking them to try to make it in the majors. And then you'll have HS/College kids taking them to try to get drafted. So you'll have tens of thousands of athletes, most of which will never play professionally, taking drugs with nasty risk profiles and many cases of tragedy as cancers and other ailments claim lives early. And you'll have tons of scumbags selling these drugs to kids, claiming that their cocktail works best. It's nasty business, and should be illegal.
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wb93
Rookie
Posts: 36
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Post by wb93 on Aug 8, 2016 14:36:12 GMT -5
Because PEDs or no PEDs, Alex Rodriguez is one of the ten most talented players ever and probably more like top five. I don't buy this for a second. Too many steroid-creations turned into nothing once the drugs were taken away. If he was juicing at 16, there is no way to know what he would have been.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 8, 2016 15:38:40 GMT -5
I miss steroids... Didn't taint anything for me... Games were exciting. The best players were still the best players. I don't know why we wouldn't want our players to get healthy faster. The morally hypocrisy of it all bothers me. So we draw the line at steroids and HGH but allow other things be them procedures or supplements or drugs. Really? Steroids have very harmful side effects. The risk is only outweighed when dealing with serious illnesses. If every player knows that they need to take steroids to be competitive, you will literally have players choosing money over their long-term health. And then you'll have minor leaguers taking them to try to make it in the majors. And then you'll have HS/College kids taking them to try to get drafted. So you'll have tens of thousands of athletes, most of which will never play professionally, taking drugs with nasty risk profiles and many cases of tragedy as cancers and other ailments claim lives early. And you'll have tons of scumbags selling these drugs to kids, claiming that their cocktail works best. It's nasty business, and should be illegal. Playing professional football is way less healthy than taking steroids or HGH. Just saying.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 8, 2016 16:39:08 GMT -5
Because PEDs or no PEDs, Alex Rodriguez is one of the ten most talented players ever and probably more like top five. OK, literally I can see it your way. I'm not willing to say that A-Rod would have been a minor leaguer without his PEDs, but there's no way he smashes 696 homers. I think he might have hit 400 plus or so. It's really hard to tell, because what PEDs does is help you stay in peak condition at all times, which is not a natural thing. There's no way he bashes 55 homers/season during his best seasons. Maybe he hits 40 those seasons. Maybe some of his shots carried over the wall with the help of his PEDs that otherwise would have been at the warning track. He had excellent natural talent, probably HOF talent, but I don't think he'd be in the top 5 of all-time in HRs, though. How many home runs would Babe Ruth have hit if the league wasn't segregated? How many Ks would Koufax have had if the mound wasn't eight feet high? How many hits would Pete Rose have if he hadn't been gulping amphetamines down by the handful? The answer is: we don't know and we will never know. An egg cannot be un-scrambled. You can guess forever at what A-Rod's numbers might have been, but we know for a fact what they are. And they're just about the best we've ever seen.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 8, 2016 16:46:17 GMT -5
We all know how everyone feels about steroids. This is the 100th time it has been argued. Some people think performing enhancing drugs don't enhance performance, others don't like encouraging kids to do them.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 8, 2016 17:50:38 GMT -5
OK, literally I can see it your way. I'm not willing to say that A-Rod would have been a minor leaguer without his PEDs, but there's no way he smashes 696 homers. I think he might have hit 400 plus or so. It's really hard to tell, because what PEDs does is help you stay in peak condition at all times, which is not a natural thing. There's no way he bashes 55 homers/season during his best seasons. Maybe he hits 40 those seasons. Maybe some of his shots carried over the wall with the help of his PEDs that otherwise would have been at the warning track. He had excellent natural talent, probably HOF talent, but I don't think he'd be in the top 5 of all-time in HRs, though. How many home runs would Babe Ruth have hit if the league wasn't segregated? How many Ks would Koufax have had if the mound wasn't eight feet high? How many hits would Pete Rose have if he hadn't been gulping amphetamines down by the handful? The answer is: we don't know and we will never know. An egg cannot be un-scrambled. You can guess forever at what A-Rod's numbers might have been, but we know for a fact what they are. And they're just about the best we've ever seen. Well if Babe Ruth was responsible for segregating the leagues I'd blame him or discredit him. It wasn't his doing. Nor did Koufax raise the mound himself and declare that the league have a huge strike zone. A-Rod's decision to take steroids and unlevel the playing field for himself was his doing. And I'm sorry, amphetamines aren't quite the same thing as steroids. The only thing I agree with you on is that we can only guess at the numbers, but we'll never know. So while you tout Bonds as the all-time HR king, I'll put him at 762* and declare Hank Aaron the all-time HR king at 755 with no steroid help.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 8, 2016 19:32:16 GMT -5
How many home runs would Babe Ruth have hit if the league wasn't segregated? How many Ks would Koufax have had if the mound wasn't eight feet high? How many hits would Pete Rose have if he hadn't been gulping amphetamines down by the handful? The answer is: we don't know and we will never know. An egg cannot be un-scrambled. You can guess forever at what A-Rod's numbers might have been, but we know for a fact what they are. And they're just about the best we've ever seen. Well if Babe Ruth was responsible for segregating the leagues I'd blame him or discredit him. It wasn't his doing. Nor did Koufax raise the mound himself and declare that the league have a huge strike zone. A-Rod's decision to take steroids and unlevel the playing field for himself was his doing. And I'm sorry, amphetamines aren't quite the same thing as steroids. The only thing I agree with you on is that we can only guess at the numbers, but we'll never know. So while you tout Bonds as the all-time HR king, I'll put him at 762* and declare Hank Aaron the all-time HR king at 755 with no steroid help. First off, the whole "Babe Ruth didn't segregate the league" (he merely condoned it) stuff is a complete non-sequitur. We're talking about how good A-Rod actually was, not how good of a person we think he is. Whatever level of responsibility Babe Ruth has for segregation, it can't be denied that it delegitimizes his numbers to some extent. Secondly, just go ahead and give Hank Aaron 1000 home runs. Give him a million. If we're just making stuff up, go nuts.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 8, 2016 19:45:34 GMT -5
NM
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 8, 2016 19:58:15 GMT -5
First off, the whole "Babe Ruth didn't segregate the league" (he merely condoned it) stuff is a complete non-sequitur. We're talking about how good A-Rod actually was, not how good of a person we think he is. Whatever level of responsibility Babe Ruth has for segregation, it can't be denied that it delegitimizes his numbers to some extent. Secondly, just go ahead and give Hank Aaron 1000 home runs. Give him a million. If we're just making stuff up, go nuts. That doesn't make sense. What should Babe Ruth have done? Start up and finance his own integrated league? Maybe while we're at it let's blame Ted Williams for the Red Sox being the last of the 16 major league teams to bring up an African American player. I don't have to make up a home run total for Hank Aaron. He had 755, none of them with the aid of steroids. I don't think it's that big a stretch to think that without his steroids Bonds wouldn't matched that. As far as how good actually A-Rod was, we'll never really, really know. I think he would have been really good minus the steroids, perhaps among the best. But he wouldn't have been as good without the steroids. He certainly wouldn't have had 696 home runs. He might have hit 45 homers in his peak seasons rather than 57. We'll never know for sure. To you steroids is nothing but perhaps a character flaw. For you to pretend that it has zero impact on the game is disingenuous. No, steroids won't turn a minor leaguer into a superstar, but it can turn him into a major leaguer. And it can turn a superstar into a superman. It can also turn a fringy major leaguer who is honest and has integrity into a minor leaguer because he's not doing that stuff. I really hate arguing about steroids and its impact on the game. It's cheating and sends a terrible message that in order to compete you need to cheat to win.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 9, 2016 7:45:37 GMT -5
I'm not saying steroids are GOOD... And I don't want to big things down with moral bs since there are a million double standards in sports that make that argument kind of silly while they condone all the other crap. So let's take steroids out of it. HGH helps athletes heal faster and stay healthier and we won't let them use them? That's silliness. So many other things are allowed but not that. It makes little to no sense. It should be embraced as a method of healing the body.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 9, 2016 11:49:32 GMT -5
I'm not saying steroids are GOOD... And I don't want to big things down with moral bs since there are a million double standards in sports that make that argument kind of silly while they condone all the other crap. So let's take steroids out of it. HGH helps athletes heal faster and stay healthier and we won't let them use them? That's silliness. So many other things are allowed but not that. It makes little to no sense. It should be embraced as a method of healing the body. In 50 years every pitcher will get a new synthetic UCL implanted every offseason and every person alive will be taking some sort of anti-aging drug cocktail daily, and it will be impossible to explain to young people why anyone thinks Barry Bonds did anything wrong.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 9, 2016 13:42:50 GMT -5
I'm not saying steroids are GOOD... And I don't want to big things down with moral bs since there are a million double standards in sports that make that argument kind of silly while they condone all the other crap. So let's take steroids out of it. HGH helps athletes heal faster and stay healthier and we won't let them use them? That's silliness. So many other things are allowed but not that. It makes little to no sense. It should be embraced as a method of healing the body. In 50 years every pitcher will get a new synthetic UCL implanted every offseason and every person alive will be taking some sort of anti-aging drug cocktail daily, and it will be impossible to explain to young people why anyone thinks Barry Bonds did anything wrong. The audacity of people pointing out the dangers of the side effects of prescription and illegal drugs for children who see their only chance at a great life is by taking more of them than other kids.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 9, 2016 14:11:31 GMT -5
Really? Steroids have very harmful side effects. The risk is only outweighed when dealing with serious illnesses. If every player knows that they need to take steroids to be competitive, you will literally have players choosing money over their long-term health. And then you'll have minor leaguers taking them to try to make it in the majors. And then you'll have HS/College kids taking them to try to get drafted. So you'll have tens of thousands of athletes, most of which will never play professionally, taking drugs with nasty risk profiles and many cases of tragedy as cancers and other ailments claim lives early. And you'll have tons of scumbags selling these drugs to kids, claiming that their cocktail works best. It's nasty business, and should be illegal. Playing professional football is way less healthy than taking steroids or HGH. Just saying. Not really. Steroids cause severe early atherosclerosis, leading to heart attacks and strokes.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 9, 2016 14:17:04 GMT -5
I do get the moral ambiguity around steroids vs stimulants vs creatine vs surgery vs etc. It's all a spectrum, and there are inequities everywhere. The line has been drawn somewhat arbitrarily.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 9, 2016 14:20:39 GMT -5
In 50 years every pitcher will get a new synthetic UCL implanted every offseason and every person alive will be taking some sort of anti-aging drug cocktail daily, and it will be impossible to explain to young people why anyone thinks Barry Bonds did anything wrong. The audacity of people pointing out the dangers of the side effects of prescription and illegal drugs for children who see their only chance at a great life is by taking more of them than other kids. I think his point is more that technological progress and the "new normal" is going to completely ablate peoples' ability to relate to the current angst over steroids.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 9, 2016 14:21:13 GMT -5
I do get the moral ambiguity around steroids vs stimulants vs creatine vs surgery vs etc. It's all a spectrum, and there are inequities everywhere. The line has been drawn somewhat arbitrarily. The line seems to be drawn exactly where it needs to be in order for people to minimize the accomplishments of players they didn't like in the first place.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 9, 2016 14:30:09 GMT -5
Seeing the very peculiar kind of hell Efimova had to go through during the Olympics made me realize we tend to overdo way too much on the sheer anger when it comes to steroids or stuff like that.
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